Should Pakistani MP3 sites be closed?

Febriona · October 5, 2003, 10:36pm

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PyariCgudia: *

But here's another thought...when we buy cd's - whether off the internet or online, its not the artist who gets the profit, anyway. So whether you download or order the cd's - either way the musician doesn't benefit - at least in Pakistan...so how does that effect the topic of this discussion?

pcg
[/QUOTE]

oh god. I'm surprised at this dumb and ignorant comment comming from the moderator of entertainment section. I thought knowing at least the alphabets of the market and piracy was a requirement for becomming a mod of shor.
Anyhow, I voted yes. There is no justification for stealing music. Artists put their blood and soul into their album and here we have their music on our cds for free through mp3 sites......that's just pathetic.

Mr_Fraudia · October 5, 2003, 10:45pm

Akif

good point about authenticity of the cds

for me in an ideal situation, i would be able to listen to streaming audio to figure out whether or not I like teh song, if i do, i would like to be able to download it for a fee which goes to the record company and artist minus any margin for the website.

almost every shp i have been to on devon sells pirated copies if not all, some atleast. I am not sure whats the diff between that and downloading, both is piracy.

But, when desi artists rip the music from someone else, do those poor guys see any royalty for that? I doubt UB40, or fiction factory got any money from vital signs ;)

PyariCgudia · October 6, 2003, 1:09am

woah , you guys didn't understand what I said, obviously.

If you buy a cd from rainbow centre or the majority of music stores in pakistan, or if you buy it online (these guys get the music from the same pakistani wholesalers), the artist is not directly getting the profit from the cost of that cd.

Those cd's, including the ones you order for 6 bucks off the internet, are not originals. The only cd's the artists make money off of ...well, they're pretty much not available, because no wholesaler sells them...those cd's would cost like 13 or 14 dollars.

The artists KNOW this. So whether you download the music or if you actually buy the cd off rainbow centre in karachi (for example) the artist wont make a dime off of it. The only difference is that by buying the cd in rainbow centre, the storewallah is pocketing the entire 60 rupees or whatever the cost is now for that cd...out of which he pays his store rent, etc, and then the rest of the profit he keeps. ZERO goes to the artist.

and that, my friends, is a fact.

PyariCgudia · October 6, 2003, 1:15am

At any rate, I have all the cd's I listen to in solid copy in my bedroom. I order these cd's anyway, because I need them for my car.

It just seems pointless to me that we're even arguing about whether or not downloading music is hurting the musician. It is, of course. But then there is no alternative. Buying cd's from stores is hurting the musician as well, because every cd you'll find in the market is pirated. At least, I haven't come across a store that sells the originals.

From what I understand, Zoheb Hasan (Nazia Hasan's brother) is now trying to find a solution to the problem...they've trying to work out deals with the wholesalers to give them a certain percentage for the cd's they sell, but I have no idea if that's gone thru or not. At this point, the only money these guys make is off of concerts, and concerts, and more concerts...oh , yes and sponsorships.

And maybe they make a little extra cash via fan club stuff.

If you are paying for a solid cd, like 5 or 6 dollars...its definitely pirated. Even the cd's you will find in desi stores out here are pirated, and some desi stores in certain cities will charge you 12 bucks for a pirated cd. Sorry folks, the whole system is pirated. Even buying music is not helping the artist...its actually encouraging the piracy industry.

Spock · October 6, 2003, 2:09am

There is something called distributors, for instance, the new junoon CD that you buy at rainbow center is from Sadaf, and sadaf pays Junoon money for every CD that sells. Suppose if youre a retailer, when I give you the 100CDs to sell, intitially you give me back the money you owe to me, and then in turn, I owe some money to the band whose album it is.

Which ones are you talking about? The Pakistani CDs available from the artists’ sites, who do you think is getting the money for those? Its not just dissapearing in thin air is it? Goto CDnow and you will find some pakistani cds there too. I am sorry to say but you have no clue how this system works.

When the distributor gives these CDs to the store wallas, he pays the artist, I cant beleive how you could not know this. Its like saying all the music sold in the world is being sold without giving anything back to the artists. You said the store walla is keeping the Rs60 in his pocket, do you think he gets these CDs free from the distributor? Thats really stupid.

PyariCgudia · October 6, 2003, 3:49am

Spock, these wholesalers get the albums off the artists in original format and then they make lots and lots of pirated cd's off of the original. The quality is nicht so gut, and the prices are cheaper. The artist only makes money off of those first few originals that get sent out to the wholesalers...all the subsequent copies made of the original are sold at a profit that the wholesaler and retailer pockets. The musician sees none of that money. That's why these artists are so pissed off at places like Rainbow centre.

If the musicians were getting a portion of profit from every cd sold, their would be no big debate on piracy currently. That's why I said Zoheb Hasan and some others were trying to cut out a deal with the wholesalers to give them a definite percentage of cd profits, or they were planning on selling the cd's in bulk to the wholesalers...some sort of plan that would ensure that they get at least a small percentage of the money they SHOULD be getting.

These guys really do not make much money off the album sales...they rely on concerts and sponsors, buddy.

Suppose if youre a retailer, when I give you the 100CDs to sell, intitially you give me back the money you owe to me, and then in turn, I owe some money to the band whose album it is.

You're not factoring the part in where the you would make a crapload of pirated copies from the originals you bought from the band. Yeah, you owe them money for what you brought from them...but if you had bought every cd from them rather than make pirated copies, the way you should, then the band would make a lot more money than they are now. Say you do buy 1000 cd's from the band, and then you sell cd's to me. You're not just going to sell me the originals. You will sell me 1000 cd's which are copied (not originals), then you'll sell guppie #2 another 1000 pirated cd's, and then you'll sell guppie #3 another 1000 cd's. You, hence, make money off of 3000 cd's, and you give back the money for 1000 cd's worth to the band. The band lost out on profit for like 2000 cd's. Not to mention, that if you sold the originals to me, a higher profit would be made off of the 1000 cd's (they're more expensive than pirated copies). The band would get 3000 cd's worth of real profit, if you sold only originals to us three guppan retailers. Whereas, now, they're getting 1000 cd's worth.

See, the other problem that factors in is that the Pakistani economy will not tolerate cd's for like 13 US dollars. Maybe we can pay it out here, but the consumers in Pakistan cannot. That's another reason why the piracy industry is so dominating there...people will pay 60 rupees for the cd rather than 13 american dollars, because that is all they can really afford. You have to keep in mind that the musician's primary consumer is the pakistani living inside pakistan. Pakistani citizens are not making 30,000+ bucks a year the way some of us are.

pcg

PyariCgudia · October 6, 2003, 4:02am

Look, I want to see these musicians getting their due. I always order their cd's from pakistan, even though I know very well that maybe when the profit they make from cd's is divided by the number of cd's sold, maybe, they're making a fraction of a cent from each cd.

But closing down mp3 sites will have small effect on the musician's pockets.

The approach being taken in this thread is to kill the weed by slowly cutting off the weed's branches...why do that when you could pull the cursed organism out from the ground from its roots?

If piracy is to be fought, then its useless wasting your time on trying to close down mp3 sites...what is needed, methinks, is some real action on the folks who create pirated cd's in the first place. Record companies need to get their act together and figure out a way to make high-quality cd's at low cost so that citizens can afford to buy them. And then I'd like to see the gov't come in and do some danda-baazi over at the rainbow centre aka bazaar of overweight paan-chewing storewallahs who oggle at anything that is female and breathing.

But then I would like to see money grow on trees as well.

Spock · October 6, 2003, 4:05am

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PyariCgudia: *
Spock, these wholesalers get the albums off the artists in original format and then they make lots and lots of pirated cd's off of the original. The quality is nicht so gut, and the prices are cheaper. The artist only makes money off of those first few originals that get sent out to the wholesalers...all the subsequent copies made of the original are sold at a profit that the wholesaler and retailer pockets. The musician sees none of that money. That's why these artists are so pissed off at places like Rainbow centre.

If the musicians were getting a portion of profit from every cd sold, their would be no big debate on piracy currently. That's why I said Zoheb Hasan and some others were trying to cut out a deal with the wholesalers to give them a definite percentage of cd profits, or they were planning on selling the cd's in bulk to the wholesalers...some sort of plan that would ensure that they get at least a small percentage of the money they SHOULD be getting.

These guys really do not make much money off the album sales...they rely on concerts and sponsors, buddy.

Suppose if youre a retailer, when I give you the 100CDs to sell, intitially you give me back the money you owe to me, and then in turn, I owe some money to the band whose album it is.

You're not factoring the part in where the you would make a crapload of pirated copies from the originals you bought from the band. Yeah, you owe them money for what you brought from them...but if you had bought every cd from them rather than make pirated copies, the way you should, then the band would make a lot more money than they are now. Say you do buy 1000 cd's from the band, and then you sell cd's to me. You're not just going to sell me the originals. You will sell me 1000 cd's which are copied (not originals), then you'll sell guppie #2 another 1000 pirated cd's, and then you'll sell guppie #3 another 1000 cd's. You, hence, make money off of 3000 cd's, and you give back the money for 1000 cd's worth to the band. The band lost out on profit for like 2000 cd's. Not to mention, that if you sold the originals to me, a higher profit would be made off of the 1000 cd's (they're more expensive than pirated copies). The band would get 3000 cd's worth of real profit, if you sold only originals to us three guppan retailers. Whereas, now, they're getting 1000 cd's worth.

See, the other problem that factors in is that the Pakistani economy will not tolerate cd's for like 13 US dollars. Maybe we can pay it out here, but the consumers in Pakistan cannot. That's another reason why the piracy industry is so dominating there...people will pay 60 rupees for the cd rather than 13 american dollars, because that is all they can really afford. You have to keep in mind that the musician's primary consumer is the pakistani living inside pakistan. Pakistani citizens are not making 30,000+ bucks a year the way some of us are.

pcg
[/QUOTE]

I think youre talking about cassette piracy here, which is becoming very insignificant. Do you know how many mass CD production plants there are in Karachi? They cant just start making pirated CDs on their little CD writers and sell it in a mass quantity. Find me a single Sadaf CD in Pakistan that is pirated. If you go out to buy Deewar in Karachi (or any other city), the only CD you will find would be from Sadaf, and Sadaf does pay royalty to artists, if you dont believe me, I can give you an email address of a manager of a big band, and you can confirm it from him. As for Zohaib, hes probably referring to cassette piracy, on which I would agree to you somewhat, as there was a time when some pirates were producing pirated cassettes in mass quantities.

Lahori_Cheetah · October 6, 2003, 7:42am

ok ppl cheets is back

First of all the POLL which why this thread was started. So far results.

78.95% of the votes for “no”

So it clearly shows what the majority thinks.

Now back to this mp3 topic.

People who say that artists dont earn this way, let me tell u something. Go to Karachi RAINBOW centre, or any other big place. Every CD that comes out the same day it is taken by PPL who make pirate copies. They take the album, take it to their so called NO NAME recording company and make thousands of copies. and we are talking about THOUSANDS. These are the ppl who should get caught. Once they are out of stock they make more. There is no current pakistani mp3 site , but if there is it doesnt effect the music industry not at all. Cuz real piracy is those ppl who make thousands of copies and sell to all kind of small music shops in pakistan.

Abrar Ul Haq BILLO DAY GHAR…70% of the copies sold were pirate. PPL were caught too. But the business still goes on. Deewar is being sold pirate, the one i got from pakistan does not have VIDEOS in it, later on i bought the real one, and it was totally different the cover paper and all!

It all depends if you a really music lover or not. Keypoint is ppl who will BUY will BUY.

Mp3 site is a best way to promote an artist. PPL who say streaming is good, well i am not saying it is not, but mp3 isnt bad either. It gives u a better pleasure and listen of the song. U hear the music better, the vocals better. The Better the soundquality is , the more person will fall for the song, and that is the best way to attrack someone new who doesnt listen to pakistani music much.

I know a guy and told him to listen to Haroon’s lagan on muziqpakistan. He listened and thats it. A day he was at my place and i put lagan on..and he was like WAAOOOHH! this is music. see it?

so point is streaming doessnt really appeal a new listener into pakistani music than a song in digital or almost cd quality does.

What do ppl do who download mp3s off sites?

the majority keeps the mp3 stored in their comp, some BURN on CDs(as Data/Audio), some on MD, some on D-Walkman, but remember the desicion is at ur end. If you really are a PAKSITANI MUSIC lover, u will always go and buy the original CD. I do that and ppl i know well they do it too!

i very often get mp3s first for some albums , and even though i have mp3s, i always get my hands into original whenever i can.

Let me tell u a recorded CD will never stay the same as original. It will not have the same value. today or tommorow it will be khalaas.

lastly, fine order cds on-line. there are sites.

there is http://www.pakstore.com (which doesnt get new albums, plus service isnt good)

look at asiansounds.com (they got loads of PK stuff , quwaleez , remix and pop) and it is a QUALITY site!

i have ordered more than 30 cds there.

once CD will coast u 10 pounds there with VAT and delivery.

Now who will support? ppl will say naah CC isnt safe. but its safe and the labelcompany will get profit too ! They dont deliver. Well i am saying they are cuz i order myself. but result will not be that much, because all use pakistani lots we say a lot and do a little. (not all but some)

and person who said that bollywood music isnt shared on net, well boy come to apna movies / apna rhythm on IRC. Bollywood music is too common thats why it has no value to be shared. PK music is special and rare.

every new release is shared there in VBR rip, and DivX rip.

and other point is artists EARN more by CONCERTS/GIGS than they earn by album releases. No Joke.

and talking about SADAF, i personally know 2 ppl who are going to do case on them (one is gurp, 2nd is raj of music minds), because they have been taking cds from UK labels and been and are releasing under their names.

http://www.sadafcd.net/New/audio%20ind%20priv/bhangra.htm

check out BOOTA PARDSEI cd there, that was a special COPY RIGHTED cd by a UK label company named “MUSIC MINDS”. And this CD was COPY PROTECTED. Even i couldnt Rip it in mp3, it cud only be played on hi fi sets n etc. And i personally know the owner of that company. Plus UNTouchablesUK . Sadaf is taking off their CD’s which is a big crime.

so these are the ppl who shud get caught.

all us mp3 websites, we provide mp3 for promotinal use. If u really have pain then just dont download, but let thousand of others ppl enjoy who cannot get in touch of the cds because they live in a hollywood pind or someother place in the world where there is no music shop.

**and to all music ppl who wants to support go order a few CD’s on-line and talk to me. **

Spock · October 6, 2003, 12:47pm

The majority will naturally say 'no', as the majority wants free stuff rather than paying, thats desi mentality...

If the music industry is to survive, all pirates, including mp3 sites and those selling pirated CDs should be caught and apprehended. Getting mp3 sites closed down is easy, getting under the table sellers isnt.

Capt_Gulsher_Khan · October 6, 2003, 1:18pm

There are no Pakistani mp3 sites out there, so whats the fuss about? Even if one starts tommorow, it will be shut down day after tommorow. This question is not just about Pakistani music, but about all forms of music. No site online can let users download copyrighted music, unless they have a legitmate way of charging users, or the music is free. p2p file sharing lets you do that only. Those that offer downloads on their sites are breaking the laws, and most of them have to shut down anyways.

Mr_Fraudia · October 6, 2003, 1:25pm

Lahori cheetah

I think the survey needs to be broadened, I am among the ppl who voted that mp3 sites not be closed down, but they must meet the conditions I mentioned i.e. not full length songs but samples so people can make purchase decisions, and give people the ability to download songs for a price.

the poll does not capture such nuances in thought though :)

I am sure that majority of ppl do nto want to screw over the artists whose music they like. Excuses like profit margins for record companies are lame.

munda_Pakistani · October 6, 2003, 2:35pm

salaamz everyone..

here is my 2 cents.. or story as u might call it..

The main reason which prompted me to start pakmusic was that I was a Pakistani music fan and used to listen to it a lot, and usually had the latest songs..., now whenever I used to play them to my friends they would be like.."who is that.. nice song..can i have that cd.." bcz they never heard it.. and didt have access to pakistani music..

I used to see Young Pakistani guys in their cars blasting indian music.. and I used to wonder.. has he ever heard of Junoon and Junaid Jamshed ..does he know Abrar sings better punjabi songs than daler mehndi..

whenevr there were concerts of Pakistani bands there wasnt much audience there.. but teh indian concerts used to be sold out..and the worst thing would be when both teh concerts were on the same day..

now i dont blame them.... its not available.. most desi retailers concentrate more on indian music... and have teh latest songs and thats all people used to get and listen to .. thats all they used to talk about..."hey that new movie is coming out. and have u heard that new indian song.."

about 1-2 out of 10 Young Pakistanis in north america really know about Pakistani music.. and want to buy it.. but its not available.. and while most are not comfortable with online buying.. others dont know about it..
even whats available on those sites are old albums like qawwalis and ghazals for older people and only they buy it, there is rarely anything for the younger generation to enjoy.. and they have to goto indian and english music..as a matter of fact most of them dont even care about it..

now the only way to get people intrested in Pakistani music is by providing it to them... and keeping in mind the desi mentality it has to be FREE.. you can see that by looking the poll results about 80% want free pakistani music online.. and we know who the 20% are..

Pakimp3 launched and I thought those guys were heros.. they were spreading Pakistani Music and more and more people got aware of new Pakistani bands... but they shut down..

Thats when Me and Cheetah started working on Pakmusic...
The main purpose of which was to spread Pakistani music all over N. America.. and to let ppl know that there is better music out there than Indian Movie songs.. and its available... FREELY...

The fan mail we used to get brought smiles.. ppl used to say they had been looking for such a site for ages and they didt have access to Pakistani Music where they lived... ppl said they never knew there was Pakistani music this good.. they didnt know junoon and Junaid had this many albums taht they had missed... we had indian ppl e-mailing us and thanking us for uploading their fav. Pakistani albums...

and one more thing I know is that the next time Junoon or Junaid Jamshed come to N. America and they see more fans at their concerts they will be happy .. and trust me if ppl like an artists music they Do buy their cd .. u just have to make the person like the music first..and taht can only happen if u provide free downloads..no body has teh time to goto a site and stick there and stream one song at a time or even a playlist... if u have the music on ur desktop u listen to it more...

I am waiting too see a young Pakistni guy in his car blasting pakistani music.. I know its there but its that 2 out of 10 ...

The other day I was driving down a desi street here in montreal getting some grocery and I heard the pakmusic dot com voice tag in one of the cars stopped at the light... my heart was filled with joy.. :)..

Pakmusic was started as a mission.. and it will go on.. we have hit the first obstacle.. but it will not stop us.

haro bhi to haaro na..
yeh payghaam hyjeet ka..

we are coming back more powerfull and more organized than before...

Khwaaab adhoooray sahi....
khwaab sahaaary to hain....

Spock · October 6, 2003, 3:33pm

Coming back to PCG's post...

PCG, you said alot of shops in Pakistan sell pirated music. Partly true, but consider this, if piracy of Pakistani music was carried out in an organized and a large scale fashion, the big shot distributors (of Pakisatani music) can easily track down and get the pirates in court/kecharis. Most of this piracy is encompassed to Indian music, for which no one bothers about any copyrights in Pakistan as they are not applicable.

dejavu · October 6, 2003, 3:36pm

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by munda Pakistani: *
salaamz everyone..