Since my knowledge about religion is limited, I think it would be wise of me to keep out of this discussion. But I don’t see what is the argument here. I think we had a similar post before and most of the Hindus here (including ZZ I think)agree that Sikhism is NOT a sect of Hinduism but is a religion in its own right. The point I think is that if anyone is bringing this issue to the fore then it is purely of a political nature – thats why the need to show that there are major differences. There can be two distinct religions with striking similarities (at least culturally), as in the case of Sikhism and Hinduism. So that doesn’t mean that one is the sect of another. So if the people who are arguing that Sikhism is a sect of Hinduism, have a political agenda, one can also argue that the people who are deliberately trying to show major differences have a political agenda too !!
I dont think it will be difficult to get singular 'narak' on basis of internet search or looking at index of sggs in book, whatever, if u want me to do that. English translation translates 'narak' in this line as hell. It is also not difficult to get some more references to Hindu mythology in sggs, apart from pralhad that i already gave. Of course, sggs does not talk of adam and eve and jesus and solomon and david. the mythology it talks of whether 8.4 million births or whatever is rooted in the land, or hindu mythology.
I would not bother to argue unless u are going to tell me ridiculous theory of equidistance which does not hold either religiosly or historically. If u are going to tell me that Sikhism is different from Hinduism like Christianity is different from Judaism, well.. I am fine with that.
P.S. I did not see BK's post when I was posting, well.. almost what I say. The people who do not know difference between Divali and Holi are giving lectures on Hinduism and Sikhism. Well.. we deserve better.
[This message has been edited by ZZ (edited October 25, 2000).]
BK, I understand what you are saying. I come in only when people start superficial discussion on GGS based on their word searches and counts of many times the word Ram has appeared in GGS. I am not a very learned person about GGS, in fact from what I have understood so for about it is I will never comprehend all of it but i am certainly better than people who come here with word counts all figured out under their arms to prove that Sikhs are essentially Hindu.
I also don't have a problem if some people feel closer to their Hindu friends because of their family background or culture. Most fo the cultural traditions are influenced by the majority culture. Lot of our religio-cultural behaviour in the West(going to Gurdwara's on Sundays, eating langar on chairs, going to Gurdwara's on 31st december etc) are influence of westren dominant culture. So we have influences from Hindu culture that we grew up with. big deal.
I come in only when people start superficial discussion on GGS based on their word searches and counts of many times the word Ram has appeared in GGS.
The use of word "Ram" for God is very important because Gurus didn't mind refering to God in Hindu way...in fact by using Hindu name "Ram" in my opinion Gurus are saying that there is no difference, Hindus also worship the same God that i am refering to ...there is one God and you can worship it which ever way you want it. In Islam Muhammad gave a different name to his God "Allah" then other two Abrahmical religions but in Sikhism Gurus used the same name as used by hindus which is very significant.
Why did you think Govind Singh called God "Shiva" which is a name of "Hindu God of War", when he could have called any other name...he felt that Shiva also represented the same one God and Hinduism and Sikhism ultimately lead to the same God. Calling God Shiva is very "significant"....i will love to hear your opinion on why he called it Shiva instead of calling it "Wahe guru" or come up with a seperate name for God...
I don't think Guru Nanak set out to start a new religion...he was trying to reform Hinduism, which he found mired in caste and meagingless ritual and he was doing what Kabir has tried to do 100 years ago.
BTW, people have right to interpret, question and form their own opinion based on what they see and read...if you are offended by it, so be it, not to question something is to go aganist fundamental principals of Sikhism, Guru Nanak questioned everthing from giving water to sun to wearing Jannu.
[This message has been edited by Rani (edited October 25, 2000).]
I don't think Guru Nanak set out to start a new religion...<<
If you are right then all following Gurus and sikhs were wrong. They made some thing that was not supposed to be. Now you are more in sync with some of our Muslim friends who say the same thing.
Tell me, why did Guru Nanak gave his pothi(writings) and his clothes to second Guru Angad Dev in a ceremony clearly called, passing on of gurgadi, and then bowed in front of him(Angad)considering him his Guru. Guru Nanak "died" shortly after that. he clearly established a "panth" by continuing the lineage.
If we accept your argument. All Later gurus went against Nanak's "intention" by propagating a new "panth". So all Guru were wrong and only you have gotten this enlightenment a day before diwali night.
In my view Rani, either you are not a Sikh or you are too eager to be Hindu again. It is your choice whatever works for you. But don't slander Sikhism to fit your personal preferences.
BombayKid: Now you see who has the political motive of proving that Sikhism is nothing but a sect of Hinduism who, according to our enlightened sikh Rani, was not supposed to be in the first place. huh. Then we complain why sikhs are this and that....
About Shiva. You tell me why Kabir would call God Allah and Nanak would call him Khuda? If you can find answer to this you can find answer to other zillion names God is addressed by in GSS.
Here is more about God is one.which one? Ram? Shiva? Allah? or Chandi devi?
tudh bin dooja naahi koye. tooN kartar kare so hoye. tera jor teri man taik. sada sada japp Nanak aik.
Jo deesay so tera roop
gunn nadhaan govind anoop.
Of course I don't expect you guys to read it as it is in GSS. You can be contended with transaltions by dime a dozen scholars practicing their english on GGS.
To Me message is clear and I can read it at every page of GSS.
Now that it is clear that you two are not in for a serious discussion on Gurbani but with a political motive of denying Sikhs their separate identity and religion may be I should take BK's advice.
Bombaykid: if I want to practice my separate religion and keep my identity and language, is it my basic human emotion and hence is my basic human right or is it a political motivated thought of mine?
[This message has been edited by ChannMahi (edited October 25, 2000).]
[quote]
Originally posted by ChannMahi:
**
Tell me, why did Guru Nanak gave his pothi(writings) and his clothes to second Guru Angad Dev in a ceremony clearly called, passing on of gurgadi, and then bowed in front of him(Angad)considering him his Guru. Guru Nanak "died" shortly after that. he clearly established a "panth" by continuing the lineage.
**
[/quote]
Such ceremaonies are neither new nor unheard of in other situations when gurus run a peeth or like.
[quote]
Originally posted by ChannMahi:
*Here we have people trying to understand gurbani but can't get past the "names". What s pity.
*
[/quote]
It is u that is not going to get past the names. Where does yoga, practiced widely by Sikhs seeking salvation, originate, where does concept of naam-jap, originate, where does concept of mokhsha, and going beyond cycles of birth and re-birth, originate, why meat cooked by muslims is forbidden to sikhs if there was a kind of similarity that certain tribe claims. All you would say is that sikhism is monotheist so calls god by several names. Does 'ek sat vipra bahuda vadanti' ring the bell. 'twam vishnu, twam vayu, twam... ' i forgot the rest, where even concept of god which is called by wise men all over by different names but is same. This concept is there all over in shankara's writings. I can quote some if you want me to. It is interesting to compare it with Jap ji sahib.
there is massive contribution of sikh gurus and it is in social realm. however, philosophy of gurus is not different from vedanta at all.
Yoga is practciced by Sikhs widely?
Which planet do you live on? Yoga in Sikh community is summed up be 3 words..Harbhajan Singh Yogi.
In a way you are right, nothing originated after whatever was discovered by Hinduism centuries ago. Everything is a copy of that blah blah blah. Now go and preach that to your muslim and christian friends.
I don't have time to go on with this discussion that has been going on since the day Nanak refused Janeyoo. there is no end to it. You have made up your mind and I as a Sikh have made up my mind. With your and Rani's recent statements about Sikhism and gurus in particular when you try to defend Sikhism on this board by bundling up with Hinduism, people should note that you are not a friend of Sikhs but an enemy who shows one face to muslims and turns over and shows the other to Sikhs. The concept is very simple: Tell muslims that how Sikhs and Hindus are friends and how Sikhs have been enemies of Muslims over saving Hinduism then turn over to Sikhs and say look idiots, Muslism are your enemeies, take oyur turban and kirpan off as you guys are nothing but a sub group of ours so shut up and sit down. I would say it is not a new approach but have been employed by clever brahmins from the day one so keep it up. As long as there are sikhs like Rani who have not yet cut the naaRoo this approch will always work for you.
I am talking of sikhs seeking salvation. In fact if you go to www.sikhnet.com, there is an entire discussion forum on kundalini yoga.
You have made up your mind. Surprise! Isn’t it. Otherwise everyone was thinking that you are open minded on these issues. Here comes a bloke who thinks that Hindus throw color on each other on Divali and still this ignoramous goes on type 500 word essay on Hinduism and come his supporters.
internet searches or library checks, i am at least attempting to back my assertions with writings in sggs. What are you doing? Are you going to check the books and what it says? Nope! You are just going to make allegation which do not make any sense like I am taking away turban and kripan from sikhs and write another 200 words on how bad I am and that I am a clever brahmin or whatever. I did not know that being clever or being brahmin was a crime though. cut the crap and get to the point. if you cant, forget it.
Cut the crap out and answer my questions...you sound illogical insecure and more like muslim who want everybody who doesn't agree with them to shut up. You can appeal to your muslim friends who call people like us Kaffir on this board all the time...i couldn't care less.
My family did more to promote Sikhism then you can ever think of or can ever do...so shut up. Read the verses you keep on quoting from GGS and learn some toleration for other people's point of view.
Can you tell me why Guru choose to call God by Hindu name "Ram" and did not invent his own Sikh name like muhammad did. Also, why Guru Govind Singh ji refer to God as "Shiva", if he hated hinduism the way you want us to believe.
[This message has been edited by Rani (edited October 25, 2000).]
Like I said in the above post Yoga is not widely practiced amongst Sikhs like you claimed. Only few westren Sikhs do it. Further more there is no religious basis for Yoga in Sikhism as a religious act. You don't have a copy right on Yoga as for as I know, or do you? Sikhs do a lot of things not all of them are religious commandments. Yoga is good so is jogging. I jogg regularily but now I will make sure I don't do it outdoors for you never know I might be called some kind of christian.
And where you think I took the quotes from Navdev, kabir, Farid and Nanak? You are not thinking I composed them on the fly to impress you? I have given you examples which show gurbani has used different names for God Including Ram/Krishan/bhagwan/Allah/khuda/rahim/kartar etc etc. and Also places where GSS means by RamChander it has said so, I have given you the quote by Nam Dev.(BTW He was a Maratha.)
Your approach is demeamning and politically motivated. Why? First you insist on Sikhs being a sub rligion of Hinduism. WHen you don't succeed in that you ultimately start challenging the whole existence on the basis of originality and blah blah.
Basic question. Are Sikhs a separate religion or not? Do they have an indentity separate enough from Hindus that can be idenitfied or not? DO they have the right to maintain that identity in the 21st century when almost every other person is claiming to be different and it is respected in the civilised world of 21st century? Answers to all these is Yes Yes. Most of the Hindus accept that. I would say vast majority of the Hindus know that, in fact they will laugh at your alledgations. the other day A senior Minister in Punjab Govt(#2 after Badal) Mr Balramji Das Tandon said that Sikhs and Hindus although have lived together for centuries, Sikhs are a distinct religion, identity and culture. This guy have grown up in Amritsar and have lived their all his life. I have not met a Punjabi Hindu yet who would make claims like yours. I am sure there are some who get their motivation from the same place as your do. But not many.
Rani, the toleration that you show towards others who differ in view form you is well noted.
I am not attacking anyone's religion or anyone's identity. I am defending mine.
I answered your question already. the day you will figure out why Nanak and Kabir had no problem calling God as Allah and Khuda you will understand why Shiva or Ram.
Also you have changed your stand. few posts back your claim was that it was the Ram and Shiva of Hinduism that Gurus refer to now you have come down to using their names. I have no problem acknowledging that. But thats not what you said. You said Guru Gobind singh prayed to Shiva, a Hindu God. Why have you changed your stand now?
I am glad your family did so much for Sikhism. When are you going to start and stop being side kick of others?
As long as there are sikhs like Rani who have not yet cut the naaRoo this approch will always work for you.
As long as their are Sikhs like you they will alienate everybody by looking down on them and insulting them, which is aganist all Sikh principal. I was taken back by the treatment given to lower caste Sikhs by "Jats" during one of very few visits to punjab.
I don't care about nehru he is inconsequential in this debate we are discussing religion not pollitics. Pollitics of the day don't change what is written in GGS.
Hmm...and then comes the favourite topic of our rani. How bad Jatts have been to lower castes. Can you tell me how good Non-jatts have been to lower castes? Last time I checked Lower castes were miss treated by every other higher caste in India. Or are you saying no-jatts are now marrying into shudar families?
I think it was another one of your tricks to divert attention or is to get attention. I am sorry Jatts have been so bad to you. I apologize. I did not have any choice at my birth or I would have born into more educated and enlightened community like yourself.
iginally posted by ChannMahi: Rani, the toleration that you show towards others who differ in view form you is well noted.
By who, i think you are referring to people like youself who don't hesitate to put down others down and start name calling at drop of hat regardless of topic on hand. Your love for india is very will noted. I don't want to belong to your group of people and be called Kaffir and indulge in personal attacks ( read back all the post you are the only one who started personal attacks when you didn't agree with what i said). Your opinion of me is not important therefore stop telling me what others think and what you think....i simply don't care.
I am not attacking anyone's religion or anyone's identity. I am defending mine.
You are wrong in your thinking that if you respect others you would loose out.
I answered your question already. the day you will figure out why Nanak and Kabir had no problem calling God as Allah and Khuda you will understand why Shiva or Ram.
I love this answering question with a question...you seem to have no answer..
Also you have changed your stand. few posts back your claim was that it was the Ram and Shiva of Hinduism that Gurus refer to now you have come down to using their names. I have no problem acknowledging that. But thats not what you said. You said Guru Gobind singh prayed to Shiva, a Hindu God. Why have you changed your stand now?
He didn't find it objectionable in calling God Shiva (a hindu name)and also name of hindu God of war...this is very significant
I am glad your family did so much for Sikhism. When are you going to start and stop being side kick of others?
Side kick for who...by respecting my own group of people with whom i share genetics and history ....maybe you want us to give all power to you Jat brothers like Bhindrawala who can screw all other Sikhs with their discrimination and hot headness. Currently they are ruling Punjab and look at the mess educational system is and Gurudawaras are with all the infighting and corruption.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by ChannMahi:
**Nehru? eh kithoN aa tapka iss discussion ch?
Hmm...and then comes the favourite topic of our rani. How bad Jatts have been to lower castes. Can you tell me how good Non-jatts have been to lower castes? Last time I checked Lower castes were miss treated by every other higher caste in India. Or are you saying no-jatts are now marrying into shudar families?
Here we go again...i have never ever seen in langar that lowoer caste sit seperately ever. In punjab villages when Jats have path they don't sit with lower castes to eat langer....you are the one preaching Sikhism...preach some to your brothers first.
I think it was another one of your tricks to divert attention or is to get attention. I am sorry Jatts have been so bad to you. I apologize. I did not have any choice at my birth or I would have born into more educated and enlightened community like yourself.
You started the personal attacks as you always do ....that may be your trick to insult people...when you insult others and tell them the home truth be prepare to listen to some yourself.
[This message has been edited by Rani (edited October 25, 2000).]
Hey Rani I always wonder how many centuries will Indians throw this Bhindrawala''s name or accuse a sikh who diagrees with them to be a Khalistani or hot headed. This is a very convenient weapon in the hands of a majority to put down a minority.
You certainly don't want to know my views on
educational system and the SGPC mess. Acutally does not matter, isnce I will sound too radical on the subject for your taste oyu can easily accuse me of encouraging terrorism and what not.
Langar in the traditional sense is in the Gurdwara. I have not seen in my life any lower caste being refused langar from a Gurdawara. In fact the traditon of pangat is not that oyur khana and then sit down where your friends are sitting but to first sit down in the line whoever comes next and then langar be served. I have seen it being followed striclty that way whereever I went to a Gurdwara in Punjab. People inviitng people for path at their home..is not exactly a guru ka langar. I know we want to sound generous by inviting our freinds over for lunch after path and then call it langar but it is not so.
I agree if you have seen such behaviour ina religious place it is wrong and should be get rid off. then what does it has to do with the current dicsussion? or is it necessary to bring caste in every piece of discussion. Once again India's fascination with caste....
Well..when someone comes and says on my face that what my religion is or what it was supposed to be or not supposed to be at all. It does boil my blood and I am sorry I might have gone out of line to say something personal.
I am glad you know my views about India or at least about its treatment of Sikhs in the past. That however does not stop me from loving my motherland and its people. I love the place I was born in and people amongst I grew up the same way I did when I was 8 yr old. Thats personal and no one can take that away even if he owns whole of India with his Bapu's money.
"That however does not stop me from loving my motherland and its people."
Chan,
Depends on what you consider your motherland ! No one is accusing anyone here of being a Khalistani. And in any case whats wrong if anyone is supporting Khalistan -- I don't see anything wrong in that. I have made my views clear on this issue before -- anyone who wants to break away from India on the basis of their religion must be allowed to do so.....but every single person from that community should leave India -- now isn't this practical. That way we wont have another Pakistan like situation, no minorities, no accusations of being "communal fundamentalist Hindus" and everyone is happy !
You say majority of Indians don't believe that Sikhs are a part of Hinduism then what is the problem ? If you're upset at India's treatment of Sikhs than it's understandable. If you have greivances with the government of India, why accuse Hindus (or is it Brahmins) of being communal. Do you have any idea whats going on in India today. Do you know how many Brahmins get government jobs ? Check the figures yourself and then come up with accusations. Whatever the justification for your hatred, what you're talking about also constitutes racism. You once said that Hindus will repeat the riots of 1984 within the next 10 years. If this is the confidence you have in "your motherland", then I guess there is nothing much to say. Lets just agree to disagree.
Actually this is not even about patriotism; I am hardly a patriotic person myself, but I have reason to be proud of India and whatever achievements we have in various fields against heavy odds. Nations like the United States needed close to 200 years to come to terms with it's diverse population. Its just been 50 years for us and given our traumatic and unfortunate history, our tolerance level is pretty good !
Never mind BK. The word motherland raises lot of different emotions amongst different people. I am sure when a Bengali thinks about homeland or feels homesick, his emotion does not include how beautyfull the Kashmir valley was.
anyway.........