[quote]
Originally posted by Gandalf:
**
The voice of a broken tape recorder once again.
4) Shias love the righteous wives of the prophet (pbuh) and the righteous sahabah Ikram.
**
[/quote]
First of all, you are not addressing the real issues in my post, instead you are giving a lecture on the beliefs of the Shias.
Secondly, ** Who are YOU to decide which of the Wives and Companions of the Holy Prophet (S) were righteous or not ? **
** You call yourself a "Hanafi" Sunni Muslim
** , but are bold enough to tell us that the those Companions whom the Shia respect are righteous (and implying those whom they don't are not righteous !!!) Of the 120,000 + Sahaaba, only 3 or 7 were righteous ???
Also, the Blessed Wives of the Holy Prophet (S) are ** OUR MOTHERS ** - The Qu'ran says that. Now, ** Who has given the Shias the right to curse them , or decide who are pious and who are not ?? **
It's like saying, someone comes upto another person and says ** " I think your Mama is a slut" ** . I mean, don't you think the person would respond by ** " Who are YOU to decide what my Mom is ?" **
Now, picture yourself in that person's position. How would you feel ?
Oh, so you state that you have read the Qur'aan and only quote from it's ayats!
Right.
The next time you quote from the Qur'aan, I will ask you your understanding of the ayat, the Synopsis and Context of the quote, your Arabic understanding of the translation in English or Hindi, and your own belief in cognito or contradiction of the ayat?
This way, you will definitely learn the lessons you yearn for!!!
[quote]
Originally posted by saimahasnain: .....
2) Shias believe in the finality of Prophet Muhammed(pbuh), who was the greatest of all Messengers, etc etc
...
[/quote]
where do you get the notion that Prophet Mohammed PBUH was "greatest of all Messengers"???
I read in Quran that we are not supposed to "differentiate" between prophets, if we regard one as "greatest" than it is violation of Quran, isn't it?
Read:
[285] The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His Books, and His Messengers. "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His Messengers." And they say: "We hear, and we obey, (we seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys."
May Allah SWT guide us all towards right and help us follow the right
I am not criticizing but trying to get at the Truth.
You know, you can’t claim a Logical, Perfect Religion on one hand and accept ‘Hadith’ like ‘God Hates Those Who Yawn’ on the other.
I know, Hindus believe and practice worse, but then they don’t claim a ‘Pure’ , ‘Logical’ Religion!!!
Does the "hadith" really say that God "hates" or did the hadith say that God does not like?? would you mind giving me the EXACT hadith? anyway, this hadith even if it is, does not make up article of faith, probably just there to give you message that when you are 'in link' with Allah SWT don't yawn...
just like when you are talking to someone and if he/she yawns you get the message that he/she is either not interested in talking to you or bored with you etc. how would you feel?
but again, it really does not mean that you cannot yawn at other times.
May Allah SWT guide us all towards right and help us follow the right**
A question was asked and I happened to know of the answer.
Why is it so hard to believe on this forum that I know some things about shiaism ? Does my belief in the Hanfi school of thought change my natural instinct to study other beliefs ?
Ibrahim and Khoon apparently seem to know alot about shiaism but I do not see you getting ticked with their type of info.
Or may be that is the exact type of info you are hoping to hear ?
Take a break from guessing who I am and just analyze the info that I provide.
If you feel that it is incorrect, you can present yr own information or wait for the shia brothers/sisters on this forum to answer yr question.
Peace be with you.
w’salam
A Wizard arrives neither early nor late, but precisely when he chooses to
[quote]
Originally posted by Changez_like:
** where do you get the notion that Prophet Mohammed PBUH was "greatest of all Messengers"???
I read in Quran that we are not supposed to "differentiate" between prophets, if we regard one as "greatest" than it is violation of Quran, isn't it?
Read:
[285] The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His Books, and His Messengers. "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His Messengers." And they say: "We hear, and we obey, (we seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys."
**
[/quote]
Brother Changez;
One shia source is Najul Balagah, where a sermon of Hazrat Ali (ra) goes as follows:
The Prophet's nobility of descent
I stand witness that He is just and does justice, He is the arbiter Who decides (between right and wrong). I also stand witness that Muhammad is His slave, His Messenger and the Chief of His creatures.
Whenever Allah divided the line of descent, He put him in the better one, and therefore, no evil-doer ever shared with him nor was any vicious person his partner.
[quote]
Originally posted by Ibrahim:
** Ibrahim says : salaams to all
Gandalf dear, you exposed yourself, the moment your wrote this
our Master Umar (ra) cursed his daughter, Hafsa,...
Only a bigoted shia slanders the companions/Muslims in this manner
**
[/quote]
Brother Ibrahim;
May Allah (swt) forgive your suspicions. I was referring to the following hadith in Sahih Bukhari. Please read the lines in bold:
Volume 6, Book 60, Number 435:
Narrated Ibn Abbas:
For the whole year I had the desire to ask 'Umar bin Al-Khattab regarding the explanation of a Verse (in Surat Al-Tahrim) but I could not ask him because I respected him very much. When he went to perform the Hajj, I too went along with him. On our return, while we were still on the way home. 'Umar went aside to answer the call of nature by the Arak trees. I waited till he finished and then I proceeded with him and asked him. "O chief of the Believers! Who were the two wives of the Prophet who aided one another against him?" He said, "They were Hafsa and 'Aisha." Then I said to him, "By Allah, I wanted to ask you about this a year ago, but I could not do so owing to my respect for you." 'Umar said, "Do not refrain from asking me. If you think that I have knowledge (about a certain matter), ask me; and if I know (something about it), I will tell you." Then Umar added, "By Allah, in the Pre-lslamic Period of Ignorance we did not pay attention to women until Allah revealed regarding them what He revealed regarding them and assigned for them what He has assigned. Once while I was thinking over a certain matter, my wife said, "I recommend that you do so-and-so." I said to her, "What have you got to do with the is matter? Why do you poke your nose in a matter which I want to see fulfilled.?" She said, How strange you are, O son of Al-Khattab! You don't want to be argued with whereas your daughter, Hafsa surely, argues with Allah's Apostle so much that he remains angry for a full day!" 'Umar then reported; how he at once put on his outer garment and went to Hafsa and said to her, "O my daughter! Do you argue with Allah's Apostle so that he remains angry the whole day?" Hafsa said, "By Allah, we argue with him." 'Umar said, "Know that I warn you of Allah's punishment and the anger of Allah's Apostle . . . O my daughter! Don't be betrayed by the one who is proud of her beauty because of the love of Allah's Apostle for her (i.e. 'Aisha)." 'Umar addled, "Then I went out to Um Salama's house who was one of my relatives, and I talked to her. She said, O son of Al-Khattab! It is rather astonishing that you interfere in everything; you even want to interfere between Allah's Apostle and his wives!' By Allah, by her talk she influenced me so much that I lost some of my anger. I left her (and went home). At that time I had a friend from the Ansar who used to bring news (from the Prophet) in case of my absence, and I used to bring him the news if he was absent. In those days we were afraid of one of the kings of Ghassan tribe. We heard that he intended to move and attack us, so fear filled our hearts because of that. (One day) my Ansari friend unexpectedly knocked at my door, and said, "Open Open!' I said, 'Has the king of Ghassan come?' He said, 'No, but something worse; Allah's Apostle has isolated himself from his wives.' I said, 'Let the nose of 'Aisha and Hafsa be stuck to dust (i.e. humiliated)!' Then I put on my clothes and went to Allah's Apostle's residence, and behold, he was staying in an upper room of his to which he ascended by a ladder, and a black slave of Allah's Apostle was (sitting) on the first step. I said to him, 'Say (to the Prophet ) 'Umar bin Al-Khattab is here.' Then the Prophet admitted me and I narrated the story to Allah's Apostle. When I reached the story of Um Salama, Allah's Apostle smiled while he was lying on a mat made of palm tree leaves with nothing between him and the mat. Underneath his head there was a leather pillow stuffed with palm fibres, and leaves of a saut tree were piled at his feet, and above his head hung a few water skins. On seeing the marks of the mat imprinted on his side, I wept. He said.' 'Why are you weeping?' I replied, "O Allah's Apostle! Caesar and Khosrau are leading the life (i.e. Luxurious life) while you, Allah's Apostle though you are, is living in destitute". The Prophet then replied. 'Won't you be satisfied that they enjoy this world and we the Hereafter?' "
ws
[This message has been edited by Gandalf (edited May 17, 2002).]
[quote]
Originally posted by Gandalf: May Allah (swt) forgive your suspicions.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says : salaams to all
Gandalf dear,
** 1)** Can you tell me where in that hadith Umar(ra) declared himself ** Master of Muslims ** or why would any Muslim consider anyone other than Allah (swt) as his Master? ?
2) Do you know any family on this planet, where a Husband and wife had NEVER argued or have disagreements amongst themselves, at any point in time?
** 3)** do you know what to curse means?
Read!
** curse **
1 : a prayer or invocation for harm or injury to come upon one : IMPRECATION
2 : something that is cursed or accursed
3 : evil or misfortune that comes as if in response to imprecation or as retribution
Ibrahim says : the very fact that you read a hadith and based on your misconception, you propagate that the women Allah (swt) enjoined as the chosen Prophet’s wives were accursed , shows what little knowledge you have in Islam or the hatred of Islam and Muslims!
Read!
24:26 ** Women impure are for men impure and men impure are for women impure; and women of purity are for men of purity and men of purity are for women of purity: these are not affected by what people say: for them there is forgiveness and a provision honorable**
Ibrahim says; Let me repeat: ** for them there is forgiveness and a provision honorable**
and
read
33:6 ** The Prophet is closer to the Believers than their own selves and his wives are their mothers.** Blood-relations among each other have closer personal ties in the Decree of Allah than (the Brotherhood of) Believers and Muhajirs: nevertheless do ye what is just to your closest friends: such is the writing in the Decree (of Allah)
Ibrahim says : hence only the ignorant or arrogant or the wiliest of mankind will accuse or consider his own spiritual mothers was cursed .
but that is not the only reason why I declared that you are a shia, my reason was because you took a companion of the Prophet and a pious Muslim and snide that he was Master for Muslims. Is a despicable conduct and it seems mostly present amongst the shi’ites when they talk about the companions whom they believe usurped Ali (ra)
Allah (swt) knows best
Was salaam
Ibrahim
** he who stops getting better seizes being good **
[quote]
Originally posted by Gandalf:
**
Brother Changez;
One shia source is Najul Balagah, where a sermon of Hazrat Ali (ra) goes as follows:
The Prophet's nobility of descent
I stand witness that He is just and does justice, He is the arbiter Who decides (between right and wrong). I also stand witness that Muhammad is His slave, His Messenger and the Chief of His creatures.
Whenever Allah divided the line of descent, He put him in the better one, and therefore, no evil-doer ever shared with him nor was any vicious person his partner.
ws**
[/quote]
which one do you believe in to be ABSOLUTE TRUTH: Quran or Hadith?
May Allah SWT guide us all towards right and help us follow the right
Ibrahim says : the very fact that you read a hadith and based on your misconception, you propagate that the women Allah (swt) enjoined as the chosen Prophet’s wives were accursed , shows what little knowledge you have in Islam or the hatred of Islam and Muslims!
Read!
24:26 ** Women impure are for men impure and men impure are for women impure; and women of purity are for men of purity and men of purity are for women of purity: these are not affected by what people say: for them there is forgiveness and a provision honorable**
Ibrahim says; Let me repeat: ** for them there is forgiveness and a provision honorable**
**
[/quote]
Brother Ibrahim;
Leaving your shia accusation aside for the momemt, let me inform you that the quranic verse that you are quoting:
[Shakir 24:26] Bad women are for bad men and bad men are for bad women. Good women are for good men and good men are for good women
says that the wives of the Holy Prophet are free from impurity of adultery.
This verse is like verse 3 of this surah. There is no legislative significance. The pure consort with the pure, and the impure with the impure. It refers to the general pattern of human behaviour.
Let me remind you of verse 10 of surah Tahrim that says that the wicked wives of Nuh and Lut betrayed their purified husbands, the prophets of Allah.
[Shakir 66:10] Allah sets forth an example to those who disbelieve the wife of Nuh and the wife of Lut: they were both under two of Our righteous servants, but they acted treacherously towards them so they availed them naught against Allah, and it was said: Enter both the fire with those who enter.
It is made clear that in the matters of conduct even the wives of the prophets who were false to their husbands cannot claim immunity from the application of law on the ground that they are the wives of a messenger of Allah. They will be punished like any other wicked woman. There is personal accountability before the Lord. One soul cannot claim the merits of another.
To remove the contradiction of verse 24:26 that you have quoted, it is necessary to restrict the meaning of the cleanness to chastity and impurity to adultery in this verse, because it was revealed in connection with the accusation of adultery. "They are free from what they say" confirms it.
Verse 10 of At Tahrim clearly accuses the wicked wives of the two prophets of disloyalty to their husbands. The wives of the prophets are free from the dirt of adultery but they are not free from other evils.
I suggest you learn and understand the meanings of the verses that you post more carefully in the future. Umm Momineen Aisha (ra) Hafsa (ra) are Mother of all Believers but this title does not give them immunity from transgression against the holy prophet (pbuh).
[quote]
[Shakir 24:26] Bad women are for bad men and bad men are for bad women. Good women are for good men and good men are for good women says that the wives of the Holy Prophet are free from impurity of adultery.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: Salaams to all
Gandalf dear,
Lets look at that verse from six translators , YOUR bad habit of splicing scripture has already been warned against from the Qur’an itself.
[Surah 24:26]
*YUSUFALI: *
Women impure are for men impure, and men impure for women impure and women of purity are for men of purity, and men of purity are for women of purity: ** these are not affected by what people say: for them there is forgiveness, and a provision honourable. **
*PICKTHAL: *
Vile women are for vile men, and vile men for vile women. Good women are for good men, and good men for good women; such are innocent of that which people say: ** For them is pardon and a bountiful provision. **
NOBLE QURAN
Bad statements are for bad people (or bad women for bad man ) And bad people for bad statements (or bad men for bad women )
Good statements are for good people ( or good women for good men) and good people for good statements ( or good men for good women) : ** such (good people ) are innocent of (every) bad statement which they say : for them is forgiveness and Rizqun karim (generous provision i.e. Paradise) **
TB IRVING
Bad women are for bad men and bad men are for bad women, while good women are for good men and good men are for good women ** The latter are absolved from anything they may say; they will have forgiveness and generous provisions. **
THE HOLY QURAN
Women impure are for men impure, and men impure for women impure and women of purity are for men of purity, and men of purity are for women of purity: ** these are not affected by what people say: for them there is forgiveness, and a provision honorable. **
SHAKIR:
Bad women .are for bad men and bad men are for bad women. Good women are for good men and good men are for good women ** ????????????????????MISSING AYAH?????????????????????**
Ibrahim says : ** can you explain why shakir lost a part of the Qur’an when he omits the end parts of that ayah
** DO YOU NOW UNDERSTAND WHY SHIA’s are MISGUIDED PEOPLE? They adjust the Qur’an to suit their purpose and they originally NEVER believed that this was the true Qur’an according to their owns books and ancestors, even though the current shia ( including you) may claim otherwise. **
**Allahu Akbar!
Allahu Akbar!
Allahu Akbar!
The deceit is exposed for all to see**
I did not know shia translators resorted to such things too in order to spread their misconceptions .
[quote]
This verse is like verse 3 of this surah. There is no legislative significance. The pure consort with the pure, and the impure with the impure. It refers to the general pattern of human behaviour.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: By Allah it seems you will say anything to suit your assertions, A verse in the Qur’an is a verse it is there because of its significance and any one who resorts to claming such things are slandering the Qur’an.
Read!
39: 27 ** We have put forth for men in this Qur'an every kind of Parable in order that they may receive admonition. **
28 ** (It is) a Qur'an in Arabic without any crookedness (therein): in order that they may guard against Evil. **
[quote]
Let me remind you of verse 10 of surah Tahrim that says that the wicked wives of Nuh and Lut betrayed their purified husbands, the prophets of Allah.
[Shakir 66:10] Allah sets forth an example to those who disbelieve the wife of Nuh and the wife of Lut: they were both under two of Our righteous servants, but they acted treacherously towards them so they availed them naught against Allah, and it was said: Enter both the fire with those who enter.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says :Are you claiming the Wicked wives who were disbeliveers of other prophets and Allah apostle’s wives who were believers are one and the same.?? Are you aware of some secret matters that you alone knew that some of the Apostle’s wives were unbelievers ( Nauzubillah)
Indeed Allah (swt) is the best of knower when He declared , the Prophet’s wives as the mother of believers, do you suppose He made a mistake as to what they will be doing at any time in the future?
[quote]
It is made clear that in the matters of conduct even the wives of the prophets who were false to their husbands cannot claim immunity from the application of law on the ground that they are the wives of a messenger of Allah. They will be punished like any other wicked woman. There is personal accountability before the Lord. One soul cannot claim the merits of another.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says Good, now THINK, when Allah (swt) revealed an ayah ( 33:6) do you think, Allah (swt) did not know the future as to whom will be forgiven and whom will not be forgiven for their actions or who is an unbeliever , who is hypocrite and who is a believer deserving exultations in the Qur’an?
Second let me re-quote this ayah that the shias are hiding, for you to read again
24:26 Bad women are for bad men and bad men are for bad women, while good women are for good men ** and good men are for good women The latter are absolved from anything they may say; they will have forgiveness and generous provisions. **
[quote]
To remove the contradiction of verse 24:26 that you have quoted, it is necessary to restrict the meaning of the cleanness to chastity and impurity to adultery in this verse, because it was revealed in connection with the accusation of adultery. "They are free from what they say" confirms it.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says; Yes, THINK! when what they say about adultery, a very serious accusation against innocent people ( punishable by death and implicated for life) can be forgiven why would Allah (swt) or the Prophet (pbuh), not forgive petty jealousy amongst the wives of the Prophet (pbuh) ?
[quote]
Verse 10 of At Tahrim clearly accuses the wicked wives of the two prophets of disloyalty to their husbands. The wives of the prophets are free from the dirt of adultery but they are not free from other evils.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says : were you a witness to this with regards to prophet Muhammad (pbuh) ? What evils did they (his wives) commit that The Prophet and Allah (swt) did not forgive?
[quote]
I suggest you learn and understand the meanings of the verses that you post more carefully in the future.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says Thanks for your suggestion and let me advise you again not to omit parts of verses in the future!
In addition why are you negating the verses, when clearly they say that Allah (swt) had made the wives of the Prophet your mother? Are you in doubt about Allah (swt) abilities to know the unknown??
[quote]
Umm Momineen Aisha (ra) Hafsa (ra) are Mother of all Believers but this title does not give them immunity from transgression against the holy prophet (pbuh).
[/quote]
Ibrahim says : Apparently I have to teach you the meanings of words
** transgress **
1 : to go beyond limits set or prescribed by : VIOLATE
2 : to pass beyond or go over (a limit or boundary)
verb intransitive
1 : to violate a command or law : SIN
2 : to go beyond a boundary or limit
1) now tell me how did the wives transgress, which amounted to EVIL that can never be forgiven?
2) and why are you certain the Prophet did not overlook and forgive any disliked actions by his wives after awhile, just like most Married couples on this planet ?
** Again I REPEAT, TELL US WHY THE Shia translator omitted part of verse 24:26??? **
Regards
Ibrahim
** Stick with love, hate is too great a burden to bear **
Adopt a more Islamic debate style and we may make some progress here. Your shia rhetoric is a waste of time both for yrself as well as for the reader who has to wade through the sea of nonsense that you post.
You say that I spliced ayat 24:26 ? I was merely high-lighting the portion of the ayat that you are using to imply that all wives of the prophet (pbuh) are good as per verse 33:33.
For the sake of simplicity, I post the ayat in full here:
[Pickthal 24:26] Vile women are for vile men, and vile men for vile women. Good women are for good men, and good men for good women; such are innocent of that which people say: For them is pardon and a bountiful provision.
Once again, this ayat is confirming that the wives of the prophet(pbuh) ARE FREE FROM WHAT PEOPLE ACCUSE THEM OF I.E THEY DID NOT COMMIT ADULTERY
It does not mean that they will be forgiven if they committed adultery. These are 2 different things. Get that clear in your head. The prophet's (pbuh) wives NEVER committed adultery because they are protected by Allah (swt) from such a sin.
However, they are not protected from all sins. The example of prophet Lut's wife proves this point as she was able to commit sin.
Ayat 24:26 was revealed in connection with the accusation of adultery. "such are innocent of that which people say" confirms it.
Verse 33:33 guarantees the purification of the ahl-bait from all sins. As the ayat describing prophet Lut's (as) wife shows, the wives of the prophets are free from the dirt of adultery but they are not free from other evils.
Ofcourse, the holy prophet's (pbuh) wives can restrain from evil and they can be forgiven by Allah (swt) for sins that they have committed, if they ask for forgiveness and restrain in the future.
However, the quranic ayats as well as the sahih muslim hadiths have showed the Umm Aisha (ra) and Hafsa (ra) engaged in activities that angered the holy prophet (pbuh) so much so that the prophet (pbuh) kept away from them for nearly a month.
Is this not a serious issue ?
Is it not a serious issue for Aisha (ra) and Hafsa (ra) to get a warning from Allah (swt) as seen in the following ayat:
[Shakir 66:5] Maybe, his Lord, if he divorce you, will give him in your place wives better than you, submissive, faithful, obedient, penitent, adorers, fasters, widows and virgins.
The wives of the Holy Prophet were expected to show a higher standard in behaviour, as they were in the company of the superior most teacher of manners, social behaviour and etiquette.
The Prophet had discretionary power to divorce any or all his wives, and if he did so Allah would give him good women as his wives in place of the existing wives, who were, in view of verse 5, ordinary women harbouring envy, jealousy, and ill-will against others
Now, you have dismissed this as a family fight between the prophet (pbuh) and his wives. However, the quran tells the believers, including wives how to behave in front of the prophet (pbuh):
[Shakir 49:2] O you who believe! do not raise your voices above the voice of the Prophet, and do not speak loud to him as you speak loud to one another, lest your deeds became null while you do not perceive.
The behavior of certain Umm Momineens in front of the prophet (pbuh) clearly tells us that the purified ahl-bait does not include the wives of the prophet (pbuh). The events of Mubhaila and the hadith of the cloak tell us that they included only Muhammad (pbuh), Hazrat Ali (ra), Fatima (ra), Hasan (ra), and Hussain (ra).
No individual purified by Allah (swt) would behave insolently in front of Allah's (swt) messenger.
w'salam
[This message has been edited by Gandalf (edited May 19, 2002).]
Gandalf dear, can you tell me what was Un-Islamic about my reply ?
Ibrahim says: can you point to the sea of nonsense I have posted?
Ibrahim says: that would be a lie, since I just exposed the truth behind why that ayah is so short, in case you had missed it here read http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/Forum13/HTML/005110.html and be honest about it.
Ibrahim says : That seems to be your problem (which is normally the shia allegation) that the wives had arguments with the Prophet hence they are bad, that is silly in my view. Since human beings have arguments all the time and prophets in the past had wives who disbelieved in their mission altogether and in Allah (swt) too, ( that was their trial) but no such problem existed in the life of the Final prophet (pbuh)
Ibrahim says: you did answer my question concerning why, a part of this ayah was missing in your earlier post and why the most popular translation that you and shia use is having missing ayahs ?
Ibrahim says: you seem to be stuck on the specific meaning and forgetting all ayahs have a general meaning and the general meaning for this ayah is only the Good are destined for the good and even when the good err, there is forgiveness for them.
Ibrahim says This is silly, anyone who commits adultery will be subject to the laws as prescribed by Allah (swt) in other ayahs of the Qur’an. This was not concerning the hadd for adultery but about malicious accusations like yours against innocent people.
Ibrahim says : can you tell me where I implied such things that you have come to understand?
Ibrahim says : Astagfirullah! why would they do such things when they are Muslims with full faith in Allah (swt) and his Rasool and Allah (swt) made them Ummul Momineen and assured them paradise , when they agreed to Allah (swt) terms
Ibrahim says: This is silly, because you do not seem to understand that Angels protect believers and Allah (swt) has not eared in making them ummul momineen
Read!
13: 8 ** Allah doth know what every female (womb) doth bear by how much the wombs fall short (of their time or number) or do exceed. Every single thing is before His sight in (due) proportion** .
9 ** He knoweth the Unseen and that which is open:** He is the Great the Most High.
10 It is the same (to Him) ** whether any of you conceal his speech or declare it openly; ** whether he lie hid by night or walk freely by day
11 ** For each (such person) there are (angels) in succession before and behind him: they guard him by command of Allah.** Verily never will Allah change the condition of a people until they change it themselves (with their own souls). But when (once) Allah willeth a people’s punishment there can be no turning it back nor will they find besides Him any to protect.
Ibrahim says : Gandalf do you understand this verses or are you the one to decide who is forgiven and who is not for their actions?
let me make this even more clearer to you
Read!
58:22 Thou wilt not find ** any people who believe in Allah and the Last Day loving those who resist Allah and His Apostle ** even though they were their fathers or their sons or their brothers or their kindred. ** For such He has written Faith in their hearts and strengthened them with a spirit from Himself. ** And He will admit them to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow to dwell therein (for ever). Allah will be well pleased with them and they with Him. ** They are the Party of Allah.** Truly it is the Party of Allah that will achieve Felicity
Ibrahim says Unless you are going to show us evidence that the Prophet’s wives resisted the Prophet and became murtads (nauzubilah ) as your shia books claims about all Muslims (except three persons) I suggest you do your homework and learn about Islam more.
Ibrahim says: can you tell me where in the Qur’an Prophet lut’s wives ( ahl bait) were exulted as Ummul Momineen?
Ibrahim says: you are just repeating what you said , like a worn out record. For which I had responded, If you want to discuss, follow my style and discuss according to issues raised, not keep repeating your assertions which have been tackled.
Ibrahim says: If that is your understanding then you have just contradicted yourself, because the Ahl bait includes all the wives of the Prophet (pbuh)
Ibrahim says : How silly! Everyone can sin, but prophets and their families ( when they are all believers) have angels guiding them, which will prevent them from committing any sin, that does not mean families will not have misunderstandings amongst themselves or have quarrels with others.
Ibrahim says Don’t tell me, you know when the wives asked and when they failed to ask, right? Did they ask for forgiveness or they remained wicked? (nauzubillah)
Ibrahim says: Only a month? If they had serious differences, wont they have gone their own ways? So grow up and stop adding your own notion which are based on shia fabrications into the picture.
Ibrahim says: why would it be as serious issue, when , what you quote as wicked behavior is with regards to your own misconceptions and has nothing to do with the reality of that matter
Read!
66:1 ** O Prophet! why holdest thou to be forbidden that which Allah has made lawful to thee?** Thou seekest to please thy consorts. But Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful. 5529 5530
2 Allah has already ordained for you (O men) the dissolution of your oaths (in some cases): and Allah is your Protector and He is Full of Knowledge and Wisdom. 5531
3 When the Prophet disclosed a matter in confidence to one of his consorts and she then divulged it (to another) and Allah made it known to him he confirmed part thereof and repudiated a part. Then when he told her thereof she said “Who told thee this?” He said “He told me who knows and is well-acquainted (with all things).” 5532 5533
4 If ye two turn in repentance to Him your hearts are indeed so inclined; but if ye back up each other against him truly Allah is his Protector and Gabriel and (every) righteous one among those who believe and furthermore the angels will back (him) up. 5534 5535
5 It may be if he divorced you (all) that Allah will give him in exchange Consorts better than you who submit (their wills) who believe who are devout who turn to Allah in repentance who worship (in humility) who travel (for faith) and fast previously married or virgins
** commentary by yusof Ali for above verses**
5529 The Prophet’s household was not like other households. The Consorts of Purity were expected to hold a higher standard in behaviour and reticence than ordinary women, as they had higher work to perform. See n. 3706 to xxxiii. 28. But they were human beings after all, and were subject to the weaknesses of their sex, and they sometimes failed. The commentators usually cite the following incident in connection with the revelation of these verses. It is narrated from 'Aisha, the wife of the holy Prophet (peace be on him) by Bukhari, Muslim, Nasai. Abu Dawud and others that the holy Prophet usually visited all his wives daily after 'Asr Prayer. ** Once it so happened that he stayed longer than usual at the quarters of Zainab bint Jahsh, for she had received from somewhere some honey which the holy Prophet liked very much. “At this”, says 'Aisha, “I felt jealous, and Hafsa, Sawda, Safiya, and I agreed among ourselves that when he visits us each of us would tell him that a peculiar odour came from his mouth as a result of what he had eaten, for we knew that he was particularly sensitive to offensive smells”. So when his wives hinted at it, he vowed that he would never again use honey. Thereupon these verses were revealed reminding him that he should not declare to himself unlawful that which Allah had made lawful to him. ** The important point to bear in mind is that he was at once rectified by revelation, which reinforces the fact that the prophets are always under divine protection, and even the slightest lapse on their part is never left uncorrected. (66.1)
5530 The tender words of admonition addressed to the Consorts in xxxiii. 28-34 explain the situation far better than any comments can express. If the holy Prophet had been a mere husband in the ordinary sense of the term, he could not have held the balance even between his private feelings and his public duties. ** But he was not an ordinary husband, and he abandoned his renunciation on his realisation of the higher duties with which he was charged, and which required conciliation with firmness.** (66.1)
5531 Cf. ii. 224. If your vows prevent you from doing good, or acting rightly, or making peace between persons, you should expiate the vow, but not refrain from your good deed. (66.2)
5532 ** Who these two consorts were, and what was the matter in confidence which was disclosed, we are not expressly told, but the facts mentioned in n. 5529 above will help us to understand this passage. The sacred words imply that the matter was of great importance as to the principle involved, but that the details were not of sufficient importance for permanent record.** For the lessons to be drawn, see the notes following. (66.3)
5533 The moral we have to draw is manifold.** (1) If anything is told us in confidence, especially by one at the head of affairs, we must not divulge it to our closest friend. (2) If such divulgence is made in the most secret whispers, Allah’s Plan is such that it will come to light and expose those guilty of breach of confidence. (3) The breach of confidence must inevitably redound to the shame of the guilty party** . (66.3)
5534 There are further lessons. ** (4) Both the party betraying confidence and that encouraging the betrayal must purge their conduct by repentance. (5) Frank repentance would be what their hearts and conscience themselves would dictate and they must not resist such amends on account of selfish obstinacy. (6) If they were to resist frank repentance and amends, they are only abetting each other’s wrong, and they cannot prevail against all the moral forces which will be ranged on the side of the right. ** (66.4)
5535 Do not forget the dual meaning: immediate, in application to the holy Prophet, and general, being the lesson which we ought all to learn. ** The holy Prophet could not be injured by any persons doing anything against him even though they might unconsciously put him in great jeopardy: for Allah, the Angel Gabriel (who was the Messenger to him), and the whole Community, would protect him,-to say nothing of the army of angels or hidden spiritual forces that always guarded him.** Cf. xxxiii. 56. The general lemon for us is that the good man’s protection is that of the moral forces around him; it is divine protection, against which human weakness or folly will have no power. (66.4)
5536 From the case of two in verse 4, we now come to the case of all the Consorts generally, in verse 5. Cf. xxxiii. 28-30. Their duties and responsibilities were higher than those of other women, and therefore their failure would also be more serious. This is only hypothetical, in order to show us the virtues expected of them: faith and devotion, worship and service, readiness for travel or hijrat, whether they were young or old, new to married life or otherwise. From them again the more general application follows-to all women in Islam. (66.5)
5537 Saihat: literally, those who travel. Here it means those who fast. Note that the spiritual virtues are named in the descending order: submitting their wills (Islam), faith and devotion, turning ever to worship and faith, and performing other rites, or perhaps being content with asceticism. And this applies to all women, maiden girls or women of mature experience who were widows or separated from previous husbands by divorce. (66.5)
5538 ** Note how we have been gradually led up in admonition from two Consorts to all consorts, to all women, to all Believers, and to all men and women.** We must carefully guard not only our own conduct, but the conduct of our families, and of all who are near and dear to us. For the issues are most Serious, and the consequences of a fall are most terrible. (66.6)
5539 “A Fire whose fuel is Men and Stones.” Cf. ii. 24. This is a terrible Fire: not merely like the physical fire which burns wood or charcoal or substances like that, and consumes them. This Fire will have for its fuel men who do wrong and are as hard hearted as stones, or stone Idols as symbolical of all the unbending Falsehoods in life. (66.6)
5539 Cf. lxxiv. 31. We think of the angel nature as gentle and beautiful, but in another aspect perfection includes justice, fidelity, discipline, and the firm execution of duty according to lawful commands. So, in the attributes of Allah Himself, Justice and Mercy, Kindness and Correction are not contradictory but complementary.
Ibrahim says: So your wicked deed was concerning jealousy amongst the wives, which is minor BUT because the Prophet due to this, made haram what was made halal by Allah (swt) , Allah (swt) admonished the Prophet (pbuh) in this passage, which would indeed be troubling to the Prophet (pbuh) .
Hence this passage admonishes the Prophet as well as his wives, it does not mean they sinned, it means they were admonished for their actions which caused the Prophet to make haram “honey” for himself because the wives played a prank on him.
Ibrahim says : obviously for you this is major sin, on account of your shia dogma, sadly you failed to notice verse one where the Prophet is also being advised about his actions too.
Read!
66:1 ** O Prophet! why holdest thou to be forbidden that which Allah has made lawful to thee?** Thou seekest to please thy consorts. But Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful.
Ibrahim says: o please, you are bent on accusing the wives simple because it ties in with your dogma but if ever you want to be rational, try and read the ayahs I have quoted from the beginning with a clean mind .
Ibrahim says: so it is back to square one, they were wicked because they had split into groups and were jealous of each other?
Ibrahim says : are you telling us the wives shouted at the Prophet and insulted him?
Ibrahim says: that is silly, go and read 33:6 and 33:33 where they are specifically called Ahl bait.
Ibrahim says: Read 33:6 again and wonder why it says Blood relations are closer in that ayah? If you want the answers again , which have been explained in detail in my earlier posts.
Ibrahim says: So from, ** cursed ** to ** wicked** to ** transgressors** to ** insolence**!!! man you must be one hell of an expert on the wives of the Prophet(pbuh) either that, or you have gone crazy about this, which has nothing to do with how Islam is to be practiced at this time frame.
Let me help you as usual
** insolent **
1 : insultingly contemptuous in speech or conduct : OVERBEARING
2 : exhibiting boldness or effrontery : IMPUDENT syn see PROUD
Ibrahim says: I have asked you many questions, it seems you are not man enough to answer them but keep on insisting the wives of the Prophet (pbuh) were evil, indeed you will earn the fitting reward for your persistent desire in accusing people you have Never met in your life.
Allah (swt) knows best
Was salaam
Ibrahim
** you have built castles in the AIR, now put some foundations for them **
It has become obvious now that you do not have the high regard for the holy prophet (pbuh) as Allah (swt) has commanded us.
In your attempt to protect some of the actions of certain Umm Momineen, you have suggested that the holy prophet (pbuh) himself sinned (by banning honey for himself). You conveniently over-looked the behaviors of his wives that caused distress upon the prophet (pbuh) to take such an action.
Rather than admit that the behavior of some of the wives were wrong, you have justified their behavior by saying it was inconsequential.
You dis-regarded the ayat from Allah (swt) warning them with a divorce, which in itself is very serious, so how much more coming from the AlMighty (swt).
Umm Momineen means Mother of the Faithful, but this title is meant for believers to respect them as wives of the prophet (pbuh) and with whom marriage is forbidden. But being Umm Momineen does not give them divine protection from committing sin. Allah (swt) has especially warned the wives with the following ayat:
**[Shakir 33:30] O wives of the prophet! whoever of you commits an open indecency, the punishment shall be increased to her doubly; and this IS easy to Allah.
[Shakir 33:31] And whoever of you is obedient to Allah and His Messenger and does good, We will give to her her reward doubly, and We have prepared for her an honorable sustenance.**
As such, Allah (swt) has warned them that if they sin, they will be punished doubly and if they do good, the reward in double.
You do not give warnings to those who are purified from all sins, as they do not commit any sins. This applies ONLY to the prophet (pbuh) and his purified ahl-bait, of which the wives are not apart of.
The wives of the prophet (pbuh) were able to commit sins and this can be judged by the action of some of them.
You say verse 33:33 includes the wives. Does arguing with the prophet (pbuh), being jealous of his other wives, suspecting the prophet (pbuh) mean that they were obeying the holy prophet (pbuh) as shown in the first part of this ayat:
[Shakir 33:33] And stay in your houses and do not display your finery like the displaying of the ignorance of yore; and keep up prayer, and pay the poor-rate, and obey Allah and His Messenger.
No, only you would think so in your blind support for their wrong actions.
Was Umm Momineen Aisha's (ra) war action against Hazrat Ali (ra) during the battle of Jamal obeying Allah's (swt) command in ayat 33:33 of "And stay in your houses and do not display your finery like the displaying of the ignorance of yore;"
For those who can see clearly, there is absolutely no doubt that the ahl-bait, the purified family of the holy prophet (pbuh), included only the holy prophet (pbuh) himself, his daughter, two grandson, and his cousin.
The wives were not part of the ahl-bait, as shown by authentic hadiths - the hadith of the cloak, and the hadith of Mubhaila, as well as by hadiths showing the action of some of them in front of the prophet (pbuh).
[Shakir 36:7] Certainly the word has proved true of most of them, so they do not believe.
[Shakir 36:8] Surely We have placed chains on their necks, and these reach up to their chins, so they have their heads raised aloft.
[Shakir 36:9] And We have made before them a barrier and a barrier behind them, then We have covered them over so that they do not see.
[Shakir 36:10] And it is alike to them whether you warn them or warn them not: they do not believe.
Gandalf, let me summarize all these exchanges on this thread ( since you have no will to answer my questions and also because I have entertained you long enough) so that, we can take account as to what has been achieved so far
Ibrahim :
posted May 07, 2002 06:26 PM
posted May 08, 2002 01:10 AM
posted May 08, 2002 07:50 PM
posted May 09, 2002 05:54 AM
posted May 10, 2002 11:49 PM
posted May 11, 2002 09:47 PM
posted May 12, 2002 08:17 PM
posted May 13, 2002 01:45 AM
posted May 13, 2002 06:43 PM
posted May 17, 2002 06:14 PM
posted May 17, 2002 09:49 PM
posted May 19, 2002 07:59 PM
posted May 20, 2002 03:42 AM
Gandalf :
posted May 07, 2002 07:51 PM
posted May 08, 2002 06:11 PM
posted May 08, 2002 10:24 PM
posted May 10, 2002 07:01 PM
posted May 11, 2002 07:47 PM
posted May 12, 2002 05:33 PM
posted May 12, 2002 10:10 PM
posted May 13, 2002 05:18 PM
posted May 13, 2002 06:58 PM
posted May 17, 2002 05:44 PM
posted May 17, 2002 06:47 PM
posted May 19, 2002 05:32 PM
posted May 19, 2002 11:29 PM
Ibrahim says: based on the above exchanges between Ibrahim and Gandalf the following is clear.
1) The style of responses made by Ibrahim, was such that all questions and points posed by Gandalf were dealt with systematically not avoiding anything of relevance to the issue at hand.
But Gandalf, did not follow this style and snipped off the questions and points raised by Ibrahim , which was beyond his capability to respond or avoided in order to escape from them.
2) The main issue at the beginning of this exchange was to establish the honesty of Gandalf’s claim that he was a Muslim and not a shia
Which from the way Gandalf responded in the continuing exchanges and from the repeated slanders against the companions and wives of the Prophet ( pbuh) , established the fact that he was deceiving the people of this forum .
Al-hamdullaih, It is now clear that Gandalf was deceiving us from the beginning.
3) These exchanges further established that the shias will not be able to comprehend the Qur’an as to what it says concerning the companions and wives of the Prophet but will gladly use selective hadiths , whilst denying its foot notes to slander the wives and companions of the Prophet (pbuh)
4) the whole purpose for all this by the shia is:-
a) first to cast doubts on the companions and by doing so they can cast doubts on the Qur’an ( since their Qur'an is hidden in a cave)
b) second to cast doubts on the wives such that they can deny the hadiths
Which by the Grace of Allah (swt) had not been possible for the past 1400 years but the shi’ites still keep trying and by doing so It is indeed a benefit for the Muslims at large.
As we all know that we human beings become complacent when there is nothing opposing us, the shi’ites opposition to Islam has enabled many a Muslims to seriously study their books, which Muslims have neglected and will neglect when there is nothing forcing them to do so.
** Life is a grind stone, it either grinds you down or polishes you up **
The Shiites are here to grind the Muslims, so Muslims must learn how to handle them, failing which you will be ground down .
Allah (swt) says
3: 137 ** Many were the Ways of Life that have passed away before you:** travel through the earth and see what was the end of those who rejected truth.
138 Here is a plain statement to men a guidance and instruction to those who fear Allah!
139 ** So lose not heart nor fall into despair: for ye must gain mastery if ye are true in faith.**
140 If a wound hath touched you be sure a similar wound hath touched the others. Such days (of varying fortunes) ** We give to men and men by turns: that Allah may know those that believe and that He may take to Himself from your ranks martyr-witnesses (to Truth). ** And Allah loveth not those that do wrong.
141 ** Allah's object also is to purge those that are true in faith and to deprive of blessing those that resist faith.**
142 ** Did ye think that ye would enter heaven without Allah testing those of you who fought hard (in His cause) and remained steadfast? **
Hence I have spent 10 days on this thread refuting what has been repeated over and over again by Gandalf knowing full well that he will not accept any of my replies.
Thus I have achieved my purpose which was:-
1) To establish Gandalf was a shia claiming he is Muslim. ( taqiyah)
2) To provide answers and refute all the allegations put forward by Gandalf
3) To gain mastery in how this allegations can be proven as untrue.
4) To show how the shia will willfully slander the companions and wives of the Prophet. (pbuh) in order to deny the Qur’an and hadiths
5) To show how they tend to splice hadiths and or verses of the Qur’an to make their false claims
6) In this thread we have been told by Gandalf that Umar (ra) is the Master for Muslims
7) Gandalf had repeatedly conveyed that he wives of the prophet(pbuh) were, wicked, evil, cursed, transgressors, insolent and compared with unbelievers. (Nauzubillah)
Thus my purpose had been achieved, it is up to readers to decide for themselves as to what is right and what is wrong in this exchanges
Allah (swt) conveyed…….
6: 55 Thus do We explain the Signs in detail: that the way of the sinners may be shown up.
Was salaam
Ibrahim
** when a fellow says, “It isn’t the money but the principal of the thing” – it is the money! **