Shia Sunni relations in the subcontinent

Arts & Culture History
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Re: Shia Sunni relations in the subcontinent

what was the reason for iraq being shia?

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Re: Shia Sunni relations in the subcontinent

Shi’a Islam in Iraq - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

From the late 18th century and onwards, there was a massive conversion of the majority of Iraq’s Sunni Arab tribes to Shi’ism (especially during the 19th century).[SUP][3]](Shia Islam in Iraq - Wikipedia)[/SUP] The following tribes were converted during this period:[SUP][3]](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shi’a_Islam_in_Iraq#cite_note-books.google.com.au-3)[/SUP][SUP][5]](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shi’a_Islam_in_Iraq#cite_note-Haydari_pg.110-15-5)[/SUP] Some sections of Zubaid,[SUP][6]](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shi’a_Islam_in_Iraq#cite_note-6)[/SUP][SUP][7]](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shi’a_Islam_in_Iraq#cite_note-Abdallah_Mahmud_Shukri_1928-7)[/SUP] Banu Lam, al bu Muhammad, large sections of the Rabiah (including al-Dafaf’a, Bani Amir and al-Jaghayfa), Banu Tamim[SUP][7]](Shia Islam in Iraq - Wikipedia)[/SUP] (including their largest section in Iraq –Bani Sa’d), the Shammar Toga,[SUP][7]](Shia Islam in Iraq - Wikipedia)[/SUP] some sections of Dulaim, the Zafir, the Dawwar, the Sawakin, al-Muntafiq confederation,[SUP][8]](Shia Islam in Iraq - Wikipedia)[/SUP] the Bani Hasan (of the Bani Malik),[SUP][3]](Shia Islam in Iraq - Wikipedia)[/SUP] those of the Afak,[SUP][3]](Shia Islam in Iraq - Wikipedia)[/SUP] the Bani Hukayyim,[SUP][3]](Shia Islam in Iraq - Wikipedia)[/SUP] the Shibil (of the Khazal),[SUP][3]](Shia Islam in Iraq - Wikipedia)[/SUP] the al Fatla,[SUP][3]](Shia Islam in Iraq - Wikipedia)[/SUP] the many tribes along the Hindiyacanal, and the 5 tribes of Al Diwaniyah (Aqra’, Budayyir, Afak, Jubur and Jilaiha) that relied on the Daghara canal for their water supply.
This massive scope of conversion continued as late as the 20th century. Even in 1917, it was noted by the British that the conversions were still going on vigorously.[SUP][9]](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shi’a_Islam_in_Iraq#cite_note-9)[/SUP][SUP][10]](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shi’a_Islam_in_Iraq#cite_note-10)[/SUP] Therefore, the Shi’a of Iraq are mostly recent converts (i.e. from the late 18th century and onwards).[SUP][11]](Shia Islam in Iraq - Wikipedia)[/SUP]
This conversion process of the nominally Sunni tribes was so successful for a number of reasons. One reason was that, nomadic Sunni Arab tribes either settled to sedentary agricultural life in the hinterlands of Najaf and Karbala, or traded with them in the 19th century and increasingly interacted with the people of these two Shi’a holy places.[SUP][12]](Shia Islam in Iraq - Wikipedia)[/SUP] Another reason was the Ottoman policy of settling the nomadic Sunni Arab tribes, in order to create greater centralization in Iraq.[SUP][13]](Shia Islam in Iraq - Wikipedia)[/SUP] Another reason was that conversion was a form of protest of the tribes people to their treatment by their Sunni Ottoman overlords.[SUP][14]](Shia Islam in Iraq - Wikipedia)[/SUP] There was also the ability of the Shi’a missionaries from Najaf and Karbala to proselytize among the Sunni Arab tribes without official hindrance, due to their relative autonomy from the Ottoman Empire and the Ottoman’s only trying to respond to the conversions after it was too late.[SUP][15]](Shia Islam in Iraq - Wikipedia)[/SUP]
Starting with the British-controlled “State of Iraq” founded in 1920 after the defeat of the Ottoman Empire, Shia opposed British rule.

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Re: Shia Sunni relations in the subcontinent

the irony is that safavids were turks themselves. I think that the conversion of iran to shiites might have a reasoning in the national humiliation of the persian nationalists in getting defeated by a rather baddu arrmy of hazrat umar (RA) who shiites denigrate for being a usurper along with the otber 2 non-Ali caliphs. I don't think that egypt ever converted to shiism by fatimids, so shiism must be in real decline at one point in history until they got the prize of Iran.

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Re: Shia Sunni relations in the subcontinent

so they have to wait for 8 centuries to reach their target?

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Re: Shia Sunni relations in the subcontinent

Safavid conversion of Iran to Shia Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The **Safavid conversion of Iran from Sunnism to Shiism made Iran the spiritual bastion of Shia Islam against the onslaughts of orthodox Sunni Islam, and the repository of Persian cultural traditions and self-awareness of Iranianhood, acting as a bridge to modern Iran. It also ensured the final dominance of the Twelver sect within Shiism over the Zaidi and Ismaili sects - each of whom had previously experienced their own eras of dominance within Shiism. Through their actions, the Safavids reunified Iran as an independent state in 1501 and established Twelver Shiism as the official religion of their empire, marking one of the most important turning points in the history of Islam.

**Pre-Safavid Iran[TABLE=“class: infobox collapsible collapsed, width: 170”]

[TH=“colspan: 2”]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/27/Basmala.svg/170px-Basmala.svg.pngPart of a series on Shia Islam
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Iran’s population was mostly Sunni of the Shafii](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shafi%60i)[SUP][1]](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safavid_conversion_of_Iran_to_Shia_Islam#cite_note-1)[/SUP] and [Hanafi](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanafi) legal rites until the triumph of the Safavids (who had initially been Shafii Sufis themselves).[SUP][2][/SUP] Ironically, this was to the extent that up until the end of the 15th century the Ottoman Empire (the most powerful and prominent Sunni state and future arch-enemy of the Shia Safavids) used to send many of its Ulema (Islamic scholars) to Iran to further their education in Sunni Islam, due to a lack of Madrasahs (Islamic schools) within the Empire itself.[SUP][3]](Safavid conversion of Iran to Shia Islam - Wikipedia)[/SUP] The Sunni Iranians had always held the family of Muhammad in high esteem.[SUP][4]](Safavid conversion of Iran to Shia Islam - Wikipedia)[/SUP] In contrast, before the Safavid period, a minority of Iranians were Shia and there had been relatively few Shia Ulema in Iran.[SUP][5]](Safavid conversion of Iran to Shia Islam - Wikipedia)

From 1500–2 Ismail I conquered Tabriz. He would take most of the next decade to consolidate his control over Iran, where most of the Persian population was still Sunni. His army spread out first to the central regions in 1504. He captured southwestern Iran between 1505 and 1508 before finally conquering the Khorasanregion and the city of Herat in 1510.[SUP][6]](Safavid conversion of Iran to Shia Islam - Wikipedia)[/SUP] From the very beginning, the Safavid Dynasty was established on two foundations. One was Shia and the other was Persia, and Ismail concentrated more on the first than the second. His hatred of the Sunnis knew no bounds: he was the most intolerant Shia ruler since the fall of the Fatimids and his persecution of Sunnis was ruthless. He aimed at no less than the complete destruction of Sunnism.[SUP][7]](Safavid conversion of Iran to Shia Islam - Wikipedia)[/SUP] Thus, the alternative for the majority of the Persians (who were Sunnis at the time), was either convert to Shiism or accept death.[SUP][8]](Safavid conversion of Iran to Shia Islam - Wikipedia)[/SUP] Consequently, in the territory that came fully under his control, he was astonishingly successful in enforcing the conversion of the populace from Sunnism to Shiism.
edit]Reasons for Ismail’s conversion policyMore than most Muslim dynasties the Safavids worked for conversion to their branch of Islam and for ideological conformity. The reasons for this conversion policy included:

edit]Methods of converting IranIsmail consolidated his rule over the country and launched a thorough and at times brutal campaign to convert the majority Sunni population to Twelver Shiism and thus transform the religious landscape of Iran.[SUP][14]](Safavid conversion of Iran to Shia Islam - Wikipedia)[/SUP] His methods of converting Iran included:

edit]The fate of Sunni and Shia Ulema (scholars)edit]Sunni UlemaThe early Safavid rulers took a number of steps against the Sunni Ulema of Iran. These steps included giving the Ulema the choice of conversion, death, or exile[SUP][29]](Safavid conversion of Iran to Shia Islam - Wikipedia)[/SUP][SUP][30]](Safavid conversion of Iran to Shia Islam - Wikipedia)[/SUP][SUP][31]](Safavid conversion of Iran to Shia Islam - Wikipedia)[/SUP] and massacring the Sunni clerics who resisted the Shia transformation of Iran, as witnessed in Herat.[SUP][32]](Safavid conversion of Iran to Shia Islam - Wikipedia)[/SUP] As a result, many Sunni scholars who refused to adopt the new religious direction lost their lives or fled to the neighboring Sunni states.[SUP][33]](Safavid conversion of Iran to Shia Islam - Wikipedia)[/SUP][SUP][34]](Safavid conversion of Iran to Shia Islam - Wikipedia)[/SUP]
edit]Arab Shia UlemaAfter the conquest, Ismail began transforming the religious landscape of Iran by imposing Twelver Shiism on the populace. Since most of the population embraced Sunni Islam and since an educated version of Shiism was scarce in Iran at the time, Ismail imported a new Shia Ulema corps from traditional Shiite centers of the Arabic speaking lands, such as Jabal Amil (of Southern Lebanon), Bahrainand Southern Iraq in order to create a state clergy. Ismail offered them land and money in return for loyalty. These scholars taught the doctrine of Twelver Shiism and made it accessible to the population and energetically encouraged conversion to Shiism.[SUP][35]](Safavid conversion of Iran to Shia Islam - Wikipedia)[/SUP][SUP][36]](Safavid conversion of Iran to Shia Islam - Wikipedia)[/SUP][SUP][37]](Safavid conversion of Iran to Shia Islam - Wikipedia)[/SUP][SUP][38]](Safavid conversion of Iran to Shia Islam - Wikipedia)[/SUP] To emphasize how scarce Twelver Shiism was then to be found in Iran, a chronicler tells us that only one Shia text could be found in Ismail’s capital Tabriz.[SUP][39]](Safavid conversion of Iran to Shia Islam - Wikipedia)[/SUP]Thus it is questionable whether Ismail and his followers could have succeeded in forcing a whole people to adopt a new faith without the support of the Arab Shiite scholars.[SUP][40]](Safavid conversion of Iran to Shia Islam - Wikipedia)[/SUP] The rulers of Safavid Persia also invited these foreign Shiite religious scholars to their court in order to provide legitimacy for their own rule over Persia.[SUP][41]](Safavid conversion of Iran to Shia Islam - Wikipedia)[/SUP]
Abbas I of Persia, during his reign, also imported more Arab Shia Ulema to Iran, built religious institutions for them, including many Madrasahs (religious schools) and successfully persuaded them to participate in the government, which they had shunned in the past (following the Hidden imam doctrine).[SUP][42]](Safavid conversion of Iran to Shia Islam - Wikipedia)[/SUP]
[/SUP]

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Re: Shia Sunni relations in the subcontinent

Its interesting that the Safavids used to be Shafi’s themselves? Do the shafis also have sufis? :hmmm: Safavids gave three options to the sunnis of Iran, convert, death or exile. Its pertinent to note that this was the era when many sufis moved into the subcontinent.

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Re: Shia Sunni relations in the subcontinent

The sufis who migrated from Iran did followed Shia beliefs and love of Ihl e Bait was a central point of their teachings, but they didn’t talked against other caliphs, etc. Shah Latif wrote a complete sur (chapter) on Karbala, but he didn’t leave any comments against anyone in hilighting the tragedy.

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Re: Shia Sunni relations in the subcontinent

was Shah Shams Tabrez Shia? My ancestors were originally from Iraq, Sammarra and they also came to the subcontinent in 1500's. The people who came from Iran were Sufis and hence the love of ahl e bayt was there.

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I think he was Ismaili who later converted to Shafai Sunni

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I think the barelvi sect in Pakistan has a lot of influence from Persia as well.

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Re: Shia Sunni relations in the subcontinent

how? explain

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Re: Shia Sunni relations in the subcontinent

^ well firstly imam Abu hanifa and imam ghazali were Persians. Most of Pakistanis are hanafis, secondly most of the Sufis were Persians (even those from Afghanistan fall into this category as that used to be a part of Persia as well). My Internet is not permitting at the moment but we can just see the credential of the most important ones and you will see what I am inferring.

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Re: Shia Sunni relations in the subcontinent

Iran was under mongol rule and they probably promoted sunniism as that is what would fit them in the middle east region with other muslims.

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Re: Shia Sunni relations in the subcontinent

Mongols promoting sunnism in Iran is a mere conjecture. Iranians were already majority sunni even before Mongols. The greatest Imam of ahle sunnat, Abu Hanifa was born in 699 AD. Long before Mongols arrived in 1200s.

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Re: Shia Sunni relations in the subcontinent

Well, who do you think he would have written against, when discussing Karbala? Mentioning Yazid for responsible for Karbala is not considered sectarian by majority of people, whether shia or sunni.
BTW, you do know that Bhitai was shia. Right?

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Re: Shia Sunni relations in the subcontinent

That would imply that Barelvi thinking is confined only to Iran/Pakistan/India etc. But actually it was thinking of majority Muslim world, including Ottomans. The first Wahhabi Saudi kingdom considered sunni Ottomans kafir and worthy of waging jihad against.

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Re: Shia Sunni relations in the subcontinent

Well, you are thinking WRONG. Iran was much older and developed civilization than Arabs. After Islamic conquet, Iranians quickly took reins of direction of where to take Islam. So there was no reason for them to feel humiliated when they were already at the forefront of Islamic world. Sunni Iranian ulema of those times have huge contributions to sunni Islam.

The story you are telling above is the story of sectarian organizations of Pakistan, where they to create animosity against Iran in the eyes of common ignorant Pakistanis. Such people have no shame in telling lies in the name of Islam.

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Re: Shia Sunni relations in the subcontinent

Yes I know most of the Sindhi sufis follow shia ideology and had they talked against any person revered by Sunnis, they would never got the respect from Public at large and sufisim never comes against a particular person. Sufisim is believed to be originated by Hazrat Ali and there is no conflict between sufis and shias.

Shah Latif did the same thing in his poetry about Karbala. He hilighted the tragedy, but in a way which don't offend Sunni readers.

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Re: Shia Sunni relations in the subcontinent

Well, what I am saying is that there is nothing in Karbala tragedy which would offend any sunni. Be it Shah Latif or Maulana Muhammad Ali Jauhar or Allama Iqbal. Everyone mentioned Karbala, everyone condemned Yazid. And none felt like offending anyone. Because they included both Shias and Sunnis.

It was Jauhar, a Sunni, who condemned Yazid by saying:
Qatl e Hussain asl mein marg e YAZID he
Islam zinda hota he har karbala ke baad

Khwaja Chishti, another sunni, also condemned Yazid:
shah ast hussain, badshah ast hussain
deen ast hussain, deen panaah ast hussain
sar daad, na daad dast, dar dast e YAZID
haqqa k binaa e la ilaah ast hussain

Iqbal, another Sunni, says about Yazid:
Musa o Firaun, Shabbir o YAZID
Een do quwwat az hayaat aamad padeed
(Moses and Pharaoh and Hussain and Yazeed. These forces have been in struggle from the beginning.)

May be I am off topic. I am just saying that Karbala is not just a tragedy related to Shias. Sunnis own him and Karbala as well.

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Re: Shia Sunni relations in the subcontinent

you are right that Karbala is tragedy for all the Muslims and no one can't deny this, but different accounts of this tragedy do create conflict between different sects. Its time that we disown inherited enmities and come to the common points between all the sects.