shia's and sunni's

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81

Ibrahim;

Now, let's look at the following quranic verse and hadith.

From the qur'an:

[Shakir 3:61] then say: Come let us call our sons and your sons and our women and your women and our near people and your near people, then let us be earnest in prayer, and pray for the curse of Allah on the liars.

Sahih Muslim:
Book 031, Number 5915:
This hadith has been narrated. on the authority of Shu'ba with the same chain of transmitters.... (The third occasion is this) when the (following) verse was revealed:" Let us summon our children and your children." Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) called 'Ali, Fitima, Hasan and Husain and said: O Allah, they are my family.

Yes, the events of Mubhaila. Please see who the prophet (pbuh) took to this event.

The point, here, is that the Messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF) did not bring any of his wives to the field of "Mubahala", and according to above tradition, he used the word "Ahl" (family) ONLY for the above-mentioned individuals (i.e., Imam Ali, Fatimah, al-Hasan, and al-Husain).

Note that in the verse 3:61 of Quran Allah uses plural form "women" by saying "Let us bring our women", but the Prophet ONLY brought his daughter Fatimah (AS). If there were more than one woman in Ahlul-Bayt, the Prophet was required by this verse to bring them, but since there was not any other woman among his Ahlul-Bayt, he brought Fatimah (AS) only.

Again, in that incident, the Prophet explicitly mentioned who Ahlul-Bayt are, and named them one by one, and Muslim, al-Tirmidhi, al-Hakim, and many other scholars recorded that and all confirmed its authenticity. There was no mention of his wives in any of these reports.

Allah (swt) Knows Best.

[This message has been edited by Gandalf (edited May 12, 2002).]

82

[quote]
Brother Ibrahim, Your trite remarks aside;
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: Salaams to all

Dear Gandalf 

                     I quote you the Qur’an and the hadiths with its complete foot notes (with regards to hadiths) again, and you end up saying it is trite?

Brother, when the Qur’an is EXPLICIT in meaning and common sense will tell us that if anyone wished my family well, it would include ALL members of my family and not just some members in isolation. Why are you willfully having problems understanding such simple matters.

Most of all, why would it matter to us at this time frame who they aren’t?

Here it seems, your problem is arising out of the shia dogma, which insists only Ali(ra) and his wife and children are to be considered Ahl bait whereas the Muslims consider the entire family of the Prophet (pbuh) as the ahl bait i.e., His father, mother, relatives, wives and children .

Now I have given you verses from the Qur’an , IF you negate them on the basis of hadith, that is your own doing

I will quote them for you again

In the Qur’an Allah (swt and the angels had declared who are the ahl bait !

Kindly read…………….

1) Ibrahim’s wife in 11:73

2) Imran’s wife in 3:33-35.

3) Moses mother in 28:12.

4) Prophet’s wives in 33:28-34, 53, 59

Ibrahim says: let me repeat the ahl bait does not mean ONLY females but includes male members of that family too ( it also included the Prophet himself) , so your argument on gender is mute and in verse 33:33, it only addresses the wives and not any other ( as much as the shias may desire it to be otherwise)

[quote]
[Shakir 12:29] O Yusuf! turn aside from this; and (O my wife)! ask forgiveness for your fault, surely you are one of the wrong-doers. In the above verse, "O wife of Aziz" has not been mentioned and the address to Joseph (AS) looks to continue. However the transition of the address from masculine gender to feminine gender clearly shows that the second sentence is addressing the Aziz's wife and not Prophet Joseph (AS).
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: Brother, Firstly your attempt to use reasoning as above seems to be missing when it comes to Surah 33, that is sad, because the entire surah talks more about the wives and gives us details as to why they are the ahl bait.

Let me help you further to understand the Qur’an better

I quote what another Brother wrote with this regards………

[quote]
Three features of the literary style of the Holy Qur-aan must be kept in view ** if one wishes to understand the proper meaning** of a verse and the Holy Qur-aan in general:

  1. ** The Holy Qur-aan uses as few words as possible to make a statement, give an order or narrate an incident. A lot is left unsaid that can be determined by other means within the Holy Qur-aan.** This brevity is one of the most outstanding beauties and miracles of the Holy Qur-aan.

  2. ** The Holy Qur-aan puts extremely important reliance on the context of the words, phrases and sentences to determine their specific meaning. To understand the

    Holy Qur-aan properly, its phrases and sentences should never be taken in isolation of its context.**

  3. ** If something is alluded to briefly or partially in one place because the context did not require the rest of the details, it is always given fully and completely at some other place (or places) in the Holy Qur-aan. ** Hence, the meaning of any Qur-aanic term, phrase or verse must be determined in conjunctions with all its occurrences in the Holy Qur-aan and the contexts where they appear.** That is why the first and foremost principle of the exegesis (Tafseer) or explanation of the Holy Qur-aan is that the Qur-aan explains itself and determines the meanings of its own contents. It is also the reason that anyone who does not have expert knowledge of the whole Qur-aan should not try to determine the meanings of its words, phrases or verses on one’s own** .

    [/quote]

Ibrahim says: from the above explanation I pray you understand that splitting an ayah to conclude so and so is the ahl bait and the other is not, would be an erroneous thing to do, which I have repeated again and again for you to understand.

I have also made it clear to you the context as to why the wives are being specifically considered as ahl bait in this Surah. In addition I have explained why the prophet (pbuh) may have made his wives realize ( records from hadiths) that the ahl bait was not just them alone but include his children and Blood relations too which Allah (swt) had also conveyed in that same surah.

Kindly read.

33: 6 The Prophet is closer to the Believers than their own selves and his wives are their mothers. ** Blood-relations among each other have closer personal ties in the Decree of Allah** than (the Brotherhood of) Believers and Muhajirs: nevertheless do ye what is just to your closest friends: such is the writing in the Decree (of Allah).

Ibrahim says; ** Thus all the daughters, sons and close relatives ( Ali [ra] ) of the Prophet [pbuh] are all part of the ahl bait too. **

[quote]
the hadiths of the cloak narrated by Umm Momineen Aisha (ra), Umm Salma (ra), and Safiya (ra), shows that the holy prophet (pbuh) on more than one occassion clearly outlined who his ahl-bait - which were separate from his wives.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: I have explained as to why his wives (as well as the future generations, throught the hadiths) NEEDED to understand who the ahl bait included, this is due to human nature as Allah (swt) made the wives Umm al-Mu'mineen ( 33:6) and declared their purity as ahl bait (33:33) and prevented their re-marriage (33:53) and enjoined purdah for them in (33:59)

Thus the revelation of this surah would have exulted the wives to a higher status and any man who knows how people feel would take measures to ensure family harmony, which is why the wives in particular have been made to witness the ahl bait includes his daughter and son in law and grand sons too by the Prophet (pbuh) as you keep repeating in the hadiths that shias use to spread their dogma .

[quote]
Also, look up the hadith in Sahih Tirmidhi, where the holy prophet (pbuh) excluded Umm Salma (ra), the righteous wife of the holy prophet (pbuh), from the 5 in the cloak.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says brother, FIRST I asked for the exact hadith number for the above hadiths, do be kind enough to give it, so that I can verify it and use it in the future too.

Now, I repeat they may be more incidences like this, for which the hadiths for them may not have been recorded but I find the Prophets actions just and I understand why he needed to demonstrate that the ahl bait included his daughter, son in law and their children too on account of surah 33:33

I repeat this is natural human behavior, If any of your children was praised , other children may feel left out and jealousies grow on account of it , hence what the Prophet demonstrated to his wives was that they are not the only ahl bait that Allah (swt) had desired to be clean and spotless. ( 33:33)

[quote]
Sahih Muslim:
Book 031, Number 5915
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: Brother kindly quote FULL hadith ( DO NOT SPLICE QUR’AN OR HADITHS) and also include FOOT NOTE No: 2697 as printed in sahih Muslim, so that we can discuss this further

If it will make you any happier kindly read this again

33: 6 The Prophet is closer to the Believers than their own selves and his wives are their mothers. ** Blood-relations among each other have closer personal ties in the Decree of Allah** than (the Brotherhood of) Believers and Muhajirs: nevertheless do ye what is just to your closest friends: such is the writing in the Decree (of Allah).

So naturally, who do you suppose the Prophet will call upon?

Also you may want to look up the merits of the prophet’s wives in the hadiths books, such that you will have balanced view. On the other hand when Allah (swt) elevated the wives as Umm-ul-Momineen, why are you having doubts?

Hope that helps, if it does not, only Allah (swt) can help you.

Allah (swt) Knows Best.
Was salaam
Ibrahim

{b] grow up inwardly; do not just grow old and die. **

83

Brother Ibrahim;

The hadith of the cloak as well as on Mubhaila remove all doubt as to who the ahl-bait are. The action of the prophet (pbuh) to enclose under his cloak his family members and recite ayat 33:33 removes all doubt as to who formed a part of the ahl-bait.

These are further supported by quranic verses 33:33 as well as the verse on Mubhaila. Hadith 5915 again tells us who the ahl-bait are. They are none other than Hazrat Ali (ra), Fatima (ra), Hasan (ra), and Hussain (ra).

The changing of gender from feminine to masculine was shown to suggest that a different setting is taking place, where both men and women as a group are being directed to. No one is saying that ayat 33:33 in itself suggests the exclusion of the wives.

However, the hadith of the cloak, the hadith of Mubhaila, as well as the sahabi's hadith that clearly excludes the wives of the prophet (pbuh) from the ahl-bait that the prophet (pbuh) is referring to in the TWO WEIGHTY THINGS that he is leaving behind, LEAVE NO DOUBT TO any reasonable mind as to who are the ahl-bait.

The prophet (pbuh) only took Fatima (ra) to Mubhaila although the quranic ayat mentioned women - not woman. As such, this is sufficient as to what the prophet (pbuh) meant by al-bait. The prophet (pbuh) could have taken his wives - if they were indeed part of the ahl-bait. THEY WERE NOT.

In such matters, I do not take shia arguments into account but have arrived at this conclusion through our own ahl-sunnat sources as well as quranic interpretation.

Most importantly, ayat 33:33 purifies the ahl-bait with a thorough purification. However, if wives of the holy prophet (pbuh) were included in the ahl-bait, there would not be the need for Allah (swt) to threaten Umm Momineen Aisha and Hafsa with divorce due to their disobedience to the prophet (pbuh). So much so that our Master Umar (ra) cursed his daughter, Hafsa, due to her dis-obedience to the prophet (pbuh).

In addition, there are several hadiths in Sahih Bukhari and Muslim that show that Umm Momineen Aisha angered the holy prophet (pbuh) with mis-behavior. Her jealously for the prophet's (pbuh) other pious wives is also a well known fact.

All these traits suggests that what the prophet (pbuh) compared the qur'an to - his ahl-bait - and guaranteed a thorough purification - cannot include his wives.

I see that this discussion is going no where. As such, I bid you farewell from this topic in peace.

I hope other brothers and sisters on this board have had a chance to weigh the arguments on both sides of the coin.

Jaza Kallah Khairan.

A Wizard arrives neither early nor late, but precisely when he chooses to

[This message has been edited by Gandalf (edited May 12, 2002).]

84

[quote]
Originally posted by Gandalf:
The hadith of the cloak as well as on Mubhaila remove all doubt as to who the ahl-bait are.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: salaams to all

Dear Gandalf,

So the Qur’an did not tell you this????? or do you not accept what the Qur’an says? ( read my earlier post again, if do not understand what I said concerning who are the ahl bait and how they may differ.

Maybe you believe the Qur’an is three times bigger and is kept in a cave till Mahdi ( 12th imam of the shia) returns for your rejection of the quoted Quranic ayah’s ????

[quote]
The action of the prophet (pbuh) to enclose under his cloak his family members and recite ayat 33:33 removes all doubt as to who formed a part of the ahl-bait.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says read 33:6 again and think who are the blood relations of the Prophet and who are not , yet they both are part of his family ! Not difficult to do when we use our Intellect!

[quote]
These are further supported by quranic verses 33:33 as well as the verse on Mubhaila. Hadith 5915 again tells us who the ahl-bait are. They are none other than Hazrat Ali (ra), Fatima (ra), Hasan (ra), and Hussain (ra).
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: what was you fear in quoting the full hadith with its foot notes???

[quote]
However, the hadith of the cloak, the hadith of Mubhaila, as well as the sahabi's hadith that clearly excludes the wives of the prophet (pbuh) from the ahl-bait that the prophet (pbuh) is referring to in the TWO WEIGHTY THINGS that he is leaving behind, LEAVE NO DOUBT TO any reasonable mind as to who are the ahl-bait.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: I asked you why you are willing to accept a hadith and reject its foot notes, you have no answer but keep repeating the same thing over and over again, do you mean to say 1.8 billion (today) or majority Muslims for 1423 years did not understand this? Or you think only you and shias are aware of this hadith?

[quote]
The prophet (pbuh) only took Fatima (ra) to Mubhaila although the quranic ayat mentioned women - not woman. As such, this is sufficient as to what the prophet (pbuh) meant by al-bait. The prophet (pbuh) could have taken his wives - if they were indeed part of the ahl-bait. THEY WERE NOT.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: That is silly because you are now disputing you know better then the Prophet? Now do yourself a favor and read 33:6 and find out what blood relations means in English.

[quote]
In such matters, I do not take shia arguments into account but have arrived at this conclusion through our own ahl-sunnat sources as well as quranic interpretation.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: Apparently your teacher ( hanafi madhab as per your claim, which seems more and more doubtful) failed to understand that, maybe he knew better?

[quote]
However, if wives of the holy prophet (pbuh) were included in the ahl-bait, there would not be the need for Allah (swt) to threaten Umm Momineen Aisha and Hafsa with divorce due to their disobedience to the prophet (pbuh).
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: quote full verse and hadith, because you seem to HIDE parts of the narrations as shias normally do in their discussions, in trying to promote shi ism.

Just making claims without evidence is useless

Now I am still waiting for hadith numbers for your earlier quote which you SPLICED and hid the foot notes as well!

[quote]
So much so that ** our Master Umar (ra)** cursed his daughter, Hafsa, due to her dis-obedience to the prophet (pbuh).
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: Do not talk nonsense, quote proper hadiths in complete form and your deception will come to light!

** Any Muslim who believes Umar (ra) is his master needs to get help and I advise you to seek help, since your intentions are quite obvious!

The works of evil doers only bears evil fruits! **

[quote]
In addition, there are several hadiths in Sahih Bukhari and Muslim that show that Umm Momineen Aisha angered the holy prophet (pbuh) with mis-behavior. Her jealously for the prophet's (pbuh) other pious wives is also a well known fact.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: a families personal affairs has nothing to do with Islam. Allah (swt) guided the Prophet (pbuh) as well as his family and the Prophet [pbuh] loved his wives as well as his daughters, son in laws and grandsons . If you are indeed a Muslim, then you may want to be more careful as to what you say or try to imply.

[quote]
All these traits suggests that what the prophet (pbuh) compared the qur'an to - his ahl-bait - and guaranteed a thorough purification - cannot include his wives.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: ** this is utter nonsense! **

Now, If you have anything sound and if you are willing to accept all hadiths and all foot notes for them and MOST OF ALL, what the Qur’an says, then I am prepared to entertain you but if you pick and chose and reject what is not acceptable to your shia dogma, hey a whole country seem to be saying this, but they do not practice Islam they practice shi ism, so I am sure your problem is, you have confused yourself between Islam and shi'ism.

** Make no mistake Islam and shi ism are not one and the same!**

Was salaam
Ibrahim

** protect yourself from side glances, damaging comments, mad desires, and slips of the tongue **

85

yes brother Ibrahim, they r not the same but mirror images of each other.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

Take it easy and keep on lightening up Islam.
With peace to both Shia’s and Sunnis.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

86

Brother Ibrahim;

Your attempt to suggest that I am not posting the hadiths is futile. There are many hadiths to show that some of the Umm Momineen (ra) angered the prophet (pbuh).

If you do not know of the quranic verse that warned Umm Momineen Aisha & Hafsa with divorce, I suggest you read the quran more thoroughly.

I am surprised to learn that you believe the wives' behavior in front of the prophet (pbuh) is a family affair and nothing to do with Islam. May I remind you of Allah's (swt) strict order to be on the best behavior / not raise one's voice in front of the holy prophet / not anger the prophet (pbuh).

The ahl-bait who were purified by Allah (swt) never angered nor upset the holy prophet (pbuh) for they loved and obeyed him strictly - in all matters without question.

However, some of the wives upset the holy prophet (pbuh) on many occassions, once to the extent that he left them for over 28 days in isolation from himself.

Same goes for the multitude of hadiths that showed how some Umm Momineens angered the holy prophet (pbuh).

This discussion is going nowhere, nor am I in the business of critizing any of our sahabahs. The discussion has been sufficient to prove that the prophet's (pbuh) ahl-bait do not include the wives of the prophet (pbuh).

Now, let it go since I see you are getting excited and beginning to lean towards accussations.

It is better that we leave the discussion, where it is, in peace.

Also, for your information, there are approximately 1 billion muslims - not 1.8 billion. Some quote 1.2 billion but that may be an exageration as well.

Wa'Salam

[This message has been edited by Gandalf (edited May 13, 2002).]

87

It is better that we leave the discussion, where it is, in peace.<<

ah.. Come On Gandalf Bhai!!
Let’s have some good Sunni - Shia dust up here.

It is one of GupShup’s favourite dishes!!
My dream is to get sufficient knowledge of Islam and enter the Shia-Sunni debates under a different nick!!

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/wink.gif

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/wink.gif

88

**

** BUT YOU LIKE TO “ATTACK” YOUR BELIEFS, EVEN BY LIES, DECEPTION AND WOULD BE QUICK TO DEFEND SHIISM, EVEN IF IT REQUIRES LYING AND DECEPTION ? ** If it’s not ** Taqiyah, ** then what is it ???

How about the lies and deception used by the Shias against Mainstream Islam? You never bother to correct it, do you ???

** BEAUTIFUL POSTS ** Brother ** Ibrahim **

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/ok.gif

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/biggthumb.gif

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/ok.gif

** GANDALF HAS BEEN EXPOSED. HE REPEATEDLY AVOIDS THE QUESTIONS HE IS ASKED, BUT IS QUICK TO MISQUOTE, TWIST, LIE AND USE DECEPTION TO ATTACK MAINSTREAM ISLAM AND PROPAGATE SHIISM.

And, then he repeatedly claims he’s a Mainstream Muslim !!!

What is that supposed to mean ?? If you are convinced of the superiority of Shiism, and that Mainstream Islam is wrong, then WHY DON’T YOU IDENTIFY YOURSELF WITH SHIISM? Why do you have to repeatedly tell us you are a Mainstream Muslim ?

WHAT OTHER REASON CAN THERE BY EXCEPT TAQIYAH AND TO * DECEIVE AND MISGUIDE THE MAINSTREAM MUSLIMS * BECAUSE OF HIS INHERENT SHIA HATRED OF ISLAM ? **

I invite all the readers to see for themselves the truth about this person, Gandalf.

** Gandalf, you haven’t answered my questions yet. If you don’t, then it only proves your sickening level of Taqiyah. **

89

[quote]
Originally posted by Gandalf:
Your attempt to suggest that I am not posting the hadiths is futile.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: I have made myself CLEAR, you are talking nonsense without knowledge.

90

**

O really? ** Then WHY DON’T YOU GIVE THE REFERENCES ** even though you have been asked for it ** REPEATEDLY ? **

And, then you claim you are a Mainstream Muslim ??? If you are, then why do you have such a malicious agenda against Islam ???

**

** PLEASE QUOTE IT FOR US. ** How many times do you want us to repeat this request ???

**

** WHAT ??? You contradict yourself here. ** At one point you say, this discussion is not going anywhere, then you say your Shia agenda has been proven ???

** And just HOW has your point been proven ??? You repeatedly lie, avoid the questions you are asked, DO NOT PROVIDE REFERENCES TO YOUR CLAIMS, and when you begin to lose the argument, you call it quits and conclude it by saying your Shia agenda has been proven ??? **

Your sickening level of Taqiyah (“Holy Hypocrisy” - Which is mandated by the Shia religion, and constitutes 90% of their faith according Shia theology) is too much for any civilised person to stand.

**

** NO, FIRST YOU’VE TO ACCEPT YOU WERE LYING AND DECEIVING, OR ELSE, YOU HAVE TO PROVE YOUR CLAIMS.

And, Answer the questions raised by Ibrahim and Me.

Or else, you are practising Taqiyah, and are a Shia who hates Islam with all his intensity. **

**

** TOO JEALOUS OF THE MUSLIMS , EH ??

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/biggrin.gif

** If a ** Hindu ** said something like that, it’d have made sense.

Muslim populations are grossly under-represented by the non-Muslim media for obvious reasons. But, even the ** Western Media ** accepts that Muslims are about ** 1.3 BILLION **. But, for some reason, you just can’t digest that fact, and want to adamantly believe that Muslims are only 1 billion ???

Why is that ?? ** Because it’ll show that SHIITES are NOT EVEN 6% of ** those who call themselves ** MUSLIMS ** ???

** I’m amazed ** at the level of ** HATRED ** you’ve for ** Islam and Muslims. **

That’s one reason ** Why ** I had requested the Moderator ** NOT TO BAN “faceup” ** because, his hatred for Islam was ** obvious, since he was not as obsessed with Taqiyah ** and therefore less poisonous for Islam. But, People who practise ** Taqiyah with such obsession ** are very ** POISONOUS ** to Islam, because the unsuspecting, naiive Mainstream Muslims fall for their trick, and then they can be easily back-stabbed.

91

No, Andhra, Shias are your brothers. I come from India, and it is pretty apparent there that the ** SHIAS AND HINDUS HAVE * COMMON ENEMITY * AGAINST ISLAM AND MAINSTREAM MUSLIMS. **

92

Sure Br. Ibrahim;

If that makes you feel better about yrself.

You are the only one on this forum with knowledge, isn't that right Ibrahim ?

Either your way or the highway, is it not ?

Listen to yrself and see the clowns who hurrah to yr post.

Jaasa leader, waisa ghulam.

A Wizard arrives neither early nor late, but precisely when he chooses to

93

[quote]
Originally posted by ** saimahasnain:
** ** gandalf...but ibrahim and khoon seem to be right in saying about taqiyah... because think about it we already have enough shias on the forum and enough shia viewpoints without you first trying to understand their point of view and then expressing it to us, with your interpretations

but you are stating that you follow the hanafi madhad, so please be true to it. make your mind up**
[/quote]

[quote]
Originally posted by ** Gandalf: **
** Brother Saim;

I am not too familiar with Brother Ibrahim but as far as Khoon is concerned, I would not like to associate myself with him or his language.
**
[/quote]

** Gandalf, *, Sister Saima asked Why you call * yourself Mainstream Muslim BUT propagate Shiism ** .

And you answered it by saying ** you wouldn't associate yourself with me ** !!!!

In case you didn't get it, that's ** NOT ** the answer to it.

Your ** TAQIYAH ** is getting pretty ** TRANSPARENT ** now.

Also, it's a ** good way ** to ** avoid my questions ** that would ** expose ** your ** Taqiyah **.

If you are a man enough, then answer my questions. And, do not try to ** avoid them by some smart-a$$ arrogant remarks. **

Or else, your tendency to avoid my questions would be a proof of your taqiyah.

94

[quote]
Originally posted by Khoon-e-Shaheed:
** No, Andhra, Shias are your brothers. I come from India, and it is pretty apparent there that the ** SHIAS AND HINDUS HAVE * COMMON ENEMITY * AGAINST ISLAM AND MAINSTREAM MUSLIMS. **

**
[/quote]

Khoon;

I don't know how to talk to you, as an adult or a mis-behaving child ? You tell me.

If it pleases you to make me shia, go ahead. It doesn't change a bit of anything.

My beliefs and research have shown that ahl-bait are none other than the 5 under the cloak. If that happens to be a shia belief as well, I will not discount it for that reason only.

As the holy prophet (pbuh) said, "Judge not whether something is the truth by the beholder, but by facts".

Go cry Taqiyah Taqiyah to yr friends. A dog that likes to chase its tail will not look at something else.

May Allah (swt) Guide us to the Right Path.

A Wizard arrives neither early nor late, but precisely when he chooses to

95

[quote]
Originally posted by Gandalf:
** You are the only one on this forum with knowledge, isn't that right Ibrahim ?

Either your way or the highway, is it not ?

Listen to yrself and see the clowns who hurrah to yr post.
**
[/quote]

** PAY ATTENTION GANDALF !!!

Do not avoid the questions by your stiff-a$$ arrogant remarks. Answer them.

Or else, you are guilty of a really sickening level of TAQIYAH . **

Also, please justify all your lies and misquotes too .

96

[quote]
Originally posted by Gandalf:
** My beliefs and research have shown that ahl-bait are none other than the 5 under the cloak. If that happens to be a shia belief as well, I will not discount it for that reason only.**
[/quote]

So, ** PLEASE ANSWER ** the questions raised by Ibrahim.

Btw, your above quote is a very effective taqiyah technique. (Just make sure you dont say it to someone who has experience with the Shias !).

97

Btw, ** Gandalf ** do not forget to ** ANSWER ** my questions.

I’ve repeated this request ** MANY TIMES **. You seem to be avoiding this for some reason.

** If you are not practising Taqiyah, ** then please answer these questions of mine:

=============================================

. http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/Forum13/HTML/005027-2.html

You can say a lot of things, since you don’t have to account for them here. But atleast, ** I don’t spread lies against ** the Shias, or use lies to further the cause of the Mainstream Muslims.

You on the other, are either severely misinformed, or use incredible lies to defend Shiism and attack mainstream Islam.

** Just one example: **

Rmbr, you said that the Shias have stringent methods for Hadeeth verification, while we mainstream Muslims, are very lenient with the Hadeeth, and do not mind accepting hadeeths that go against the Qur’an ?

Well, we Mainstream Muslims, have the ** biographies of 100,000 narrators , ** do the Shias have such a collection of biographies?

For the Shias, a lot of their hadeeths spread in oral form for a long long time before being written down, and there books were meant only for the Shias. They were not open for the Sunnis to read or study them.

Many of the Shia hadeeths do not even go back to the Holy Prophet (S), instead they quote from their Imams.

And, then there’s this narrator of Shia hadeeths, (whom the Shia scholars accept ), about whom Imam Ja’far as-sadiq (the 6th Shia Imam ) said he’s a liar (can’t rmbr the exact words) - and this was narrated by another shia reporter.

Now the Shia scholars try to explain this by saying it was taqiya !!! Now, whom should you believe ???

Had a Sunni reporter been accused of lying by the one from whom he was reporting, I’m sure they wouldn’t have tried to justify it by saying it was taqiya !

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http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/Forum13/HTML/005012-2.html

Defending your Shia sister ??

When her posts turn vulgar, you seem to turn a blind eye , don’t you ??

Or you talk of Muslim unity, and are quick to attack those who speak out against the Shias, but when the Shias attack the “Wahhabis”, and post the nastiest lies about them, (but are careful NOT to define “Wahhabism”), it doesn’t bother you, does it ???

After all, by hook and crook, by lies and taqiya, Shiism has to be defended and Mainstream Islam attacked !!

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http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/Forum13/HTML/005012-2.html

Trying to avoid my questions gandalf ??

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If you really try to understand other ppl’s point of view, ** Why do you keep quiet when Mainstream Islam is attacked, or “Wahhabis” are attacked in the filthiest and nastiest manner ? **

And why do you ** resort to lying to attack Mainstream Islam and defend Shiism ??? ** (I’ve already proved that in my other post).
(Or you are severely misinformed, but that is very unlikely, since you seem to know a lot about Shiism and Mainstream Islam).

As for me, I don’t attack the Shias just because they are Shias. I did make it clear in one of my other posts, that the Yemeni Zaidi Shias are considered within the fold of Islam . Though they are deviants, but they are generally accepted within the fold of Islam. So, ** I don’t bash for no purpose. **

Now what are you going to do? ** Again avoid my questions, and make another personal comment, and get away??? **

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Please answer them if you truly are not practising Taqiyah. Why should it be a problem for you if you are not practising Taqiyah?

98

Khoon;

Stop hyperventilating. For one who was not involved in the discussion nor had an iota of knowledge to contribute, you seemed pretty fired up for nothing.

Why don’t you stop analyzing my beliefs and present some facts in favor of the discussion at hand.

And while you are at it, please let me know which hadiths were not given with references ?

Where was a lie spoken ?

Correcting 1.8 billion muslims to 1 to 1.2 billion makes me hate Islam ???

Is this yr logic - lie at all costs for Islam’s prestige ?

Is this what the qur’an teaches you ?

Looking at yr speech, it seems that Islam aside, you have not learnt common courtesy.

I have presented ample proof for my side of the agrument. These involved quranic ayats, explicit hadiths from Muslim, and grammatical change in the gender of the ayat under question.

The opposing viewpoint has avoided the Mubaila issue and has leaned strongly on footnotes.

Do you want to see hadiths that reprimand Umm Momineens Aisha and Hafsa ? Quranic ayats are present as well.

I rather avoid critizing any sahabahs but it seems that you are bent towards that.

But first, speak and behave as an adult.

[This message has been edited by Gandalf (edited May 13, 2002).]

99

No, Andhra, Shias are your brothers. I come from India, and it is pretty apparent there that the SHIAS AND HINDUS HAVE COMMON ENEMITY AGAINST ISLAM AND MAINSTREAM MUSLIMS. <<

I love Shias. Especially MOharram!!!

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Anyway I don’t understand one thing.
Why do Sunnis get worked up about Shias not accepting ‘Sahabas’, Prophet Mohammed’s companions?

They still accept Koran, Allah and Prophet Mohammed.
That should make them Muslims right?

100

why are YOU questioning if they are Muslims?

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let Shia/Sunni worry about that, you should be worrying about your so called religion

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May Allah SWT guide us all towards right and help us follow the right