Shias and the Turba in Prayer

I asked the Shias the following question:

If true, when shias go for Haj why do they put some clay/stone under their forehead while prostrating in prayer at Kabbah?

And their reply was:

*Note that it is in everywhere, but a better question is that why Sunni brothers do not put Turba (mud/clay) on their forhead while prostrating in prayers since this is the Sunna of Prophet (pbuh)

These are the sources about prostrating in prayer

Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith 3.235
Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith 1.378
Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith 1.429
Saheeh Bukhari, Part I, p. 104
Saheeh Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 8, Number 376
Kanz-ul-Ummal, Part 4., p. 113
Maulana Vahidul Zamankhan (Sunni Alim),
author of ‘Anwar-ul-Lughat’, Chap. 7, p. 118

Read all those Hadith which backs Jafari school of thought. Some Shias take this mud from holy cities of Mecca, Medina, holy land of Karbala which reminds of Justice, truth and bravery, some will take it from holy city of Mashhad, Qom, … .*

Can someone confirm this please! I can only find the source on Sahih Bukhari: Vol. 1, Book 8, Number 376 and that doesn’t mention anything about Turba:

*Volume 1, Book 8, Number 376:

Narrates 'Abdullah bin Shaddad:

Maimuna said, “Allah’s Apostle was praying while I was in my menses, sitting beside him and sometimes his clothes would touch me during his prostration.” Maimuna added, "He prayed on a Khumra (a small mat sufficient just for the face and the hands while prostrating during prayers).*

Re: Shias and the Turba in Prayer

I don't agree with the concept - you're giving overdue reverence to the sand of Saudia Arabia. God created the rest of the world too, you know.

Re: Shias and the Turba in Prayer

Regardless of the importance to the soil being logically correct or nor, this is going to be a tough one to answer for the people who consider Every Hadees and Ijma to be Farz. I would not hold my breath for an answer.

Re: Shias and the Turba in Prayer

Nothing of the sort is referenced in the Quran for the prophet's actions or what he was asked to say to people, and this particularly makes any alleged sayings, that propell this concept, suspect. However, let me put it from a different angle:

The oldest collection of Hadith is the Muwattah ("imam" Malik) and to my recollectioin it does not have any such reference.

The only relevant "hadith" I find mentioning clay and prostration together is as follows:

Do note that "imam" Malik was "imam" Ja'far's protoge... Ja'fari eh?

Re: Shias and the Turba in Prayer

I hope these two hadith from Shaih Bukhari should be sufficient to prove that it is permissible to prostrate on earth. Shia are allowed to prostrate on anything that grows out of earth or the earth itself, not the fancy carpets etc.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/022.sbt.html

Sahih Bukhari
Volume 2, Book 22, Number 299:

Narrated Anas bin Malik:

We used to pray with the Prophet in scorching heat, and if someone of us could not put his face on the earth (because of the heat) then he would spread his clothes and prostrate over them. 

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/011.sbt.html

Sahih Bukhari
Volume 1, Book 11, Number 638:

Narrated Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri:

A cloud came and it rained till the roof started leaking and in those days the roof used to be of the branches of date-palms. Iqama was pronounced and I saw Allah's Apostles prostrating in water and mud and even I saw the mark of mud on his forehead.

Re: Shias and the Turba in Prayer

The whole body on a fancy carpet and putting only the forehead on a small piece of mud which is more like a stone! Isn't it a mockery of the whole concept of praying on earth.

Re: Shias and the Turba in Prayer

Makrani, I'd rather get a fancy carpet to pray upon, as a way of letting Allah know that I respect and love the opportunity to speak with him, rather than pay for a fancy mercedes.

Its just personal expression. I don't think you should be so harsh on someone who expresses their love for God by praying on something nice and clean.

Re: Shias and the Turba in Prayer

PyariC You totally misunderstood me, I was not being harsh on anybody. Personally I don't care where somebody prostrate. The question was asked to confirm if prostrating on earth is sunnah or not and thats all I did.

As far as the whole body on a fancy carpet and putting only the forehead on a small piece of mud is concerned I would say that at least this way one can be absolutely sure that the place of sijada is paak or clean because as it was said earlier that this clay is from Mohamadi Arabia or Iraq. It is a sajda where a person gets very close to his Creator.

Re: Shias and the Turba in Prayer

As God has made both the clay in "Mohamadi Arabia and Iraq" as well as the rest of the clay around the world, it would be an insult to God to say that clay elsewhere is dirty.

Re: Shias and the Turba in Prayer

well even a fancy carpet or a simple dhurrie is made of material that grows from the earth if you really think about it.

Re: Shias and the Turba in Prayer

i take this as a sinful n shirk[y] action. my mom told me that Saudiz through the sand underneath the Khana-e-Kaaba's cloak on shore, so ppl dont use it as an idolatry substance.
if shia'z do this (wat ever mud description u r proposing) it wont amazes me. (cuz u may encounter several these kind of things during their mujlis)

even non-shiaz try to cut piece of Khana-e-Kaaba's cloak. (that is y during busy occasions it is lifted up).

so reasoning u r giving r excuses ppl come up with. (regardless whether they r shia or non shia).

I STRONGLY BELIEVE WHILE ONE IS PRAYING THERE SHOULDNT BY ANYHTING ELSE BETWEEN U N ALLAH SWT, SINCE IT DIVERTS ONES ATTENTION.

Re: Shias and the Turba in Prayer

pakistanidragon; The turbah is not only used at hajj, but for all prayers everywhere. While its not compulsory to use clay or a specific type of clay, it is however compulsory to perform sajdah on natural earthly materials..i.e. straw mats, soil, palm leaves, wood etc. for example.

This is because the Prophet (saw) forbade his companions from using anyting else, and at one point when they complained the sand was too hot, he (saw) asked them to cool it in thier hands before using it. Now however you guys want to interpret that, is your prerogative, but that is the background why shias emphasise on praying on turbah.

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Re: Shias and the Turba in Prayer

^ praying on a straw mat would make more sense to me. Praying with your forehead on a stone, while the rest of your body is on a janamaaz defeats the purpose, no?

Re: Shias and the Turba in Prayer

when u say he forbade them from using anything else, what did he forbid them from?

and what is the definition of natural earthy materials?

Re: Shias and the Turba in Prayer

Fraudia, I haven't looked up that hadith, but it would make sense if you examine the nature of the Islamic movement. It was a rebellion against the rich, the materialistic, and the corrupt; not just a rebellion against people who didn't believe in a God. It would make sense if he were telling his people to pray on simple non-extravagent materials.

That brings me back to a thread I opened earlier, which didn't get much response. If this is the case, then WHY are there so many markets in Makkah and Madina selling items at immense prices. WHY did a friend's mother come back from Makkah with a suitcase of 4 Gucci purses, at a price of 400 dollars EACH!

Muslims can argue about praying on a stone or a piece of ground, but yet these same muslims go to Makkah, walk around with their fancy digital cameras taking pics of the masjids (from outside), shop in the markets and buy treasures for so much money?

You might as well kick the stone away.

Re: Shias and the Turba in Prayer

PCG I am only looking for definitions of what an earthly material means. I see your point though.

Re: Shias and the Turba in Prayer

i still don't understand why this hadees is brought forward
there is a difference in turba and piece of cloth or mat

some time in mosques in last rows we dont have chatti etc we use our romals , chadar etc , which cover what ever area but it doesn't mean we must do or should not do that, it depends upon the availibility of things

but necessarily having a turba , i don't think that make a sense

Re: Shias and the Turba in Prayer

The following is an excerpt from Prostrating on Turbah from an article on Shia method of prayer. Hope it will help and answer some questions raised in this topic.

Praying on Turbah

Shi’as normally place a Turbah (Sajdagaah in Urdu) made of clay to prostrate on while offering prayers and this act is proven from the Holy Prophet’s Sunnah, there are numerous traditions in the Hadeeth books of Ahl e Sunnah that Holy Prophet (s) used to place a Sajdagaah to prostrate on. We believe that the most humble act is to prostrate on Allah (swt)’s earth, rather than man made cloth. In this regards we find these traditions. The word used in the traditions is ‘Khumrah’ which has been translated as ‘Sajdagaah’ by the Sunni Scholars.

Allah’s Apostle used to pray on a Khumra

Allamah Waheed uz-Zaman while commenting on this tradition states in his esteemed commentary on Sahih al Bukhari:

“All the jurists unanimously agree that it is permissible to prostrate on Sajdagaah, but Umer bin Abdul Aziz says that he used to prostrate on the mud which was supposed to be brought for him, and Ibn e Abi Shaybah narrates from Urwah that he considered prostrating on anything else other the Sajdagaah as undesirable.”
Tayseer al-Bari Sharh Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, page 275, published by Taj Company Limited.

Imam Bukhari and Imam Abu Daud have both maintained whole chapters on prostration on clay.
1. Tayseer al-Bari Sharh Bukhari, Volume 1, page 276.
*2. Sunan Abi Daud, volume 1, page 291, translated by Maulana Waheed uz-Zaman. *

The prostration of Holy Prophet (s) on clay is such a famous act that most of the narrators have mentioned it in their Hadeeth books.

According to Imam Shaukani, a famous Sunni scholar, more than ten Companions of the Prophet (s) have narrated traditions mentioning his prostration on a Khumrah. And he lists all the Sunni sources recording these traditions which include Sahih Muslim, Sahih al-Tirmidhi, Sunan Abu Dawud, Sunan al-Nasa’i and many others.
Nayl al-Autaar, Chapter of Prostration on the Khumrah, volume 2, page 128

In Sahih Tirmidhi, Hadhrath Abbas narrates that the Holy Prophet (s) prostrated on Sajdagaah.
Sahih Tirmidhi, volume 1, page 156, translated by Badee’ uz Zaman, published in Lahore

It is on the basis of these traditions that Medina born Imam Malik said:

“Other then the earth, to prostrate on anything else or botanic herbs or plants is undesirable.”
Urdu translation of Al-Muhalla, volume 3, page 115, by Imam Ibn e Hazm Andalasi, published in Lahore

Meaning of Khumrah

The Traditions that report about Holy Prophet’s (s) prostration spot usually state:
“The Holy Prophet (s) used to prostrate on Khumrah.”

Sunni scholars have defined the term Khumrah as follows:

Dr Mushin Khan in his English translation of Sahih al Bukhari vol. 1, book 8, no. 376 states in paranthesis)] defines Khumrah as:

“A small mat sufficient just for the face and the hands while prostrating during prayers.”

Ibn Athir in his Jami al-'Usul has written:

“Khumra is [like that] upon which the Shi’ah of our time perform their prostrations.”
Ibn al-‘Athir, Jami’ al-Usul, (Cairo, 1969), vol. 5, p. 467

Maulana Waheed Uz Zaman Khan Hyderabadi in “Lughaat Al-hadeeth” said:

“Khumra is the small piece of mat (made of palm leaves), or made up of date-palm leaves on which one can only place his head during each prostration.” A little further he writes that Ibn al-Aseer had said in Jame’ Al Usool, “Khumrah is a prostration spot on which Shiites used to prostrate in our times….Although in our religion it is permissible on a cloth but it’s better to prostrate on soil or mat (palm leaves).”
Lughaat ul Hadeeth, volume 1, Book: Letter khay, page 133, published by Meer Mohammad Kutb Khana, Aaram Bagh, Karachi (<-- scanned page in urdu)

**Allamah Waheed uz Zaman’s personal practice of prostration on Khumrah and deeming it Sunnah **

On the same page while concluding his discussions on using something to prostrate on Maulana Waheed Uz Zaman writes:

“I say that from this tradition, keeping something to prostrate on is lawful and it is incorrect for people to label those who do this as apostates. In accordance with this tradition, I sometimes keep a feather made of palm leaves to prostrate on and I do not care about the taunting and criticism of ignorant people. We should only be concerned with the traditions of the Holy Prophet (s), even if someone labels us as apostates.”
Lughaat ul Hadeeth, Volume 1, Book:Letter ‘Khay’, page 133, published by Meer Mohammad Kutb Khana, Aaram Bagh, Karachi

At another place he writes:

**“I often my lay my mat on the floor of the mosque that has cloth spread on it. Some of the people of Ahl’ul Sunnah condemn me unnecessarily for this. They do not understand that we should offer the prayers in a way which is right according to all. This is more cautionary. It is also reported that the Holy Prophet (s), offered prayers on cloth but obligatory prayers cannot be offered on cloth.” The Sahaba report that the Holy Prophet (s) used to prostrate on soil or mat (palm leaves).” **
Lughaat ul Hadeeth Volume 1, page 113, Book: Letter Bai, published by Meer Mohammad Kutb Khana, Aaram Bagh, Karachi (<-- scanned page in urdu)

To understand why muslim should use a turbah while praying click HERE](http://www.answering-ansar.org/fiqh/salat/en/chap12.php) (link to above article) or search al-islam.org for turbah.

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Re: Shias and the Turba in Prayer

yeah well reply to my post first... btw: Muwatta predates Bukhari by 100 odd years and is written/compiled by "imam" Ja'far Sadiq's student.

Re: Shias and the Turba in Prayer

No offence to anyone,

World has gone moon and as of we speak they are getting sample of soil and rocks from Mars... and from last 1400 years we still are not capable to decide to how to pray.
( is this really a best religion for the people?)