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Yes, Shias have no right to curse our Sahaabas. As you said earlier, they have ** gutter tongues ** , and they are so bad-mouthed - don’t you look at their posts here ? They are so full of lies, abuses and venom - ** YUCK !!! **
** Who the hell gave the Shias the right to curse our beloved Sahaabas (R) and our Pious Mother Hadrat 'Aishah (R) ? **
[quote]
Originally posted by saimahasnain:
**
'selective liking' what are you on?
why should you say i like usman(RA) because of this and because abu bakr(RA) did this... we dont like him
if the quran says their were hypocrites around our prophet, then it certainly does not mean the sahaba, it surely means other munafiqeen and kaffir who pretended to believe.
shias have no right to judge our sahabas and also a revelation was made that hazrat aisha was pure, you shias say she is not.
how can you say this if you claim to be lovers of the prophets family dont you class her as one of his family members or not? and as everyone knows that she was the prophets favourite wife.**
[/quote]
Brother;
The shias say that every individual must be judged according to his actions. As such, there is no Islamic law that says that you must love or regard all sahabahs highly.
As such, to regard one person higher than the other (due to his righteousness) is not unusual.
Hypocrit and munafiq are the same - one who confesses to believe but does otherwise. A kafir is a kafor - not a munafiq.
As such, unless you know who of all the sahabahs (people who stayed with the prophet (pbuh) were righteous and who were munafiq, your position to regard all the sahabahs highly will be weak.
The qur'an tells our prophet (pbuh) that there were munafiqs around him that even he was not aware of. These, the shias say, can be identified by their actions - both during the prophet's (pbuh) lifetime and after.
Also, the most beloved wife of the prophet (pbuh), even by our ahl-sunnat tradition, was not Hazrat Aisha but it was Bibi Khadija.
The shias consider Aisha as the "Mother of Believers" as this is the title for all of the prophet's (pbuh) wives. But based upon her actions, they do not consider her righteous, as compared to the other wives of the prophet (pbuh).
Also, wives of the prophet (pbuh) do not constitute the ahl-bait, for verse 33:33 has to be explained grammatically as well as through the use of authentic Sahih hadiths.
Again, may be our shia brothers can explain their position better. I am trying to explain the shia belief better for my ahl-sunnat brothers/sisters.
A Wizard arrives neither early nor late, but precisely when he chooses to
Ibrahim says: salaams to all
Dear Gandalf,
You seem to be putting up an impressive front for the shia while declaring you are not a shia ( sort of leads people to think about taqiyah, if I may so say so)
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besides that, I am particularly interested in your below statements
Ibrahim says : can you kindly explain who ahl-bait constitutes in your understanding and why would his wives be excluded from it?
Thanks
Ibrahim
** Every closed eye is not sleeping and every open eye is not seeing **
Brother Ibrahim, Be careful, or else he’ll start calling you different names (nursery rhymes for the Shias !)
This is what said about me:
**
Brother Ibrahim;
I am somewhat familiar with shia beliefs since I have held discussions with them before.
I’m follow the Hanafi madhab, if you care to know. And I don’t like to be blamed with Taqihah when my aim is to present the shia point of view from what I understand of them.
Bridging the gap through such discussions will allow us to achieve unity, as instructed to us by our holy prophet (pbuh).
Ibrahim says: salaams to all
Dear Brother Gandalf,
Are you under the impression that I may be blind of shia beliefs and their ways? I hope not! . So apparently you missed my point, I said
I said the above based on various points you had made in this week, which contradicted Islamic Beliefs and touched on shia propaganda .
I am well aware of shia tactics and have dealt with shi’ites , my point being the religion given by Allah (swt) is Islam not shi’ism, as such anyone who tries to promote anything other then Islam, would be contradicting the religion of Truth as conveyed by the final Prophet (pbuh) ** and those who practice Islam are known as Muslims and not by any other labels, if indeed they believed in the Qur’an** , those who prefer to call themselves shias, ahmedias. qadianis, christians, hindus , jews, buddhist or what ever, are all welcome to do what they like but they cannot claim it was the religion given by Allah (swt) named as Islam . ** It is simple as that when it comes to understanding religion. **
Ibrahim says: It does not matter to me what you belief in or the madhab that you belong to , what mattered to me was, you were talking on behalf or an another faith that is in enmity with Islam , which has its own representative on this forum and you were contradicting the Islamic belief when you had been posting on many issues which were totally based on shia assertions which have been refuted extensively by Muslims.
But most of all I was particularly interested in this ( since you mentioned a verse of the Qur’an to back your understanding for shi’ism, let me re-quote
Ibrahim says: hence my interest was only on the above verse and your assertion, since you now assert that you practice Islam and not shi’ism, kindly explain how you came to understand that the wives of the Prophet {pbuh) are not part of his household.
I would very much like to hear from you on this , since I have had this argument with shias on this very forum on this very subject and have not received any credible reply for it.
On the other hand , you seemed to have understood this and have resorted to spreading this ill conceived notion about a man’s wives, are not part of his family on this forum. ( which anyone with common sense will disagree)
So I hope you will be kind enough to entertain me and answer my question which was
** can you kindly explain who ahl-bait constitutes in your understanding and why would his wives be excluded from it? **
Ibrahim says I am sure you meant well, but bridges cannot be built on errors or falsehoods, so one must be clear as to what to promote and what to abstain from.
Let me just say.
34: 46 ** Say: “I do admonish you on one point: that ye do stand up before Allah** --(it may be) in pairs or (it may be) singly and reflect (within yourselves): your Companion is not possessed: he is no less than a Warner to you in face of a terrible Penalty.”
47 ** Say: “No reward do I ask of you: it is (all) in your interest:** my reward is only due from Allah: and He is Witness to all things.”
48 ** Say: “Verily my Lord doth cast the (mantle of) Truth (over His servants) He that has full knowledge of (all) that is hidden.” **
49 ** Say: "The Truth has arrived and Falsehood neither creates anything new nor restores anything.**
50 ** Say: “If I am astray I only stray to the loss of my own soul: but if I receive guidance it is because of the inspiration of my Lord to me: ** it is He Who hears all things and is (ever) near.”
Ibrahim says: hence you are obliged to answer my question and remember nothing can be more truer than this ** Falsehood neither creates anything new nor restores anything ** ( meaning it cannot never unite only cause destruction.
Thus shi’ism is shi’ism and Islam will always remain as Islam.
Hope you understand my points and will do your best to answer my single question to you.
Was salaam
Ibrahim
** Your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think of you **
Brother Ibrahim;
Thank you for your message.
I am a researcher on hadiths and I try to take only what is the truth (May Allah help me in this regard), regardless of the source that it comes from - after verifying the source itself.
I got the following hadith from Muslim, which goes like this:
Book 031, Number 5923:
Yazid b. Hayyan reported: We went to him (Zaid b. Arqam) and said to him. You have found goodness (for you had the honour) to live in the company of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and offered prayer behind him, and the rest of the hadith is the same but with this variation of wording that lie said: Behold, for I am leaving amongst you two weighty things, one of which is the Book of Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, and that is the rope of Allah. He who holds it fast would be on right guidance and he who abandons it would be in error, and in this (hadith) these words are also found: We said: Who are amongst the members of the household? Aren't the wives (of the Holy Prophet) included amongst the members of his house hold? Thereupon he said: No, by Allah, a woman lives with a man (as his wife) for a certain period; he then divorces her and she goes back to her parents and to her people; the members of his household include his ownself and his kith and kin (who are related to him by blood) and for him the acceptance of Zakat is prohibited.
And Allah (swt) knows Best.
A Wizard arrives neither early nor late, but precisely when he chooses to
quote] I am a researcher on hadiths and I try to take only what is the truth (May Allah help me in this regard), regardless of the source that it comes from - after verifying the source itself.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: salaams to all
Dear Gandalf
I am most pleased to learn that you do research on your own, hence you will understand that sahih Muslim hadiths are grouped together and Book 31 is concerning merits of Ali (ra) which starts from hadith 5913 to 5924
It is obvious from your post that you have missed to verify hadith 5920 as well as the foot notes with regards to 5923 (which you have quoted and which had misled you to believe the opposite of what is true)
Let me direct you to Hadith no. 5920, which is the complete hadith whereas hadith 5923 is lacking some details as mentioned in that hadith itself. ( this is emphasized and given clarity in the foot notes reference no 2698. on that book itself)
Let me quote ……………
Sahih Muslim Hadith Hadith 5920 Narrated by Zayd ibn Arqam
Yazid ibn Hayyan reported: I went with Husayn ibn Sabrah and Umar ibn Muslim to Zayd ibn Arqam and, as we sat by his side, Husayn said to him: Zayd, you have been able to acquire great virtue him that you saw Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him), listened to his conversation, fought by his side in (different) battles and offered prayer behind him. Zayd, you have in fact earned a great virtue. Zayd, narrate to us what you heard from Allah`s Messenger (peace be upon him). ** He said: I have grown old; I have almost reached the end of my life-span and I have forgotten some of the things which I remembered in connection with Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him). So accept whatever I narrate to you, and those which I do not narrate, do not compel me to narrate them.** He then said: One day Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) stood up to deliver a sermon at a watering-place known as Khumm, situated between Mecca and Medina. He praised Allah, extolled Him, delivered the sermon, exhorted (us) and said: Now to our purpose, O people: I am a human being. Perhaps I am about to receive a messenger (the angel of death) from my Lord, and I, in response to Allah's call, (shall bid good-bye to you). But I am leaving among you two weighty things: the one being the Book of Allah in which there is right guidance and light, so hold fast to the Book of Allah and adhere to it. He exhorted (us) (to hold fast) to the Book of Allah, and then said: The second are the members of my household; I remind you (of your duties) to the members of my family. He (Husayn) said to Zayd: Who are the members of his household? ** Aren't his wives the members of his family? Thereupon he said: His wives are the members of his family (but here) the members of his family are those for whom acceptance of Zakat is forbidden.** And he said: Who are they? Thereupon he said: Ali and the offspring of Ali, Aqil and the offspring of Aqil, the offspring of Ja'far and the offspring of Abbas. Husayn said: ** These are those for whom the acceptance of Zakat is forbidden. Zayd said: Yes.**
Ibrahim says: now let me quote what the footnote conveys:-
In hadith 5920 ** the wives of the holy Prophet (may peace be upon him) are INCLUDED** amongst the members of the Prophets household ** and verse 33 of Sura al-ahzab makes a pointed reference to them :
33:33 And stay quietly in your houses and make not a dazzling display like that of the former Times of Ignorance; and establish regular Prayer and give regular Charity; and obey Allah and His Apostle. And Allah only wishes to remove all abomination from you ye Members of the Family and to make you pure and spotless**
In hadith 5923 , mention is made of only those ahl –bait who are related to Allah’s messenger (may peace be upon him) very closely by blood. They have been prohibited to accept Zakat ( nawawi Vol II . pp 279, 280)
Ibrahim says: hence I am sorry to advise you that your research has been incomplete and you have failed to understand Surah 33:33 according to context which conveys beyond doubts as to who are the ahl-bait of the prophet.
[quote]
Book 031, Number 5923:
Yazid b. Hayyan reported: We went to him (Zaid b. Arqam) and said to him. You have found goodness (for you had the honour) to live in the company of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and offered prayer behind him, and the rest of the hadith is the same but with this variation of wording that lie said: Behold, for I am leaving amongst you two weighty things, one of which is the Book of Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, and that is the rope of Allah. He who holds it fast would be on right guidance and he who abandons it would be in error, and in this (hadith) these words are also found: We said: Who are amongst the members of the household? Aren't the wives (of the Holy Prophet) included amongst the members of his house hold? Thereupon he said: No, by Allah, a woman lives with a man (as his wife) for a certain period; he then divorces her and she goes back to her parents and to her people; the members of his household include his ownself and his kith and kin (who are related to him by blood) and for him the acceptance of Zakat is prohibited.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: If there is any doubt in you that the Qur’an verse 33:33 could have been misinterpreted in anyway, you can make sure it included the wife by reading
11: 71 ** And his wife ** was standing (there) and she laughed: but We gave her glad tidings of Isaac and after him of Jacob.
72 She said: "Alas for me! Shall I bear a child seeing I am an old woman and my husband here is an old man? That would indeed be a wonderful thing!"
73 They said: "Dost thou wonder at Allah's decree? The grace of Allah and His blessings on you ** O ye people of the house! ** [ahlal bait(i)] for He is indeed worthy of all praise full of all glory!"
74 When fear had passed from (the mind of) ** Abraham ** and the glad tidings had reached him he began to plead with Us for Lut's people.
Ibrahim says The ahlal bait of Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) included his wife and the angels particularly referred to the wife of the prophet as the ahlal bait in the above narration, which is also the same in verse 33:33
Thus I hope you will be more careful in not getting confused in your research or omitting content which have been tactfully left out by the shias in trying to propagate their doigma
Allah (swt) knows best
Was salaam
Ibrahim
** Be humble to TRUTH and follow it, even if you hear it from a child **
Brother Ibrahim;
Thank you for yr post.
Forgive me if I do not agree with your explanation. I have read the previous hadiths as well but as you can see, hadith 5923 is very explicit - Are the wives part of the prophet's (pbuh) family - Answer: No.
I always take the Foot Notes with a grain of salt.
Nobody will dispute that the wives, including Umm Momineen Aisha, Salma, Khadija, and other righteous wives of the prophet (pbuh) ARE HIS FAMILY. However, the family or ahl-bait we are referring to is the ahl-bait who are being referred to in Verse 33:33. As such, let's stick to this verse.
First the portion of the quranic verse we are discussing:
[Shakir 33:33] Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House! and to purify you a (thorough) purifying.
Now, please refer to Muslim under:
Chapter 9: THEE MERITS OF THE FAMILY OF THE PROPHET (MAY PEACE BE UPON HIM)
Book 031, Number 5955:
'A'isha reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) went out one norning wearing a striped cloak of the black camel's hair that there came Hasan b. 'Ali. He wrapped hitn under it, then came Husain and he wrapped him under it along with the other one (Hasan). Then came Fatima and he took her under it, then came 'Ali and he also took him under it and then said: Allah only desires to take away any uncleanliness from you, O people of the household, and purify you (thorough purifying)
Please compare the words in bold and you will see that they are identical.
At the time when this verse were revealed, none of the prophet's (pbuh) wives were present under the cloak. Everyone under the cloak are the ahl-bait referred to in verse 33:33. The purified ahl-bait are the members that our holy prophet (pbuh) wrapped under the cloak, thereby making it clear who Verse 33:33 was referring to.
Umm Momineen Aisha is testifying to this event.
Allah (swt) Knows Best.
A Wizard arrives neither early nor late, but precisely when he chooses to
[This message has been edited by Gandalf (edited May 08, 2002).]
I am young, and i'm not well versed in the techincalities of Islam, the Qur'an, or the multitude interpretations of the sayings of the Prophets...a byproduct of growing up in America. Inshallah in the future I would like to attain such knowledge. Now to the point. This forum is titled Shias and Sunnis. I believe that it is a misnomer for this forum as well as all the forums like it in the past. Why? The Palestinian struggle in Israel has been going on for 50 years, yet the holier than thou Sunnis don't seem to have lifted a finger to aid our brothers. Iran, the only Shia country in the world, has done nothing but provide support of every kind to my mostly Sunni Ppalestinian brothers. The fact that they are Shia is besides the point. They have the right idea, wherever Islam is threatened, they have to answer the dictate of Allah to defend it. I don't feel that they've done this because they're Shia, but because they are Irani, and Irani's don't have the major ethnic and cultural flaw that Pakistani's possess. I don't know what to call it but Pakistani's always seem to be finding some reason shoot each other. It is our curse. This forum is a playground for old angry pakistanis to get on their high horses or whatever it is they ride in pakistan, and shoot their stubborn mouths off. Please just SHUT THE HELL UP. you people are better at nagging and bitching than you are at doing any good. By being the way you are, you're worthless to Islam because you have served only to hamper its progress and not helped to enrich it. Why do you think 14 million Jews can control the world? A Hessidic Jew has a grudging acceptance for his Unorthodox brethren. He will argue with them, but he would never say that the Unorthodox is NOT a Jew. Those people have more brains than you. They know that it if someone calls themselves a Jew then whether or not he is one is out of their jurisdiction. It is for God to decide. They DROP the issue, you people like to kick it around and waste ALOT of time and energy doing nothing. I have only just turned 20. Figure I (inshallah) live to be 70. If within 50 years I could see even this basic form of unity where I can go to a real mosque in pakistan, and I dont have to fear being blown to bits, then I will die a happy man. A mosque is a place of god, regardless of sect. No god-fearing muslim, shia, sunni, or otherwise, could even think to desecrate such a place. What am I saying? I think anyone who is radical enough to kill another muslim is so high up on themselves and being holy that they've lost sight of what they are muslims for in the first place. They are muslims for themselves, not for Allah. Look at the Taliban, they give dictates to kill 5 shia per mission, clear your head and ask yourself, would Allah ask such a thing? They kill their own if they so much as breathe wrong. These sorts of people are what I equate with the people who spend way too much time in forums like this one around the world listening to themselves talk. I am new to GupShup, i've come here for various reasons. One of the reasons is to fill the religious hole that, no matter how hard my parents try, cannot be completeley mended due to the society within which I live. I had high hopes of even just a little bit of enlightenment when i clicked on "Religion" but I was sorely dissapointed. I have better things to do than breathe your air people, you know who you are, take it somewhere else. Like on a street where you might kill each other off. That way Islam will begin to move forward and we can regain that which we have lost. dignity and respect first, for islam, and for others. evrything else second.
My message goes to those radical Shias who don't seem to understand that when the time comes, our closest allies will be the very people you are alienating. This plea also goes to those radical Sunni's who don't understand...Shia's are here to stay, DEAL with it.
[quote]
Originally posted by Gandalf: Forgive me if I do not agree with your explanation.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: salaams to all
Dear Gandalf
Firstly you do disagree with what I have said, so there is no “if” in your stance, even then I am not the one to forgive you since it is Allah (swt) alone who can forgive you as what you have concluded is against what the Qur’an has conveyed on that matter, which is being rejected by you as per your perception because you have decided to stick to one hadith while negating another.
Most of all you have not done me no wrong and I for sure had not done you any wrong, so Allah (swt) will judge as to what will be your state of affairs or guide you to come to a better understanding Insha Allah, that is His will and beyond my control. All I can do is advice you to THINK carefully before you pass judgment on others. In this case you have desired to exclude those that Allah (swt) had included, as per my understanding which I believe is what more then 1 billion Muslims across the Globe, had understood for 1423 years.
[quote]
I have read the previous hadiths as well but as you can see, hadith 5923 is very explicit - Are the wives part of the prophet's (pbuh) family - Answer: No.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: I do not know how you understood this as ** the same narrator is saying YES the wives are included , in hadith 5920,** I guess, you have still not realized that Prophets and their immediate families are not allowed to collect zakat for themselves hence the reference in hadith 5923 is with that regards , which is explicitly clarified in hadith 5920. I guess you have desired to reject 5920 and accept 5923 based on your desire, so be it!
[quote]
I always take the Foot Notes with a grain of salt.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: You need to tell that to Muslim since he would have known best as to why he needed to include them in his compilations. I suppose he wanted people not to get confused but since you had rejected it , I cannot blame him for your confusion.
[quote]
Nobody will dispute that the wives, including Umm Momineen Aisha, Salma, Khadija, and other righteous wives of the prophet (pbuh) ARE HIS FAMILY. However, the family or ahl-bait we are referring to is the ahl-bait who are being referred to in Verse 33:33. As such, let's stick to this verse.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: And by what logic were you able to determine this? When verse 33:33 as stated by you has been spliced into and that passage does not start at verse 33:33 but from verse 33:28 ( which is with regards to the ahl bait and as to how they are to behave in society .
Let me quote Maududi in his Sura Introductions for surah 33, he writes
The discourse contained in verses. 28-35 consists of two parts. In the first part, Allah has given a notice to the wives of the Holy Prophet, who were being impatient of the straitened circumstances, to the effect:"Choose between the world and its adornments, and Allah, His Prophet and the Hereafter. If you seek the former, you should say so openly: you will not be kept back in hardship even for a day, but will be sent off gracefully. And if you seek the latter, you should cooperate with Allah and His messenger and bear patiently."** In the second part, initial steps were taken towards the social reforms whose need was being felt by the minds moulded in the Islamic pattern themselves. In this regard, reform was started from the house of the Holy Prophet himself and his wives were commanded to avoid behaving and conducting themselves in the ways of the pre Islamic days of ignorance, to remain in their houses with dignity, and to exercise great caution in their conversation with the other men. This was the beginning of the Commandments of Purdah.**
Ibrahim says: Kindly read this passage according to context
33: 28 O Prophet! ** say to thy Consorts: ** "If it be that ye desire the life of this world and its glitter then come! I will provide for your enjoyment and set you free in a handsome manner."
29 But if ye seek Allah and His Apostle and the Home of the Hereafter verily Allah has prepared for the well-doers amongst you a great reward.
30 ** O Consorts of the Prophet!** if any of you were guilty of evident unseemly conduct the Punishment would be doubled to her and that is easy for Allah.
31 But any of you that is devout in the service of Allah and His Apostle and works righteousness to her shall We grant her reward twice: and We have prepared for her a generous Sustenance.
32 ** O Consorts of the Prophet! ** ye are not like any of the (other) women: if ye do fear (Allah) be not too complaisant of speech lest one in whose heart is a disease should be moved with desire: but speak ye a speech (that is) just.
33 ** And stay quietly in your houses ** and make not a dazzling display like that of the former Times of Ignorance; and establish regular Prayer and give regular Charity; and obey Allah and His Apostle. And Allah only wishes to remove all abomination from you ye Members of the Family and to make you pure and spotless.
34 And recite what is rehearsed to you** in your homes ** of the Signs of Allah and His wisdom: for Allah understands the finest mysteries and is well-acquainted (with them).
[quote]
First the portion of the quranic verse we are discussing:
[Shakir 33:33] Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House! and to purify you a (thorough) purifying.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: this is very wrong you cannot just split a verse and give it a different meaning or use it to suit your notion.
Now try reading the verse from verse 28 or at lest read the FULL verse 33, not the bottom portion as you have spliced above as shias are fond of doing .
[quote]
Now, please refer to Muslim under: Chapter 9: THEE MERITS OF THE FAMILY OF THE PROPHET (MAY PEACE BE UPON HIM)
Book 031, Number 5955:
'A'isha reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) went out one norning wearing a striped cloak of the black camel's hair that there came Hasan b. 'Ali. He wrapped hitn under it, then came Husain and he wrapped him under it along with the other one (Hasan). Then came Fatima and he took her under it, then came 'Ali and he also took him under it and then said: Allah only desires to take away any uncleanliness from you, O people of the household, and purify you (thorough purifying)
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: Dear Gandalf, In other words , the apostle failed to include all his wives under the clock as such they are not the ahl bait would be what you have understood from this hadith. One may also wonder who was the Prophet (pbuh) conveying this to, since only Aisha (ra) ( the narrator had witnessed it) . Surely he must have had a purpose and since it is recorded in the hadiths the purpose has been achieved with regards to verse 33:33 in its complete form which is with regards to his wives only and the others left out in that verse.
Here again it is obvious you have chosen to reject the foot notes for the above hadith.
Which says:
Reference NO: 2714….. This hadith along with the above –mentioned verse clarifies a point over which there has been a good deal of discussion. The Shiite on the basis of this hadith, assert that the ahl bait of the Holy Prophet (Pbuh) are only four noble souls: Imam Husain, Imam Hasan, Fatima and Ali (Allah be pleased with all of them). But the context in which this verse 33:33 has been revealed clearly shows that the ahl bait implies the wives of the holy prophet (pbuh) as it has been said at the opening of this verse: ** And stay quietly in your houses ** and make not a dazzling display like that of the former Times of Ignorance; On different occasions where the word ahl bait has been used it signifies wife as is the case of Ibrahim’s wife in 11:73 and Imran’s wife in 3:33-35. or Moses mother in 28:12. ** Keeping into consideration both of these points the correct view is** that the wives of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) , his children, his daughters and sons-in-laws and their children all come under ahl bait. ** Both the groups err when they exclude one at the cost of another, i.e those who exclude wives and include Fatima, Ali , Hasan and Husain (Allah be pleased with them) in ahl bait and those who exclude these four noble souls the mention of which has been made in this hadith and include the Prophets wives only amongst the ahl bait.**
[quote]
Please compare the words in bold and you will see that they are identical.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: You mean the shia translator ( sakhir) made it identical or you suppose the other translators were in error for using other words of their choice which conveys the same
Kindly check this verse from three translators and kindly explain why has the verse that you quote is missing in content?
[33:33]
YUSUFALI:
And stay quietly in your houses, and make not a dazzling display, like that of the former Times of Ignorance; and establish regular Prayer, and give regular Charity; and obey Allah and His Messenger. And Allah only wishes to remove all abomination from you, ye members of the Family, and to make you pure and spotless.
PICKTHAL:
And stay in your houses. Bedizen not yourselves with the bedizenment of the Time of Ignorance. Be regular in prayer, and pay the poor-due, and obey Allah and His messenger. Allah's wish is but to remove uncleanness far from you, O Folk of the Household, and cleanse you with a thorough cleansing.
SHAKIR:
And stay in your houses and do not display your finery like the displaying of the ignorance of yore; and keep up prayer, and pay the poor-rate, and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House! and to purify you a (thorough) purifying.
[quote]
At the time when this verse were revealed, none of the prophet's (pbuh) wives were present under the cloak. Everyone under the cloak are the ahl-bait referred to in verse 33:33. The purified ahl-bait are the members that our holy prophet (pbuh) wrapped under the cloak, thereby making it clear who Verse 33:33 was referring to.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: Obviously you have not realized that the Prophet (pbuh) did not do this in front of an audience to demonstrate who is ahl bait and who is not. Obviously this event must have taken place only in the presence of Aisha (ra) . which means what ever the Prophet (pbuh) intended was for Aisha (ra) to acknowledge .
One should try and understand when Allah (swt) revealed ** verse 33:28 to 34, which only talked about the wives of the prophet {pbuh), the prophet (pbuh) may have wanted the wives to know, it also included Fatima, Ali and his grand sons , which IMHO the prophet achieved by talking them under his arms such that later generations will not think his household is only his immediate family. Which is what this hadith reveals but those who have passed judgment on who is his household and who is not have obviously desired otherwise, as is your case.
Dear Brother I have already given you CLEAR evidence from the Qur’an which is the primary source and nothing can negate what is being mentioned in it.
In the Qur’an the ahl bait are
1) Ibrahim’s wife in 11:73 and
2) Imran’s wife in 3:33-35.
3) Moses mother in 28:12.
4) Prophet’s wives in 33:28-34
In addition to this when Allah (swt) conveyed thus
33: 6 The Prophet is closer to the Believers than their own selves ** and his wives are their mothers.** Blood-relations among each other have closer personal ties in the Decree of Allah than (the Brotherhood of) Believers and Muhajirs: nevertheless do ye what is just to your closest friends: such is the writing in the Decree (of Allah)
33;36 ** It is not fitting for a Believer man or woman when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Apostle to have any option about their decision:** if anyone disobeys Allah and His Apostle he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path.
33: 53 ** O ye who Believe!** enter not the Prophet's houses until leave is given you for a meal (and then) not (so early as) to wait for its preparation: but when ye are invited enter; and when ye have taken your meal disperse without seeking familiar talk. Such (behavior) annoys the Prophet: He is ashamed to dismiss you but Allah is not ashamed (to tell you) the truth. And when ye ask (his ladies) for anything ye want ask them from before a screen: that makes for greater purity for your hearts and for theirs. Nor is it right for you that ye should annoy Allah's Apostle ** or that ye should marry his widows after him at any time. Truly such a thing is in Allah's sight an enormity.**
Ibrahim says: should help you and shi ites understand that the wives of the Prophet were not just any ordinary women who had the right to marry after the Husband has seized to exist but were the ahl bait whom no other man had the right to marry and they are to be considered the mother of believers.
I will have nothing more to add, since it would be futile and your research as you claim has ended so it seems .
But as you can see, my points are not just mine but accepted by Muslims for 1423 years.
Allah (swt) knows best
Was salaam
Ibrahim
** we are not permitted to choose the frame of our destiny. But what we put into it is ours **
** Wonderful Job Ibrahim **
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May Allah reward you greatly for it. Aameen.
** Gandalf’s posts stink like TAQIYAH. ** Isn’t it ?
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** paki_albino ** - Try being a little more truthful next time. ** Your facts are contrary to common knowledge. ** Just try harder to be little more truthful next time. ** (Hint: be easy with the taqiyah). **
Ibrahim;
Your posts "assume" alot.
Let's go over it one more time. Hadith 5920 says:
so hold fast to the Book of Allah and adhere to it. He exhorted (us) (to hold fast) to the Book of Allah, and then said: The second are the members of my household;I remind you (of your duties) to the members of my family. He (Husayn) said to Zayd: Who are the members of his household? Aren't his wives the members of his family? Thereupon he said: His wives are the members of his family (but here) the members of his family are those for whom acceptance of Zakat is forbidden.
The hadith tells us CLEARLY that the ahl-bait that the prophet (pbuh) is equating with the qur'an - i.e of equal purity / importance -does NOT include the wives of the prophet (pbuh).
As I said before, it is true that the wives are part of the prophet's (pbuh) family. However, the two things of guidance - qur'an and the ahl-bait - does not include them.
This is clear from Hadith 5920.
Hadith 5923 (see below) goes on further to tell us that ahl-bait does not include the wives, presumably to tell us that the ahl-bait that the holy prophet (pbuh) talked about in Hadith 5920 does not include the wives.
Hadith 5923 - Aren't the wives (of the Holy Prophet) included amongst the members of his house hold? Thereupon he said: No, by Allah, a woman lives with a man (as his wife) for a certain period; he then divorces her and she goes back to her parents and to her people; the members of his household include his ownself and his kith and kin (who are related to him by blood) and for him the acceptance of Zakat is prohibited.
I think that we should not get our emotions mixed into such topics. Umm Momineen Aisha tells us clearly that when the 5 under the cloak were present, Allah (swt) revealed the verse of purification.
As such, regardless of what it says before verse 33:33, the Verse "Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House! and to purify you a (thorough) purifying"
DOES NOT include the wives.
If you do not agree with this, then let it be.
Allah (swt) Knows Best.
A Wizard arrives neither early nor late, but precisely when he chooses to
[This message has been edited by Gandalf (edited May 10, 2002).]
Gandalf - I’m follow the Hanafi madhab, if you care to know. And I don’t like to be blamed with Taqihah when my aim is to present the shia point of view from what I understand of them.
ok gandalf, if this your explanation i could accept it! but ibrahim and khoon seem to be right in saying about taqiyah… because think about it we already have enough shias on the forum and enough shia viewpoints without you first trying to understand their point of view and then expressing it to us, with your interpretations
if you were still wondering which sect to follow that would be ok, but you are stating that you follow the hanafi madhad, so please be true to it. :madhosh: make your mind up
Brother Saim;
I am not too familiar with Brother Ibrahim but as far as Khoon is concerned, I would not like to associate myself with him or his language.
Topics like Taqihah are usually blown out of proportions by us against the shias for if you study the qur'an and our sahih books, you will see that what you call Taqiyah is acceptable in Islam when your life is under threat. You can check out the thread Taquiah III where I have posted a hadith from Muslim regarding this. He has devoted a full section for this.
I am Hanafi and I try to find out the truth, whether they be from shia or sunni sources. The only ultimate truth is the qur'an.
But I do not like to defend my beliefs. I will however, give my opinion on a topic, if I have any.
I have felt that there is alot of mis-givings against our shia brothers. I hope my efforts can lead us to better acquaint ourselves with the various schools of thought.
Allah Knows Best.
A Wizard arrives neither early nor late, but precisely when he chooses to
[quote]
Originally posted by Gandalf:
[quote]
Ibrahim; Your posts "assume" alot.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: salaams to all
Dear Gandalf
I give you evidence from the Qur’an and you make such claims that I have assumed, who is the ahl bait! Surely you know that NO hadith can contradict the Qur’an? and yet you say I assume ?
I hope you will THINK carefully before you write.
[quote} Let's go over it one more time. Hadith 5920 says:
so hold fast to the Book of Allah and adhere to it. He exhorted (us) (to hold fast) to the Book of Allah, and then said: The second are the members of my household;I remind you (of your duties) to the members of my family. He (Husayn) said to Zayd: Who are the members of his household? Aren't his wives the members of his family? Thereupon he said: His wives are the members of his family (but here) the members of his family are those for whom acceptance of Zakat is forbidden.
The hadith tells us CLEARLY that the ahl-bait that the prophet (pbuh) is equating with the qur'an - i.e of equal purity / importance -does NOT include the wives of the prophet (pbuh). This is clear from Hadith 5920. [/quote]
Ibrahim says NO! NEVER SPLIT A HADITH OR QUR’AN!!! apparently you seem to be focusing on your agenda (what ever it may be) whilst not understanding who is saying what? Also you have not realized that a sermon by the Prophet cannot possibly be, just two sentences! hence many other things have not been recollected by the narrator and these hadiths are focusing on one group that is the relatives of the Prophet (ahl bait) and not all of them.
Now let me re quote the complete hadith again for your benefit
Sahih Muslim Hadith Hadith 5920 Narrated by Zayd ibn Arqam
Yazid ibn Hayyan reported: I went with Husayn ibn Sabrah and Umar ibn Muslim to Zayd ibn Arqam and, as we sat by his side, Husayn said to him:
Zayd, you have been able to acquire great virtue him that you saw Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him), listened to his conversation, fought by his side in (different) battles and offered prayer behind him.
Zayd, you have in fact earned a great virtue. Zayd, narrate to us what you heard from Allah`s Messenger (peace be upon him). ** He said: I have grown old; I have almost reached the end of my life-span and I have forgotten some of the things which I remembered in connection with Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him). So accept whatever I narrate to you, and those which I do not narrate, do not compel me to narrate them.**
He then said: One day Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) stood up to deliver a sermon at a watering-place known as Khumm, situated between Mecca and Medina. He praised Allah, extolled Him, delivered the sermon, exhorted (us) and said: Now to our purpose, O people: I am a human being. Perhaps I am about to receive a messenger (the angel of death) from my Lord, and I, in response to Allah's call, (shall bid good-bye to you).
But I am leaving among you two weighty things: the one being the Book of Allah in which there is right guidance and light, so hold fast to the Book of Allah and adhere to it. He exhorted (us) (to hold fast) to the Book of Allah, and then said:
The second are the members of my household; ** I remind you (of your duties) to the members of my family.**
** He (Husayn) said to Zayd: Who are the members of his household? Aren't his wives the members of his family? Thereupon he said: His wives are the members of his family (but here) the members of his family are those for whom acceptance of Zakat is forbidden.**
And he said: Who are they? Thereupon he said: Ali and the offspring of Ali, Aqil and the offspring of Aqil, the offspring of Ja'far and the offspring of Abbas. Husayn said: ** These are those for whom the acceptance of Zakat is forbidden. Zayd said: Yes.**
Ibrahim says : First, lets examine this carefully…………..
1) 3 people visit Zayd ibn Arqam to know more about the Prophet (pbuh)
2) Zayd ibn Arqam advises them, not to ask too much as he is old and capable of forgetting things.
3) Then Zayd ibn Arqam narrates a part of a sermon to them
4) He, Zayd ibn Arqam says he heard the prophet (pbuh) say he may soon leave them and have left behind two things which will guide Muslims aright
5) No 1:- is the Qur’an
No 2 :- is his family
6) The prophet emphasizes on the duties towards his family which would be natural since, when he leaves them behind, naturally Muslims are duty bound to take care of his family and also because his wives cannot remarry but depend on the Muslim community for their upkeep. In this circumstances, such up keep can only be due to the wives and not to his blood relations as they are exempt from receiving zakat.
7) Now this hadith suddenly jumps to the question who is the family as asked by Husayn ibn Sabrah to Zayd ibn Arqam and from here on it is a personal exchange between those people.. I assume this is due to the fact that the Prophet directed Muslims to do their duty to his family.
8) ** Zayd ibn Arqam confirms that the family included the wives as well as the blood relations of the Prophet. Collectively known as the ahl bait. **
9) then the discussions is focused on the difference between the wives and the blood relations concerning zakat acceptance.
Ibrahim says: Hence the above hadith, has a few words as conveyed by the Prophet and other exchanges between the narrator and the seekers.
Now, look at point no 6. again carefully which is based on these words
The second are the members of my household; ** I remind you (of your duties) to the members of my family.**
Ibrahim says The Prophet did not say who are the members of his family nor the duties towards them since all will well know who they are.
This is what the seekers wanted to clarify with Zayd ibn Arqam, after hearing what Zayd ibn Arqam had conveyed with regards to parts of the sermon
** Aren't his wives the members of his family? ** is a question being put forward by one of the seekers.
Here zayb ibn Arqam clarifies that
1) Amongst the ahl bailt there are those that can accept zakat, which are the Prophets wives, and those that are forbidden from it , as such the Muslims in keeping their duty towards them in the absence of the Prophet had distinctions to make between the ahl bait.
Ibrahim says. So Gandalf, Now try to think like an old man and also wonder why there is a sudden break and the discussion has changed to who can accept zakat and who is forbidden from it?
[quote]
As I said before, it is true that the wives are part of the prophet's (pbuh) family. However, the two things of guidance - qur'an and the ahl-bait - does not include them.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: IMHO that would be a great error on your part, the Qur’an is the guide for all times, the ahl bait is not the only guide as they were all Muslims just like others that the Prophet (pbuh) had loved and guided for 23 years. The ahl bait will pass away just like the Prophet (pbuh) in time, hence ahl bait are not the guides but the sunnah of the Prophet is the guide that will be shown by all the Muslims including the ahl bait.
The reason as to why the ahl bait is being mentioned here is that these people (the wives) cannot be allowed to become destitute and the Muslim community had an obligation to cherish them in his absence. Every human being will have this concern when his/ her life is nearing completion. The wives in particular cannot remarry and their survival will now solely depend on the Muslims, which would have been a burden for all beings immaterial of him being the Prophet and the assurance of Allah (swt) to provide sustenance for all.
Your problem seems to be that you had conceived that the Prophet meant following the ahl bait after him till kingdom come, which is not the case. For the Qur’an is clearly stressed as the guide for Muslims by him. The ahl bait, as well as the companions would be the obvious guides of what is best after the Prophet (pbuh) in preserveing the sunnah, until it gets compiled into book form.
You may also want to note both hadiths talk about the Book of Allah (swt) , yet this book was not available for all until it was compiled in that form .
Prophet hood ended after Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and Allah (swt) ensured none of his male children survived in order to put a stop to this way of thinking.
[quote]
Hadith 5923 (see below) goes on further to tell us that ahl-bait does not include the wives, presumably to tell us that the ahl-bait that the holy prophet (pbuh) talked about in Hadith 5920 does not include the wives.
Hadith 5923 - Aren't the wives (of the Holy Prophet) included amongst the members of his house hold? Thereupon he said: No, by Allah, a woman lives with a man (as his wife) for a certain period; he then divorces her and she goes back to her parents and to her people; the members of his household include his ownself and his kith and kin (who are related to him by blood) and for him the acceptance of Zakat is prohibited.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says let me re-quote hadith 5923 with its foot notes as appearing in Muslim in a complete form.
Hadith 5923:
Yazid b. Hayyan reported: We went to him (Zaid b. Arqam) and said to him. You have found goodness (for you had the honour) to live in the company of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and offered prayer behind him,
** and the rest of the hadith is the same but with this variation of wording **
that he said: Behold, for I am leaving amongst you two weighty things, one of which is the Book of Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, and that is the rope of Allah. He who holds it fast would be on right guidance and he who abandons it would be in error,
** and in this (hadith) these words are also found:**
We said: Who are amongst the members of the household? Aren't the wives (of the Holy Prophet) included amongst the members of his house hold?
Thereupon he said: No, by Allah, a woman lives with a man (as his wife) for a certain period; he then divorces her and she goes back to her parents and to her people; the members of his household include his ownself and his kith and kin (who are related to him by blood) and for him the acceptance of Zakat is prohibited.
Foot notes for hadith 5923:
In hadith 5920 ** the wives of the holy Prophet (may peace be upon him) are INCLUDED** amongst the members of the Prophets household ** and verse 33 of Sura al-ahzab makes a pointed reference to them : 33:33 And stay quietly in your houses and make not a dazzling display like that of the former Times of Ignorance; and establish regular Prayer and give regular Charity; and obey Allah and His Apostle. And Allah only wishes to remove all abomination from you ye Members of the Family and to make you pure and spotless**
In hadith 5923 , mention is made of only those ahl –bait who are related to Allah’s messenger (may peace be upon him) very closely by blood. They have been prohibited to accept Zakat ( nawawi Vol II . pp 279, 280)
Ibrahim says: NOW TAKE NOTICE THAT
Hadith 5920 and 5923 has been reported by the same person Yazid ibn Hayyan
NOW COMPARE THEM and you will note
That Yazid is not reporting them in full form ( only Allah (swt) knows why). But what he said in Hadith 5920 is lacking in details in 5923 and vice versa. By which one may claim they are rather confusing as both have the same narrator and same reporter.
In any case
1) who are the people went to Zaid is missing in 5923 but is mentioned in 5920
2) what Zaid said the beginning is missing in 5923 but mentioned in 5920
3) NOTE THE SECOND WEIGHTY THING IS NOT MENTIONED in 5923 but mentioned in 5920
4) Here again the narration is cut short and the discussion about who is the ahl bait seems to have overtaken the narration even though nothing about them was mentioned in this hadith.
5) Again this hadith ends on the discussion as to who can received zakat and who is forbidden.
Ibrahim says: all this has No consequence when who is the ahl bait and why they need to be purified in their behavior is being stressed in Verse 33:28 to 34 .
Thus I am sorry to tell you, you are misleading yourself by not evaluating the hadiths carefully.
[quote]
I think that we should not get our emotions mixed into such topics. Umm Momineen Aisha tells us clearly that when the 5 under the cloak were present, Allah (swt) revealed the verse of purification.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says what? When did such a hadith appear in the hadith books?
Most likely you have confused yourself based on the hadith Number 5955:
'A'isha reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) went out one norning wearing a striped cloak of the black camel's hair that there came Hasan b. 'Ali. He wrapped hitn under it, then came Husain and he wrapped him under it along with the other one (Hasan). Then came Fatima and he took her under it, then came 'Ali and ** he also took him under it and then said: Allah only desires to take away any uncleanliness from you, O people of the household, and purify you (thorough purifying) (33:33) 2714
Foot notes for Hadith 5955 Reference NO: 2714…..
This hadith along with the above –mentioned verse clarifies a point over which there has been a good deal of discussion. The Shiite on the basis of this hadith, assert that the ahl bait of the Holy Prophet (Pbuh) are only four noble souls: Imam Husain, Imam Hasan, Fatima and Ali (Allah be pleased with all of them). But the context in which this verse 33:33 has been revealed clearly shows that the ahl bait implies the wives of the holy prophet (pbuh) as it has been said at the opening of this verse: ** And stay quietly in your houses ** and make not a dazzling display like that of the former Times of Ignorance; On different occasions where the word ahl bait has been used it signifies wife as is the case of
Ibrahim’s wife in 11:73 and Imran’s wife in 3:33-35. or Moses mother in 28:12. ** Keeping into consideration both of these points the correct view is** that the wives of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) , his children, his daughters and sons-in-laws and their children all come under ahl bait. ** Both the groups err when they exclude one at the cost of another, i.e those who exclude wives and include Fatima, Ali , Hasan and Husain (Allah be pleased with them) in ahl bait and those who exclude these four noble souls the mention of which has been made in this hadith and include the Prophets wives only amongst the ahl bait.**
Ibrahim says: Dear Gandalf, Verse 33;33 was not revealed at this moment but parts of it was used to convey a message to one of the Wife of the Prophet (pbuh) in this hadith who ensured it reached us, such that we can be sure ahl bait included the relatives of the Prophet (pbuh) not just the wives.
The meaning given in the above hadith is , The Qur’an has revealed who are the ahl bait in 33:28 to 34, which was specifically applying to the women folk only who were told to stay in their houses and practice and preach Islam such that they will set an example for all.
By the Prophet (pbuh) demonstrating this, that is taking his daughter, son-in-law and grandsons under his arms and claiming they too are the ahl bait and they too need to be pure , the prophet established that all of them were his cherished household . here again this did not exclude any of the other daughters or son-in-laws of the Prophet (pbuh) , which he did not include in this hadith.
[quote]
As such, regardless of what it says before verse 33:33, the Verse "Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House! and to purify you a (thorough) purifying" DOES NOT include the wives.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: when verse 33:33 will begin as you have written above it may be so unfortunately for you and shi ites, verse 33:33 of the Qur’an reads thus
33: 33 ** And stay quietly in your houses and make not a dazzling display like that of the former Times of Ignorance; and establish regular Prayer and give regular Charity; and obey Allah and His Apostle. And Allah only wishes to remove all abomination from you ye Members of the Family and to make you pure and spotless**
Ibrahim says : so it is a grave sin to split the Qur’an according to ones whims and fancies
Allah (swt) warns thus , those who have split it up ( Qur’an) to suit their purpose.
15: 89 And say: "I am indeed he that warneth openly and without ambiguity"
90 ** (Of just such wrath) as We sent down on those who divided (Scripture into arbitrary parts) **
91 ** (So also on such) as have made the Qur'an into shreds (as they please). **
92 Therefore by thy Lord We will of a surety call them to account
Ibrahim says: Dear Gandalf hence who will be there to help you when you will be questioned as to why you made verse 33:33 into what you claim it is when it is not??
Do you not realize verse 33:33 is only with regards to women folk and does not refer to any man? Are you in the Notion that Ali (ra) had to stay in his house like the women household of the Prophet (pbuh) ?
BUT MOST OF ALL,
Umm al-Mu'mineen means 'Mother of the Believers'. This was the title of the Prophet's wives; (sura 33 ayah 6 stipulated that they could not marry after the Prophet's death because all of the believers were their spiritual children.
Kindly read and digest what the following hadiths conveys………….
Al-Tirmidhi Hadith Hadith 175 Narrated by Anas ibn Malik
Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said to me:** My son, if you are in a position to pass your morning and evening keeping your heart free from malice against anyone, then act according to it (this high ideal). He then said: My son, and that is my Sunnah and he who loves my Sunnah, in fact loves me and he who loves me, will be with me in Paradise.**
Transmitted by Tirmidhi.
Sunan of Abu-Dawood Hadith 3585 Narrated by Mu'adh ibn Jabal
Some companions of Mu'adh ibn Jabal said: When the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) intended to send Mu'adh ibn Jabal to the Yemen, he asked: How will you judge when the occasion of deciding a case arises? ** He replied: I shall judge in accordance with Allah's Book. He asked: (What will you do) if you do not find any guidance in Allah's Book? He replied: (I shall act) in accordance with the Sunnah of the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him). He asked: (What will you do) if you do not find any guidance in the Sunnah of the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) and in Allah's Book? He replied: I shall do my best to form an opinion and I shall spare no effort. The Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) then patted him on the breast and said: Praise be to Allah Who has helped the messenger of the Apostle of Allah to find something which pleases the Apostle of Allah.**
Sahih Muslim Hadith Hadith 1420 Narrated by Abu Mas'ud al-Ansari
Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said: The one who is most versed in Allah's Book should act as Imam for the people, but if they are equally versed in reciting it, then** the one who has most knowledge regarding Sunnah; if they are equal regarding the Sunnah, then the earliest one to emigrate; if they emigrated at the same time, then the earliest one to embrace Islam.** No man must lead another in prayer where (the latter) has authority, or sit in his place of honour in his house, without his permission. Ashajj in his narration used the word "age" in place of "Islam"
Sunan of Abu-Dawood Hadith 4273 Narrated by Umm Salamah, Ummul Mu'minin
The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: ** Disagreement will occur** at the death of a caliph and a man of the people of Medina will come flying forth to Mecca. Some of the people of Mecca will come to him, bring him out against his will and swear allegiance to him between the Corner and the Maqam. An expeditionary force will then be sent against him from Syria but will be swallowed up in the desert between Mecca and Medina. When the people see that, the eminent saints of Syria and the best people of Iraq will come to him and swear allegiance to him between the Corner and the Maqam. Then there will arise a man of Quraysh whose maternal uncles belong to Kalb and send against them an expeditionary force which will be overcome by them, and that is the expedition of Kalb. Disappointed will be the one who does not receive the booty of Kalb. He will divide the property, ** and will govern the people by the Sunnah of their Prophet (peace be upon him) and establish Islam on Earth.** He will remain seven years, then die, and the Muslims will pray over him.
Sunan of Abu-Dawood Hadith 4590 Narrated by Irbad ibn Sariyah
AbdurRahman ibn Amr as-Sulami and Hujr ibn Hujr said: We came to Irbad ibn Sariyah who was among those about whom the following verse was revealed: "Nor (is there blame) on those who come to thee to be provided with mounts, and when thou saidst: "I can find no mounts for you." We greeted him and said: We have come to see you to give healing and obtain benefit from you. Al-Irbad said: One day the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) led us in prayer, then faced us and gave us a lengthy exhortation at which the eyes shed tears and the hearts were afraid. A man said:** Apostle of Allah! It seems as if it were a farewell exhortation, so what injunction do you give us? ** He then said: I enjoin you to fear Allah, and to hear and obey even if it be an Abyssinian slave, ** for those of you who live after me will see great disagreement. You must then follow my sunnah and that of the rightly-guided caliphs.** Hold to it and stick fast to it. Avoid novelties, for every novelty is an innovation, and every innovation is an error.
Sunan of Abu-Dawood Hadith 2879 Narrated by Abdullah ibn Amr ibn al-'As
The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: ** Knowledge has three categories; anything else is extra; a precise verse, or an established sunnah (practice), or a firm obligatory duty.**
Ibrahim says: Brother Gandalf I have given you precise verses from the Qur’an as well as sunnah , if you chose to negate them, that is your own doing.
Allah (swt) Knows Best.
Was salaam
Ibrahim
** Take account of yourself before you are asked to give account **
Brother Ibrahim;
Thank you for yr message.
I think that you are trying to see something that isn't there.
Let's take Muslim for example. The ONLY hadith that he has presented under the TOPIC of "Merits of the prophet's (pbuh) family is the hadith of the cloak:
**Chapter 9: THEE MERITS OF THE FAMILY OF THE PROPHET (MAY PEACE BE UPON HIM)
Book 031, Number 5955:
'A'isha reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) went out one norning wearing a striped cloak of the black camel's hair that there came Hasan b. 'Ali. He wrapped hitn under it, then came Husain and he wrapped him under it along with the other one (Hasan). Then came Fatima and he took her under it, then came 'Ali and he also took him under it and then said: Allah only desires to take away any uncleanliness from you, O people of the household, and purify you (thorough purifying)**
Muslim (the Author) did not put any other tradition in this section (section of the virtues of Ahlul-Bayt). If the author of Sahih Muslim believed that the wives of the Prophet were included in Ahlul-Bayt, he would have quoted some traditions about them in this section.
Also, I have with me Sahih Tirhmidhi, and I am quoting verbatim from Volume 5, pg 351:
Narrated in the authority of Umar Ibn Abi Salama, the son of Umm Salama (another wife of Prophet), which is as follows:
The verse "Verily Allah intends to ... (33:33)" was revealed to the Prophet (PBUH&HF) in the house of Umm Salama. Upon that, the Prophet gathered Fatimah, al-Hasan, and al-Husain, and covered them with a cloak, and he also covered Ali who was behind him. Then the Prophet said: "O' Allah! These are the Members of my House (Ahlul-Bayt). Keep them away from every impurity and purify them with a perfect purification." Umm Salama (the wife of Prophet) asked: "Am I also included among them O Apostle of Allah?" the Prophet replied: "You remain in your position and you are toward a good ending."
Al-Tirmidhi also confirms that Imam Ali, Fatimah, al-Hasan, and al-Husain are the Ahlul-Bayt, and the purification sentence in Quran (the last sentence of Verse 33:33) was revealed for the virtue of the above-mentioned individuals, and NOT for the wives of the Prophet (pbuh). Also it is apparent from above authentic tradition that the Prophet himself excluded his wives from Ahlul-Bayt.
If Umm Salama (ra) was among Ahlul-Bayt, why didn't the Prophet answer her positively? Why didn't he enter her into the cloak? Why did the Prophet tell her that she remains in her own position? If the Prophet (pbuh) would consider Umm Salama among Ahlul-Bayt, he would surely have entered her to the cloak and would have prayed for her perfect purity as well.
It is also worth mentioning that the Prophet (pbuh) did NOT say: "These are among the Members of my House". He rather said: "These are THE Members of my House" since there was no other member of Ahlul-Bayt who was alive at the time of the Prophet (pbuh). Also notice that Umm Salama (RA) who is the virtuous wife of the Prophet is the narrator of the tradition to his son and gives the testimony that who Ahlul-Bayt are.
It is quite possible that the verse was revealed more than once. In each occasion, the Prophet repeated his action in front of different wives so that they all realize who his Ahlul-Bayt are.
A Wizard arrives neither early nor late, but precisely when he chooses to
[This message has been edited by Gandalf (edited May 11, 2002).]
Brother Ibrahim;
It is worth mentioning the sentence of Quran in verse 33:33 which is related to purification of Ahlul-Bayt, has been placed at the middle of verses related to the wives of the Prophet (pbuh), and this is the main reason why you are including the wives of the Prophet in Ahlul-Bayt.
However, the sentence related to Ahlul-Bayt (given above) distinguishes itself from the sentences before and after it with a clear distinction. The sentences before and after, use only feminine gender which clearly shows they are addressing the wives of the Prophet (pbuh).
However, in contrary, the above sentence uses only masculine gender which is a clear indication that that Quran is changing the individuals who is referring to.
In Arabic language, when a group of women are being addressed, feminine gender is employed. However, if only one man exists among that group, masculine gender is used instead. Thus the above sentence of Quran clearly shows Allah is referring to a group other than the wives of the Prophet, using masculine gender, and that group includes some male members.
From the verse 33:33 alone, we can not conclude that the wives of the Prophet are not included in Ahlul-Bayt. This latter claim is then proven by the authentic traditions of the Sunnis from Sihah Sittah in which the Prophet mentioned who Ahlul-Bayt are.
Ibrahim says: salaams to all
Dear Gandalf,
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Gandalf wrote: I think that you are trying to see something that isn't there.
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Ibrahim says that’s funny, because you are the one who is interpolating your own understanding when the Qur’an is CLEAR as to whom it is referring to, and yet you turn it on me? Indeed something is amiss for someone who claims he is hanafi you seems to be thinking like shia, that is very funny indeed.
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Let's take Muslim for example.
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Ibrahim says My friend Did you reject the Qur’an and preferred the hadith in this matter?
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The ONLY hadith that he has presented under the TOPIC of "Merits of the prophet's (pbuh) family is the hadith of the cloak:
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Ibrahim says does that mean he has hidden others or does that mean he only collected that one and only addaed it after verfying what it meant by including foot notes for it) ?
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Chapter 9: THEE MERITS OF THE FAMILY OF THE PROPHET (MAY PEACE BE UPON HIM)
Book 031, Number 5955:
'A'isha reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) went out one norning wearing a striped cloak of the black camel's hair that there came Hasan b. 'Ali. He wrapped hitn under it, then came Husain and he wrapped him under it along with the other one (Hasan). Then came Fatima and he took her under it, then came 'Ali and he also took him under it and then said: Allah only desires to take away any uncleanliness from you, O people of the household, and purify you (thorough purifying) {/quote]
Ibrahim says : CHECK OUT THE Foot notes for Hadith 5955 Reference NO: 2714…..
This hadith along with the above –mentioned verse clarifies a point over which there has been a good deal of discussion. The Shiite on the basis of this hadith, assert that the ahl bait of the Holy Prophet (Pbuh) are only four noble souls: Imam Husain, Imam Hasan, Fatima and Ali (Allah be pleased with all of them). But the context in which this verse 33:33 has been revealed clearly shows that the ahl bait implies the wives of the holy prophet (pbuh) as it has been said at the opening of this verse: ** And stay quietly in your houses and make not a dazzling display like that of the former Times of Ignorance; On different occasions where the word ahl bait has been used it signifies wife as is the case of Ibrahim’s wife in 11:73 and Imran’s wife in 3:33-35. or Moses mother in 28:12. Keeping into consideration both of these points the correct view is that the wives of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) , his children, his daughters and sons-in-laws and their children all come under ahl bait. Both the groups err when they exclude one at the cost of another, i.e those who exclude wives and include Fatima, Ali , Hasan and Husain (Allah be pleased with them) in ahl bait and those who exclude these four noble souls the mention of which has been made in this hadith and include the Prophets wives only amongst the ahl bait.
** Gandalf! On what authority do you reject the foot notes as conveyed by Muslim yet declare this hadith overrides what is revealed in the Qur’an?? **
Brother! I already explained this, do I need to repeat it again , I guess for your sake, I have to
1) Allah (swt) reveals in Surah 33: matter concerning the wives of the Prophet and also raised them to a level which had not been given to the other relatives of the Prophet.
** Umm al-Mu'mineen** means 'Mother of the Believers'. This was the title of the Prophet's wives; (sura 33 ayah 6 stipulated that they could not marry after the Prophet's death because all of the believers were their spiritual children and they were the ahl bait of the Prophet (pbuh) ** .
Thus this actions would have heightened whatever jealousies that exist more in women folk as compared to man ( which is natural amongst human beings) .
Thus the above action of the Prophet not only reduces the tensions but also ensures that the entire family was to be respected by the Muslims as a whole and not just the wives.
They was a need for Muslims to make distinctions amongst the ahl bait on one hand
1) the wives may receive zakat but cannot marry any one else after the prophet’s demise, which will leave them in dire needs
2) on the other the relatives may not receive zakat and Allah (swt) did not exult them as the wives of the Prophet.
yet both of them had to be looked after and respected by the Muslim community as the ahl bait.
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Muslim (the Author) did not put any other tradition in this section (section of the virtues of Ahlul-Bayt).
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Ibrahim says O Brother the titles is given by Muslim as to how he wanted to compile hadiths, his mannerisms are his own, so do not go around thinking otherwise, Now the question why are you rejecting his foot notes, when he was a lot closer to determining what that hadith meant than you and I ?
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If the author of Sahih Muslim believed that the wives of the Prophet were included in Ahlul-Bayt, he would have quoted some traditions about them in this section.
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Ibrahim says What! , you want Muslim to invent his own sayings? They are compilers they collect what was around and provide foot notes where the matters is unclear for all to read, here you will accept the hadith but reject the foot note, this only makes sense when you have already established a clear agenda for yourself, which looks more like shia way of thinking.
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Also, I have with me Sahih Tirhmidhi, and I am quoting verbatim from Volume 5, pg 351:
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Ibrahim says: kindly quote hadith number so that I can verify it at my own pleasure.
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Al-Tirmidhi also confirms that Imam Ali, Fatimah, al-Hasan, and al-Husain are the Ahlul-Bayt, and the purification sentence in Quran (the last sentence of Verse 33:33) was revealed for the virtue of the above-mentioned individuals, and NOT for the wives of the Prophet (pbuh). Also it is apparent from above authentic tradition that the Prophet himself excluded his wives from Ahlul-Bayt.
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Ibrahim says : where does he confirm this? Second who had said they were not the ahl bait at anytime?
Kindly note an ayah is not revealed in two parts, verse 33:33 is a complete ayah and what you and shias do is quote half of it and claim it is ayah 33:33.
People who have been studying the Qur’an seem to unanimously understand the ahl bait includes the wives and the relatives ( includes all, not just Ali (ra) and his wife and children) of the Prophet but in your case you seem to understand it otherwise (which is the Shia dogma)
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It is worth mentioning the sentence of Quran in verse 33:33 which is related to purification of Ahlul-Bayt, has been placed at the middle of verses related to the wives of the Prophet (pbuh), and this is the main reason why you are including the wives of the Prophet in Ahlul-Bayt.
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Ibrahim says : Brother did you receive some revelations as to how it ( one verse became two) or are you being influenced by shi ism and spreading shia propaganda here. ?
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In Arabic language, when a group of women are being addressed, feminine gender is employed.
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Ibrahim says: you started a thread in wanting to learn Arabic this week, , are you now teachings Arabic already?
Kindly re-read the verse I quoted from the Qur’an, if you have chosen to discount the Qur’an by snipping it off , I am afraid you will end up the loser when you accept a hadith that may contradict the Qur’an , May Allah (swt) help you, if it be His will.
Allah (swt) knows best
Was salaam
Ibrahim
** there are NO coincidences in life. Everything happens for a reason **
Brother Ibrahim,
Your trite remarks aside;
People who are familiar with Quran to some extent, know that such a sharp change of addressee is not strange, and it has been applied to several places in Quran. For instance we read in Quran:
PLEASE NOTE THE FOLLOWING CAREFULLY
[Shakir 12:29] O Yusuf! turn aside from this; and (O my wife)! ask forgiveness for your fault, surely you are one of the wrong-doers.
In the above verse, "O wife of Aziz" has not been mentioned and the address to Joseph (AS) looks to continue. However the transition of the address from masculine gender to feminine gender clearly shows that the second sentence is addressing the Aziz's wife and not Prophet Joseph (AS).
Notice that both sentences are WITHIN one verse. Also note the immediate change of addressing from Aziz's wife to Joseph and again back to the wife in verses before verse 29 and also WITHIN that verse.
Similarly, in verse 33:33, though it may seem that the ayat includes the wives of the prophet (pbuh), there is a sharp change in the ADRESSEE, as the gender changes from Masculine to Feminine.
This grammatical change, as well as the hadiths of the cloak narrated by Umm Momineen Aisha (ra), Umm Salma (ra), and Safiya (ra), shows that the holy prophet (pbuh) on more than one occassion clearly outlined who his ahl-bait - which were separate from his wives.
If we have to go any further with this discussion, I advise you to analyze the grammatical change in the gender of the verse.
Also, look up the hadith in Sahih Tirmidhi, where the holy prophet (pbuh) excluded Umm Salma (ra), the righteous wife of the holy prophet (pbuh), from the 5 in the cloak.
Allah (swt) Knows Best.
A Wizard arrives neither early nor late, but precisely when he chooses to