Shia's and Matam-e-Hussain... A request to Shia Guppies...

My father has great respect for shia’s. Me too. I have my best friend and business partner as shia. I have a question to ask to all the civilized/educated shia community @ gupshup.

I personally get so irritated and disgusted whenever Xtreme shia’s do matam and injure/hurt/bleed their selves. Especially when they are living in America and other European countries. What is the need here to do that? Isn’t the need of the time to show how peaceful Muslims are? Why we have to show the world that how radical and how extreme we are?

Why shia’s have to take the bloody bath in front of thousand’s of cameras? I have nothing against ‘Jaloos’ and matam for Moula Hussain. I have personally attended those Majalis and ‘Jaloos’, but it just utterly disgusts me when it comes to killing in the name of some living being.

If you want to go that extreme and hurt your self, then do it in the name of Allah s.w.t. EVEN THEN a we are NOT allowed by ANY means to hurt ourselves. Allah has given us this life and Allah will take it back. It is HIS ammant in this duniya. HE has NEVER allowed us in ANY circumstances to hit/cut/bleed ourselves in any circumstances.

I want to know the stand of my sister/brother shia people here. Especially from brother SherazCT and other active shia’ guppies.

I apologize if my post would hurt your feelings by any means but Allah knows what are my intentions to write this post.
JazzakAllah.
-Salman

Re: Shia's and Matam-e-Hussain... A request to Shia Guppies...

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by SalmanNY: *
My father has great respect for shia's. Me too. I have my best friend and business partner as shia. I have a question to ask to all the civilized/educated shia community @ gupshup.

[/QUOTE]

here you're saying that your best mate is a shia and ur share a business with him, and in the other thread you wrote this about shias:

[quote]
Sadzz It is the in the VERY basics of Islam to stand against or at least raise a voice when you see something done wrong in the circle of your religion.
[/quote]

why don't you stand against this shia friend of urs?

Re: Re: Shia’s and Matam-e-Hussain… A request to Shia Guppies…

Dude what the heck is wrong with you stop putting tabs on me and move on. I am strictly talking about Ahemdi’s and anything that has to do with the respect of Prophet Mohammad :saw:, go read that thead top to bottom again.
Please refrain your self from spreading false information or ‘picked’ lines that maligns other guppies image. In case if you forgot to read I have said in the subject A request to Shia Guppies….

Thank you.

^as far as I know, that thread was on both shias and ahmadis. And even in ur post you did not explicitly distinguish between the two, so how do you expect me to know ur only addressing ahmadis here. But then again why only take ahmadis and consider shias as ok

I was strictly reffering to the ahemdi belief of another prophet after Prophet Mohammad :saw:. If, what I wrote is too hardcore of an english for you to understand, then it is your problem not mine. Please STICK TO THE TOPIC if you are not Shia then i would like you tou be out of my thread and not waste my time. Thank you.

Salman,

I will paste the similar questions that have been answered by the shia scholers:

Questions:

It is my understanding that the act of beating one's self in mourning for Imam Husayn a.s. with blades or otherwise, is allowed in Islam.

QUESTION(a)

But when this type of behavior leads non-muslims to believe
that the Shi'ah are barbarious and that their religion is based more on
emotion than reason, and it confirms their misconception about us that we are fanatics and zealots, can it still be considered allowed?

ANSWER:

A(a) The ritual of self-flagellation as part of the Muharram
observances has generated heated discussion amongst the scholars and
laity. For instance, around mid 1920's Sayyid Abu-l-Hasan Isfahani
in Najaf and Sayyid Muhammad Qazwini in Basra issued legal opinions
against this practise. A similar position was taken by Muhsin al-Amin.
They were rebutted by Abd-ul-Husayn al-Hilli and members of the Kashif
al-Ghita family. Two issues were of concern for the jurists - one is
that this ritual at times led to the loss of human life and second,
public perception of Shi'ism. Ayatullah Sayyid Ali Khamena'i made
this ritual of qame zadan (hitting the head with a knife) haram by
virtue of the harm it does to public image of Shi'ism. Also, Shaykh
Shamsuddin and most probably even Ayat. Fadlullah have issued legal
opinions similar to Ayat. Khamena'i. However, most of the prominent
jurists have a different opinion. For instance, Ayat. Gulpaygani and
Ayat. Araki allow the ritual of self-flagellation so long as there is
no fear of loss of life or causing injury to any organ of the body.
However, Ayat. Gulpaygani states that it is better to avoid this
practise based on precaution (ihtiyat). They all emphasize that the
commemmorative mourning ceremonies, that take different forms, must
be kept alive to preserve the vitality of the symbol of Imam
Husayn (a.s.). In all probability the legal opinions of Ayat. Khui and Seestani
on this would be the same as Ayats. Araki and Gulpaygani.

QUESTION(b)

Doesn't this type of behavior misguide people from the school of
Ahlul-Bayt? If it does, are we responsible for that?

ANSWER:

A(b) If it can be demonstrated to the jurists that it misguides
people, then perhaps they would prohibit it.

QUESTION(c)

What are the guidelines of Azaa that the Imams (as) have given
us? Have they instructed us to beat ourselves or have they condoned this?

ANSWER:

A(c) The Imams (a.s.) have given very general guidelines to us and
that is to mourn for them and show sorrow and grief. These different
rituals are human expression of public display of the grief. However,
Imam Husayn (a.s.) gave a clear instruction to his sister not to
scratch her face or tear apart her clothes.

Question:

My question is that, what is the actual wording of the ruling of Grand
Ayatullah Syed Ali Hussani Seestani (may he live long), on the issue of
"Zanjeer Ma'tam"?

Answer:

Ayatullah Seestani permits zanjeer matam provided there is no fear of loss of life or causing irreversible injury to any limb.

you can come out with two very important points from these questions..i will let you make the conclusion :)

Two points that i come up with is

1-Imam Hussain (ra) strictly told us not do harm ourselves.
2-Ayatullah Seestani permits zanjeer matam provided there is no fear of loss of life or causing irreversible injury to any limb

but then this confuses me altogether

quote If it can be demonstrated to the jurists that it misguides
people, then perhaps they would prohibit it.
[/quote]

Aside from what they have to say, I would want to know a common shia's point of view about this. My best friend he is totally against it himself and his own family. I just want to know what other shia's of moderan age think about this
-Sal

THANK YOU VERY VERY MUCH FOR YOUR REPLY. MAY ALLAH GIVE YOU AJJAR FOR THIS.

majority of the shia are following Ayuttullah Seestani so they MUST follow him regarding such matters...it is allowed provided there is no fear of loss of life or causing irreversible injury to any limb.

2nd point is that if its giving a wrong image of the shias and azadari infront of the non muslims then avoid it..no need to do it in public

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Sheraz CT: *
majority of the shia are following Ayuttullah Seestani so they MUST follow him regarding such matters...it is allowed provided there is no fear of loss of life or causing irreversible injury to any limb.

2nd point is that if its giving a wrong image of the shias and azadari infront of the non muslims then avoid it..no need to do it in public
[/QUOTE]

Thanx... and your view ?...

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by SalmanNY: *

Thanx... and your view ?...
[/QUOTE]

i agree with the the above post i write completely..main bhi Ayuttullah Seestani ki taqleed main hoon...i don't do zanjeer zani myself but i don't have a problem with a person who is doing zanjeer zani as long as they consider those two points..i cant convince you because only an azadar of Imam Hussain (a.s.) can understand it completely

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Sheraz CT: *

i agree with the the above post i write completely..main bhi Ayuttullah Seestani ki taqleed main hoon...i don't do zanjeer zani myself but i don't have a problem with a person who is doing zanjeer zani as long as they consider those two points..i cant convince you because only an azadar of Imam Hussain (a.s.) can understand it completely
[/QUOTE]

Contrary to your post above I understand the pain you guys have for Imam hussain (ra) TRUST me on that.

But IMO Zangeer Zani should be done privately no need to show it the whole world. Fine if you are in a muslim country do it as much even opennly on the streets where no video coverage is available especially from foriegn media.

I have seen people taking bath in blood here in New York and to me that is a BIG no no. We are just making this worst of us and other muslims. Thats my opinion.
-Salman

Salman... if I understand you correctly, you are not concerned about the pain and the injury to the participants, but are more concerned ... almost embarassed as a muslim ... as to what foreigners will think about when they see images of zanjeer-zani etc.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *
Salman... if I understand you correctly, you are not concerned about the pain and the injury to the participants, but are more concerned ... almost embarassed as a muslim ... as to what foreigners will think about when they see images of zanjeer-zani etc.
[/QUOTE]

Faisal bhai, I have done mataam to a very extreme extent my self when I was young. I am VERY concerned about the pain and the suffering that they brought onto theirselves.

What I am concerned about that an CEO or an Employer who witnesses these things and when a very qualified applicant comes for the respective job, he/she is denied because in the back of that CEO/Employer he has those images and SOMEHOW he/she is disqualified. A grieve loss to that very qualified Muslim applicant. Does he/she deserves that ? No.

That is just ONE example. How about a group of people attacking a Muslim girl or a mosque out of hatred, what we are to do? Do we want that ?

Do we want this level hatteredness towards us? Does a Hijabi girl deserves those peeved eyes on her? Does she deserve that scrutiny that she faces in her every daily life?

I don't think so. If blood/bath mattam can be avoided publicly, It SHOULD be. Shia's are most welcome to do it privaltey or in a closed environment where there is no media present.
Please enlighten me with your opinion on this faisal bhai.
-Salman

^ I am not sure I understand your above examples in the context of this thread. Aer you saying a CEO sees muslims doing matam, and when a muslim applies for a job, the job is denied? If thats the case, the CEO is probably a retard and thus its much better for the applicant not to work for that CEO/company. If on the otherhand, you are saying that a muslim is caught doing matam on television, and then the same muslim applies for a job, the CEO recognizes him and denies him the job. Same as above.

Muslim women attacked due to hatred? Or head scarves? Why would someone attack a muslim woman after seeing matam on television?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by SalmanNY: *

Faisal bhai, I have done mataam to a very extreme extent my self when I was young. I am VERY concerned about the pain and the suffering that they brought onto theirselves.

What I am concerned about that an CEO or an Employer who witnesses these things and when a very qualified applicant comes for the respective job, he/she is denied because in the back of that CEO/Employer he has those images and SOMEHOW he/she is disqualified. A grieve loss to that very qualified Muslim applicant. Does he/she deserves that ? No.

That is just ONE example. How about a group of people attacking a Muslim girl or a mosque out of hatred, what we are to do? Do we want that ?

Do we want this level hatteredness towards us? Does a Hijabi girl deserves those peeved eyes on her? Does she deserve that scrutiny that she faces in her every daily life?

I don't think so. If blood/bath mattam can be avoided publicly, It SHOULD be. Shia's are most welcome to do it privaltey or in a closed environment where there is no media present.
Please enlighten me with your opinion on this faisal bhai.
-Salman
[/QUOTE]

CEO's will disqualify a muslim not because he say someone whipping HIMSELF with chains but rather watching someone blowup kids in a pizza parlor.

Mosques are attacked by idiots. It is also another set of idiots who use mosques as hiding places and launching pads for terrorist activities.

Faisal bhai may be I am not clearing my self. But what I am trying to say is the image that is portrayed by doing matam is of extremist. Muslims are not extremist by nature. When a CEO or anybody (I just gave an example) or any higher non-Muslim authority sees such kind of practice, what kind of image as Muslims are we leaving on them? Does it truly portrays the teachings of Islam and Prophet Mohammad :saw: ?

Attacking a Hijabi girl was just another example, I don’t want people to think of my fellow Muslims both sunni/shia that we are extremist. We don’t cut ourselves for fun (that’s what they think) We cut ourselves for a more deeper reason that only a true muslim can understand.

I hope I make my point understandable.

Well, if you want to distance mainstream muslims from 'extremist' elements, then I'd have to agree with Matsui.... Images of muslims doing 'Matam' are really something internal, and are quite irrelevant in the minds of non-muslims, compared to images of 9/11 hijackers, Osama, Saddam, other terrorists, bombs blowing off, Madrid train wreckage etc.

These are the images that foster hatred against Islam. The examples you gave i.e. muslims not getting hired, hijabi women getting attacked etc... are more due to violence against non-muslims rather than matam done to themselves. IMO, ofcourse. Feel free to disagree :)

Ugghhhhh I do disagree… IMO Matam and violence shown are not EXACTLY the same but the portray more or less the same image/idea about Muslims..i.e they are extremist. :wave:
-Salman

zanjeer zani in the nyc area atleast is done privately inside the mosque so i am not sure how the non muslims will see it