shia's and sunni's

[quote]
Originally posted by Changez_like:
** Read Surah Baqara:
02.002 This is the book; in it is guidance, sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah;

do you have a doubt? Allah SWT says that Quran is THE guidance, whose word do you take?

**
[/quote]

Br. Changez;

[Shakir 13:7] And those who disbelieve say: Why has not a sign been sent down upon him from his Lord? You are only a warner and (there is) a guide for every people.

The Quran treats the miracles as subordinate to the moral and spiritual evidences and signs demonstrated by the Holy Prophet, who was sent as a warner.

Refer also to al Baqarah: 118. "And for every people there is a guide."

Thalabi in his Tafsir relates on the authority of Ibn Abbas that when this verse was revealed the Holy Prophet said: "I am the warner and Ali is the guide. O Ali, through you those who are guided will receive true guidance."

This tradition has also been reported and confirmed by Ibn Marduwayh, Ibn Hatim, Tabarani, Ibn Asakir, Suyuti, Ahmad bin Hambal, Fakhruddin Razi and Abu Nu-aym.

Allah's (swt) guidance to the Ummah consists of the qur'an and the ahl-bait. The latter teaches us of the true meanings of the quran and the correct ways of the prophet's (pbuh) sunnah.

This verse also points to the continued existence of a "guide", namely al Mahdi al Qa-im.

Also;

[Shakir 56:77] Most surely it is an honored Quran,
[Shakir 56:78] In a book that is protected
[Shakir 56:79] None shall touch it save the purified ones.
[Shakir 56:80] A revelation by the Lord of the worlds.

It is Allah's (swt) Guide that touch the deep meanings of the qur'an.

The physical touch is partial because the surface of one thing touches the surface of another thing. In the case of intellectual touch the knower grasps the known in such a way that the known, the knowing and the knower become identifiable with each other. It is a total touch.

As the term touch requires, the toucher and the touched should be of the same class, otherwise the touch or grasp would be not possible.

Also;
[Shakir 3:7] He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.**

&

[Shakir 21:7] And We did not send before you any but men to whom We sent revelation, *so ask the followers of the reminder if you do not know*

Dhikr literally means to call back to memory, or in other words to have something in conscious mind. It has been used figuratively for a stimulus which brings an object into the focus of consciousness. To be conscious of Allah, the Quran, the other scriptures and the Holy Prophet has been described as dhikr.

Some commentators hold that here dhikr refers to the previous scriptures and ahlul dhikr refers to the Jews and the Christians, but it is certainly a bad example of misinterpretation because even an ordinary teacher of Islamic ideology would not command a Muslim to refer to the Jewish and Christian scholars to remove his doubts, leave alone the all-wise Lord of the worlds.

Dhikr means to be conscious of Allah and ahl refers to those who are always conscious of Allah as asserted in surah An Nur: 37.

Also dhikr means the Quran or the Holy Prophet and ahl refers to the people identified with the Holy Prophet and the Quran, thoroughly purified by Allah (Ahzab: 33) and are always with the Quran as per hadith al thaqalayn.

w'salam

**

gandalf,

Even though I am not partaking in this discussion, i'd like to point something out in your last post, maybe you'll feel the same.

Ahl-e-zikr, in the context means any of the followers of the books, it mentions how people who did not believe were destroyed, and if you do not understand so then consult those who have been the follower of books (Any of the 4 books), since all have described punishments for the disobedient nations.

Br Ammar;

I have discussed this point in my previous post just b4 yours.

ws

Just a note 2 u guys:

This is a never ending discussion, leading no one no where. Being a Shia, I must say that all of us are quite strong about our faith and our beliefs. The same must be true for other sects too. So instead of arguing here, lets respond to external threats first.

Just some thoughts. No offense to any1.

bye.


You can only paint with the colors you're given...
...so get what you like and like what you have.

[This message has been edited by pakistan99 (edited May 29, 2002).]

Totally right

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/ok.gif

I agree 2....well why not put our differences aside and concentrate on things which are common amongst us
1. concept of tauheed
2. belief in prophet Muhammad(p.b.u.h)as the last prophet.
3. Belief that Quran is the Last Holy Book
4. One Ka'aba...i.e. we all bow before Allah and direct ourselves towards ka'aba when we pray...and this prayer unites us in five daily prayers when we bow before Allah unanimously.

So my message would be that lay aside ur differences and try to find what is common amongst u and be united because The Muslim Ummah can only be saved from ridicule it is facing today if it unites...I mean muslims constitute 1/3rd of the whole world's population but because of our self created rifts in the dealings of religion we are the most divided nation.
( i am called by people as a sunni...but i prefer to call my self a muslim..becauze Allah has addressed to muslims and mankind at large in His book...not to sunnis or shias.etc)

[quote]
Originally posted by Gandalf:
** Br. Changez;

[Shakir 13:7] And those who disbelieve say: Why has not a sign been sent down upon him from his Lord? You are only a warner and (there is) a guide for every people.

The Quran treats the miracles as subordinate to the moral and spiritual evidences and signs demonstrated by the Holy Prophet, who was sent as a warner.

Refer also to al Baqarah: 118. "And for every people there is a guide." **

Surah Baqarah 118 reads as follows:
[118] Say those without knowledge: "Why speaketh not Allah unto us? Or why cometh not unto us a Sign?" So said the people before them words of similar import. Their hearts are alike. We have indeed made clear the Signs unto any people who hold firmly to Faith (in their hearts).

Now tell me where did you get the meaning you showed?
Also, I do remember that Allah SWT said somewhere in Quran that he has sent a messenger / guide to every nation, and for "Muslim" Ummah the messenger/guide is Prophet Mohammed PBUH.

Anyway, I do not wish to participate further in this dicussion, I have learnt enough why Shias regard Ali as Prophet's equivalent in some way.
....**
[/quote]


May Allah SWT guide us all towards right and help us follow the right

JUST LISTEN a MAJLIS of sheeas and u will come to know who r they !!!

Dear enchanted,

I agree 2....well why not put our >>differences aside and concentrate on >>things which are common amongst us
1. concept of tauheed
2. belief in prophet Muhammad(p.b.u.h)as >>the last prophet.
3. Belief that Quran is the Last Holy Book
4. One Ka'aba...i.e. we all bow before >>Allah and direct ourselves towards ka'aba >>when we pray...and this prayer unites us >>in five daily prayers when we bow before >>Allah unanimously.

The purpose why there exists a sunni-shia debate/difference is precisely because of differences in 'aqeedah, such as tauheed. Furthermore, many shi'ites do not believe that the Qur'aan is complete and in its original form. One of the most famous respected Shi'ite scholars, from Najaf, Mirza Hussain bin Muhammad Taqi An-Nawari At-Tabarsi, wrote in 1292 A.H. the book Faslul-Khitaab fee Ithbatti Tahreefi Kitaab Rabbil-Arbaab The Decisive Say on the Proof of Alternation of the Book of the Lord of Lords). In this book he compiled hundreds of texts written by Shi'ite scholars in different eras alleging that the Qur'aan has been tampered with, that there have been both additions and omissions to it.

At-Tabarsi's book was printed in Iran, in 1298 A.H. and its appearance attracted much attention, frustrating the intention of certain Shi'ites that their doubts about the authenticity of the Qur'aan should be restricted to the elite of the religious scholars and personalities. They preferred that these allegations not be brought together in a single volume, and widely disseminated, as it could be used as proof against them by their opponents. When the scholars made public their criticism, At-Tabarsi responded with another book entitled Raddu ba'dush-Shubahaati 'an Faslil-Khitaabi fee ithbatti tahreefi kitaabi Rabbil-Arbaab (Refutation of Some Specious Arguments Regarding the Decisive Say on the Proof of Alternation of the Book of the Lord of the Lords). He wrote this defence of his original book two years before his death. In order to show their appreciation of his contribution to the attempt to prove that the Qur'aan had been altered, the Shi'ites buried him in one of their most prominent religious shrines, at Najaf.

Among the proofs offered by At-Tabarsi in his attempt to show that the Qur'aan had been altered, was a quotation from what the Shi'ites consider to be a missing part of the Qur'aan, called by them *Surat-ul-Wilaayah. It mentions the granting of wilaayah (sovereignty) to 'Ali (ra) as follows: "O believers, believe in the Prophet and the wali, the two whom We sent to guide you to the straight path ..."

So, such fandamental differences need to be adressed in order for everyone to return to Islam as brought to us by the Messenger (sallallho 'alaihi wa sallam) and unite us upon the Book of Allah as was revealed in it's original form to the blessed Prophet (saw), which you and I know has not been tampered with or altered in any way and shall not be, as Allah (subhan wa ta'aala) Himself testifies to in the Qur'aan.

... and to Allah alone belongs the dominion of the Heavens and the earth, and He is all Knowing, all Seeing and Most Wise. All praise is due to Allah Lord of the Worlds.

Sentinel.

well yeah i agree wit u that differences in basic beliefs shud be addressed...but here i only see people fighting over who shud have been the caliph....how many daughteres Prophe Muhammad (p.b.u.h) had and etc. etc..Now on the day of judgement Allah is not going to ask that if u believed wheter or not Prophet muhammad had 1 or 4 daughters.. or whether u believed thatHazrat Ali or Hazrat AbuBakr shud hv been the Caliph.. and He is not going to grant u Paradise on bases of these beliefs.....Instead He will Ask u whether or not you followed the path described by his Prophet...Islamic history is not a part of Islamic beliefs...Quran has not been tampered with but the History has been...because believe it or not muslims have been power thirsty and this is wat made them change the real facts...well it is not only shias but sunnis have also tampered with the history. We do not know for sure wat happened 1400 years ago after the demise of the Prophet..so why fight over those things which can't be changed...i mean shias and sunnis can't fight and change the history. History cannot be changed and leave it at that....look forward and try to eliminate the basic differences instead of picking at each others historical beliefs.

my best friend for most of my life and the closest most wonderful friend ive ever had was a shia, i pointed this thing out to her and you know what she told me? that the whole things a disgrace, ppl just go round being really rude fights happen (her cousin sister was an extreme one andd there was a fight btwn the shias/sunnis at some mosque she ended up doing karate on a sunni and her rishta broke

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hehe.gif

just remembered that and had to share)
anyway she said shes not gonna be a shia/sunni or anything. shes a muslim. thats what the prophet called us and thats what we should be!
btw i start saying that and ppl call me wahabi for some reason


Sugar, spice 'n all things nice

[quote]
Originally posted by Sentinel:
**Dear enchanted,

Furthermore, many shi'ites do not believe that the Qur'aan is complete and in its original form. One of the most famous respected Shi'ite scholars, from Najaf, Mirza Hussain bin Muhammad Taqi An-Nawari At-Tabarsi, wrote in 1292 A.H. the book Faslul-Khitaab fee Ithbatti Tahreefi Kitaab Rabbil-Arbaab The Decisive Say on the Proof of Alternation of the Book of the Lord of Lords). In this book he compiled hundreds of texts written by Shi'ite scholars in different eras alleging that the Qur'aan has been tampered with, that there have been both additions and omissions to it.

Sentinel.**
[/quote]

Sentinel;

I am shocked that as a moderator, you would post such false information on our shite brothers/sisters.

For your own good, and to ensure that you do not mislead others unknowingly, I STRONGLY SUGGEST you read all that I have to say on this.

There are three individuals with the title of Tabarsi among the Shi'a.

The one you mentioned who wrote a booklet on the incompleteness of
Quran, is al-Nuri al-Tabarsi (Husain Ibn Muhammad Taqi al-Nuri al-
Tabarsi) (c 1254/1838 - 1320/1902).

Those who call the Shi'a Kafir due
to this booklet will be surprised if they know that many of the
Hadiths that al-Nuri al-Tabarsi has quoted are, in fact, from the
Sunni documents and were quoted from their most authentic books!
Actually his book has two parts. In one part he has gathered the Sunni
reports and in the other part he provided the Shi'a reports in this
regard. The Wahhabis, who have recently distributed copies of this
book to attack the Shi'a, have intentionally omitted the part related
to the Sunni reports!

The highly-acknowledged Tabarsi in the Shia world is yet another person.
His name is Abu Ali al-Fadl Ibn al-Hasan al-Tabarsi (c 486/1093 -
548/1154)
, who is one of the famous Imami traditionists and the
commentators Quran. His book on Tafsir is well-known. He believed in the
completeness of Quran as other Shia scholars do. **Abu Ali al-Tabarsi
mentioned:

"There are no words added to the Quran. Any claim of added words is unanimously denied by the Shi'ites. As to the deletion,
some Shi'ites and some Sunnis said that there is deletion. but Our scholars deny that."**

  • Shi'i reference: Quoted from al-Tabarsi, in the Commentary of the Holy Quran, by al-Safi
  • Sunni reference: Quoted from al-Tabarsi, by Professor Muhammad Abu Zahrah in his book "Imam al-Sadiq".

First of all, Tabarsi has confirmed that nothing has been added in to the
Quran (as opposed to some of the traditions in Sahih al-Bukhari which claim
otherwise).

Second, he has mentioned that the scholars (the Shia scholars)
rejected the idea
that anything has been deleted from the Quran.

His saying clearly shows that the Shi'a scholars disagreed with any idea concerning that Quran is missing something. Thus the very small number of the traditions that
might imply otherwise should have proper interpretation.

Also as Tabarsi mentioned, such traditions which might imply deletion, are not
exclusive to the Shi'ite books, and can be found in the most important
Sunni collections of traditions
such as Sahih Muslim and Sahih al-Bukhari.

Sentinel, you are a moderator and it is your duty to post things that you have made an effort to ensure is correct.

As a reminder, please post the site where you get these articles for all to see.

And for a more valid proof of your arguments, I suggest you find a SHIA site which talks of the Incompleteness of the quran. That would work in your favor. There are many on the site. I challenge you to pick any of your choice to prove your argument.

Otherwise, I am afraid that like others who are misled in their beliefs, you have fallen a victim to misunderstanding.

All Shias believe in the COMPLETENESS of the Qur'an. Period.

Also, what Tauheed differences are you talking about. Please let everyone on this board know.

Let's stop the propaganda and deceitfulness, either intentional or unintentional.

[This message has been edited by Gandalf (edited May 30, 2002).]

I can’t believe this is coming from a misinformed “moderator” is it because of hatred or something else..

Anyways I’m trying to stay away from all these arguments , it doesnt lead anywhere.

Brother Gandalf showed tremendous patience and did great job in removing the misconceptions and lies..

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

[quote]
Originally posted by buttJee:
JUST LISTEN a MAJLIS of sheeas and u will come to know who r they !!!
[/quote]

What's wrong with the majlis of shias?

Assalaamalikum. im new to this board. i just joined b'cos i saw this debate on shia's and sunni's. well i think arguing like this is what non-,uslims really want - ''divide and conquer''. im not an expert but in the Prophet's time werent the differences talked thru? sensibly? the big thing for me about shias i their lack of respect for the caliphs. last year i met some shia who cursed so badly at Abu Bakr, Umar, Usman (peace be upon them all) that personally now i just avoid shias completely cos sortf like now i just get angry thinking about it. these were the companions of the Prophet and part of the best community that evers existe, theres even Hadith regarding them and i think any1 who swears at them just ought to be... im not the best of Muslims myself but I hope id never reduce to anything like that.

Ibrahim says: salaams to all
Sherrybaba, why would the moderator be misinformed when Gnadalf the deciving shai is admitting that

Ibrahim says: Are You now going to claim he was not a shia but an ahmadi??

Ibrahim says: sure keep your head underground and spit when you get a chance and be sure it will lead you to the fire, not just anywhere., when you cannot understand the shia doctrine is created by the jews who believed in Eliyah
Read Malachi

Romanised Hebrew:

hineeh ‘aanokiy sholeexa laakem ‘eet ‘** eeliyaah** hanaabiy’ lipneey bow’ yowm Yahweh hagaadowl whanowraa’.
Pronounced ** aw li ** yaah
Meaning

4: 5. "See, I will send you the ** prophet Elijah** before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes.

Al-Tirmidhi Hadith Hadith 6093 Narrated by ** Ali ibn AbuTalib**

** Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) said to him,** “You have a resemblance to Jesus whom the ** Jews hated so much that they slandered his mother ** and whom the Christians loved so much that they placed him in a position not rightly his.” Ali afterwards said, ** “Two people will perish on my account, one who loves me so excessively that he praises me for what I do not possess, and one who hates me so much that he will be impelled by his hatred to slander me.”**

Ahmad transmitted it.

Ibrahim says : ** So TAKE HEED be very careful as to what you say and whom you praise, out of pride and slander out of hatred **

[quote]
Brother Gandalf showed tremendous patience and did great job in removing the misconceptions and lies..

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

Ibrahim says: you mean ** he claimed Umar (ra) as the MASTER of Muslims and slandered the Ummul Momineen of the Muslims and ahlul bait of the Prophet (pbuh) and claimed imams who sanctioned prostitution as infallible, comparing them with the Qur’an and prophets don’t you??**

In addition to that when he was unable to answer questions, ** he begins to calling others dogs,** bravo! what a Shia??, one who tries to claim he is Muslim when all the time he is behaving like a true Shia practicing taqiyah to the core , with hatred and vile behavior against the Muslims.

Was salaam
Ibrahim

** If clouds remains in your mind water will fall form your eyes **

well i don’t know much abt the changing in the text of Quran etc. but i have an english translation of Quran which explicitly tells in the begining that this translation has been approved by the scholars of both shia and sunni belief.

Now if these both sects have such major differences regarding Quran then how can they agree on a single translation of Quran

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/confused.gif

what i know that sheeas are kafir and thats it the worst kafir in this universe

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hehe.gif

okay, where did you get this information, from a molvi? or did you find any Quranic verse about them?

anyway, though I am myself a sunni, I do not like labelling anyone as “kaafir” (let alone “worst Kafir”) who believes in Allah SWT and His Prophets, Books, Angels. Please read Quran to verify (Surah Baqara, 02:285)


May Allah SWT guide us all towards right and help us follow the right

[This message has been edited by Changez_like (edited May 31, 2002).]