[quote]
Originally posted by buttJee:
*what i know that sheeas are kafir and thats it the worst kafir in this universe *
[/quote]
Kafir??????....and the worst Kafir????
Who do you think you are? What makes you think so? I just don't understand.
Peace
[quote]
Originally posted by buttJee:
*what i know that sheeas are kafir and thats it the worst kafir in this universe *
[/quote]
Yes, Shias are regarded as worse than the Jews.
Brother, our Scholars were oceans of Knowledge. Be assured that they were aware the verse you are quoting.
Imam ** Abu Hanifah ** (one of the 4 Imams) had ** personally met 4 SAHAABA ** . He was an ocean of Knowledge.
http://www.islamicweb.com/beliefs/cults/shia_rule.htm
Imaam Abu Hanifah
It was reported that often Abu Haneefah used to repeat the following statement about the Shi`ites, ** "Whoever * doubts * whether they are disbelievers has * himself committed disbelief. * " **
Why shias are regarded worse than jews? Is it because Hezbollah (the shia one) are killing jews, that's why?
I don't understand.
peace
I think anyone that goes around calling people Kafirs, needs to find something better to do.
Well i believe no body has the authority to call shias kafirs. I mean Kafir is a person who denies Allah and well i have yet to see one shia denying that fact.
Now coming to the reasons of conflict b/w sunnis and shia... wel i have shia friends and seriously they don't know abt half the things u ppl say abt them....why is that so?
simple answer because sunnis and shias have both distorted history to make their own ends meet and the people who did that of course wanted to break the Muslim Ummah so why succumb to their desires?
you cant call non-muslims kafirs because
they were never muslims or they did not convert from muslim to non-muslim.
[quote]
Originally posted by Khoon-e-Shaheed:
**
Imam ** Abu Hanifah ** (one of the 4 Imams) had ** personally met 4 SAHAABA ** . He was an ocean of Knowledge.
" ** **
[/quote]
Which 4 sahaba?
[quote]
Originally posted by rvikz:
you cant call non-muslims kafirs because
they were never muslims or they did not convert from muslim to non-muslim.
[/quote]
kafir means an infidel...a person who doesnot believe in Allah...this term is not restricted for those ppl who convert from muslim to no-muslim
**Relevant comments only.
Sentinel.**
[This message has been edited by Sentinel (edited June 03, 2002).]
Imam ** Abu Hanifah ** met ** * ATLEAST * ** 4 Sahaaba (R).
One of them was the ** great Sahaabi Scholar ** (regarding whom the Holy Prophet (S) had made a special du’a) ** Hazrat Anas bin Malik (R) ** .
.
.
http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=396
When My servants ask you concerning Me, ** I am indeed close (to them): I listen to the prayer of every suppliant when he calls on Me: ** Let them also, with a will, Listen to My call, and believe in Me: That they may walk in the right way. (Holy Qur’an 2:186)
[This message has been edited by Khoon-e-Shaheed (edited June 03, 2002).]
How much time elapsed between Prophet and Imam Abu Haniffa?
I am planning to launch a project that would entail reconciliation between Shia's and Sunnis in Pakistan. The emphasis would be Religious Peace Building among the various sects and minorities in Pakistan.
This is an idea in my mind which has been there since a lonnnnnnnng time. But seeing the complexity of the situation, the deep rooted antagonisms, the devastating consequenses(the killings I mean), I just try to abandon the whole proposal.
Sectarianism is a menace thats destroying the social fabric of our society. Why cannot we live like Muslims instead of creating divisions and drawing lines. Here here, I donot intend to say that there should be no Shia or Sunni(each and every person has a right to practice thier own faith), but the fact that considering the other as infidel, categorizing the people as 'us' vs 'them' would lead us no where.
My question is why cant we be content with what we are and what we have instead of pointing towards the others. IF I am going to launch such an initiative would any body support me. Don't you think we need soul searching here. Killing each others scholars, acadamecians, doctors entails killing the very brains , the very fortunate few educated people of our own country. Irrespective of whether the doctor who is killed and acadamician who is murdered is Shia or Sunni, he or she was rendering services for the common good of all.
Don't you think there should be strict laws promulgated where by all such elements producing and publishing slandrous articles be they against the campanions of the prophets or the shias must be banned.
I am not an authority over this subject but as a concerned citizen, I feel pain to see the sorry state of affairs. Do you think its a worth while cause to work in this regard.
Brother KS, I doubt such words from Abu Hanifa. This is very weak argument. No matter who is “ocean of knowledge”, you got to prove your notion using Quran first. If Quran agrees that they are “believers” then I wouldn’t take any words from anyone even if it be from Imam Abu Hanifa (rahimullah alihi).
If believing in Quran (02:285) is “committing disbelief”, I shall continue to do so until a shia comes out and says that he does not fit in criteria of 02:285 (denies existence of Allah SWT, or messengers, angels, Books). My belief is between Allah and myself, He knows best what I believe in and what I understand.
May Allah SWT guide us all towards the right, and help us understand Quran, follow Sunnah and remove misunderstandings between all Muslims/believers.
May Allah SWT guide us all towards right and help us follow the right
[quote]
Originally posted by google:
**
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Khoon-e-Shaheed:
How much time elapsed between Prophet and Imam Abu Haniffa? **
[/quote]
If I remember correctly, Imam Abu Hanifah (rah.) was born in the year 80 H. (So around 70 Hijri years after the death of the Holy Prophet (S) ) .
So, in a nutshell, the years and years of labour and studying of Imam Abu Hanifah (and his consulting with the Scholars of great repute) fails infront of your knowledge (which I presume you’ve gained usually by reading and NOT studying) ?
If that’s what you are saying brother, then I’m sorry, but it sounds very arrogant.
Yes, you’ve the right to ask for proof. I don’t deny you that right. But, atleast, when it is coming from such a reputable scholar (who has about ** 1300 years of Ijma’ (consensus) in his favor , ** and Ijma’ (consensus) within the Ummah is infallible initself according to the Holy Prophet (S)), maybe you should have ** first ** accepted it, and ** then ** asked for proof ?
I think, behaving like a ** seeker of knowledge ** would be more appropriate and graceful.
Many of us read only the translation of a few verses of the Qur’an and start acting like Scholars. While our Scholars have spent their lives learning about the deen.
Why Shias have been called Kafirs is a long discussion. You can read some articles here:
http://www.islamicweb.com/beliefs/cults/shia.htm
I’ll Insha Allah continue the discussion in the next post.
Wassalaam u 'Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakaatuh
[quote]
Originally posted by Changez_like:
** No matter who is "ocean of knowledge", you got to prove your notion using Quran first.
If believing in Quran (02:285) is "committing disbelief", I shall continue to do so until a shia comes out and says that he does not fit in criteria of 02:285 (denies existence of Allah SWT, or messengers, angels, Books).
**
[/quote]
Assalaam u 'Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakaatuh
Assumptions my brother, Assumptions !
Let me quote the Aayat:
002.285
YUSUFALI: The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His messengers. "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His messengers." And they say: "We hear, and we obey: (We seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys."
Now, ** NOWHERE does it say that anyone who claims to believe in this CANNOT be called a Kafir. **
Secondly, The Qur'an describes the believers in many places, with ** different descriptions. **
You've to take ** ALL of the Qur'an ** collectively. You'll agree that a person can't just believe in one part or stick to one part of the Qur'an, and deny the other.
Now, another question: The ** Kharjis ** and the ** followers of "musaylmah" ** (who had claimed prophethood and was defeated by Hadrat Abu Bakr (R)) had been ** DECLARED KAFIRS by the * SAHAABA * ** .
Be assured, the Sahaaba were also aware of this aayat of the Holy Qur'an.
Now, this leaves us with ** ONLY 2 ** possible conclusions (and only one would be right):
(1) Either the Sahaaba were wrong and you are right (Na'oodhubillah)
(2) Or the Sahaaba were right and you are wrong.
Another way of explaining it is this:
If a person consumes alcohol and commits adultery but ** ADMITS ** that he's sinning and that it is ** prohibited ** in Islam, then that person is ** NOT a Kafir, ** but a sinner.
However, if a person observes his 5 daily prayers and other obligations of Islam, does ** NOT ** consume ** alcohol *, and does NOT commit adultery, * BUT ** claims that consuming alcohol is ** NOT ** prohibited in Islam, and refuses to change his position even after been given proof , then ** he is a Kafir, EVEN THOUGH he himself does NOT consume alcohol. ** He is infact denying the Qur'an.
Maybe that helps Changez.
And having an attitude that you'll not follow the scholars unless you see the proof yourself (and you yourself make no effort to find out the proof) is actually very suicidal. You have the right to ask for proof, but not following something till you see the proof yourself (inspite of the injunctions of the Scholars) is something not very intelligent. Because, It's like comparing a person in an isolated trible claiming that ** unless he does not HIMSELF see an airplane flying in the sky, he'll refuse to believe that an airplane exists. **
What would you call a person who refuses to stop drinking alcohol (inspite of the warning of the Scholars) just because he has ** yet not ** come across the aayat of the Qur'an that forbids alchol ?
My brother, I mean no disrespect to you. I hope you'll not find my post offensive.
Take care, and remember me in your du'as.
May Allah guide us all to the truth. Aameen.
Wassalaam u 'Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakaatuh
When My servants ask you concerning Me, ** I am indeed close (to them): I listen to the prayer of every suppliant when he calls on Me: ** Let them also, with a will, Listen to My call, and believe in Me: That they may walk in the right way. (Holy Qur'an 2:186)
[This message has been edited by Khoon-e-Shaheed (edited June 04, 2002).]
remember what happened when the heavens were inhabited by only adam and eve and the devil? they found something to be the point of conflict
human nature, primitive as it is, dictates we must find quarrel before peace, at any scale
Better to die 1000 times in glory than live without honor-Louis VI
[This message has been edited by OldLahori (edited June 04, 2002).]
Brother Khoon, I apologize if you got offended by my post but that was not my intention. I do respect Imam Abu Hanifa as any other Sunni does, and I do take most of his fiqh (almost all) but that does not mean that I can't disagree. I am on my own trying to find if the accusations on Shias hold any truth.
Read what you had posted "Imaam Abu Hanifah
It was reported that often Abu Haneefah used to repeat the following statement about the Shi`ites, "Whoever doubts whether they are disbelievers has himself committed disbelief. "
Now, this basically pushes you to a cliff that you should not even think that they are Muslims, right? However, I doubt that Imam Abu Hanifa would have said that. If there existed fabricated hadith (putting words in Prophet PBUH's mouth) then why can't people do to others?
You also suggested that I be a "seeker of knowledge", if I am to consider Shias as Kafir why'd I bother find out if they are or not?
Anyway, I'm responsible for my deeds and beliefs and as per Quran and Sunnah I think I'm fine in terms of beliefs.
May Allah SWT guide us all towards right and help us follow the right