Salaam
Brother raptor i read the commentory u sent me for the Ayat33 of surah Ahzaaz for ayat, I didnt see him emphasizing on the ayat 33 of the surah, but can you justify me if you read the 32 Ayat of the the same Surah, Quran asks the wives of the Prophet not to leave their houses, I will post the translation of the Ayat later, Can this justify her act of leaving her house and comming to battle against Hazrat Ali, Does it help us understand who was on Haq and who wasn't.
Abbas sahib–you have a very nice attitude and i have to admit you are only the SECOND shia in my whole life who has shown such respect towards the Sahaba e Karaam. I am a Sunni and I belong to the majority Sunnis (i.e. in Indo-Pak they are known as Barelvis for identification purposes. My aqeedah is the same as a traditional sunni from any other part of the world i.e. Maturidi/Ashari.)
You seem very sincere but can I please ask you to be honest when you reply to my first question (after that I will insha Allah ask/answer your other points).
Can you swear that you are NOT doing taqiyya when you say that you disagree with the majority of shia scholars (as from the www.al-islam.com shia site) regarding your views on the Ahle Sunnah? Because if you are telling me your real feelings then there is v. little difference between us…the question is IF…
hope you’ll answer
Unfortunately the attitude of CT Shiraz is the typical shia attitude i have come across more often than not (inlcuding in their most prominent works by authors such as Khomeini)
..it is the fatwa of the Ahle Sunnah ulama since the first years of Islam that anyone who curses or disbelieves in the caliphate of
Hazrat Sayyidina Ashraful Makhlooqaat Ba'd Al Anbiya Abu Bakr as Siddeeq or Hazrat Amir ul Momineen Umar ibn Al Khattaab radhi Allah anhuma is a kaafir without doubt.
(See Abbas, the comments by your co-religionists do not support your own views...but i will give YOU personally the benefit of the doubt....so please continue.)
[quote]
Originally posted by Asif:
**..it is the fatwa of the Ahle Sunnah ulama since the first years of Islam that anyone who curses or disbelieves in the caliphate of
Hazrat Sayyidina Ashraful Makhlooqaat Ba'd Al Anbiya Abu Bakr as Siddeeq or Hazrat Amir ul Momineen Umar ibn Al Khattaab radhi Allah anhuma is a kaafir without doubt.
**
[/quote]
Asif Bhai what was/is the fatwa of your ulama about cursing of hazrat Usman and Moula e Kaynat, Sahib e Zulfikhar, Muzhar ul Ajaib,Fatah e Khaiber,Babul Ilm, waris e kausar, Wasi e Rasool, Kuul e Momin, Ameer ul Momineen Hazrat Ali Ibn e Abi Talib Alahi us Salam . Please reply. anybody can answer this if bhai asif choose not to.
Wassalam
[This message has been edited by Gubber Singh (edited April 06, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Gubber Singh (edited April 07, 2001).]
Asif my brother here is doing a good job..our scholers dont tell us to fight with our fellow muslims..anyways you have love for Imam Hussain and i m glad
[quote]
Originally posted by Asif:
**Unfortunately the attitude of CT Shiraz is the typical shia attitude i have come across more often than not (inlcuding in their most prominent works by authors such as Khomeini)
..it is the fatwa of the Ahle Sunnah ulama since the first years of Islam that anyone who curses or disbelieves in the caliphate of
Hazrat Sayyidina Ashraful Makhlooqaat Ba'd Al Anbiya Abu Bakr as Siddeeq or Hazrat Amir ul Momineen Umar ibn Al Khattaab radhi Allah anhuma is a kaafir without doubt.
(See Abbas, the comments by your co-religionists do not support your own views...but i will give YOU personally the benefit of the doubt....so please continue.)
**
[/quote]
Brother on what bases whas this fatwa issued, would you please enlighten us. Brother to me the question is to belief in their chilapatee is not the main issue here, Did they had the right to declare themselves as the Khaleefa, going against what HOly Prophet gave to Hazrat Ali at Ghadeer-e-Khum. Was Khilafat more important to them then giving ghusal, and praying namaz for the Prophet when he died.
Can you qoute me the instance where the Prophet gave them khilafat and told us if yhou dont believe in it, you will be a kafir, brother i am not a Aalim to debate, but i would really appreciate if you enlighten me wehre does the fatwa come from.
What right do Ahley Sunna Ulema have to declare us Kaafir,
Don't we pray 5 times a day,
Don't we fast in the month of Ramzan.
Don't we read the same Quran.
Don't we pay Zakat?
Don't we perfor Hajj?
When did their Khilafat became Wajib on us
“Today I have perfected your religion and completed my favour upon you, and I was satisfied that Islam be your religion.” (Qur’an 5:3)
Brother this was the Ayat revealed after the event of Ghadeer-e-Khum, this was during the time of the Beloved Prophet, Abu Bakr became Khaleefa after the death of the Prophet, so when did this clause of beliveing in his khilafat became wajib on us. http://www.al-islam.org/ghadir/incident.htm
[This message has been edited by Insaniyat (edited April 07, 2001).]
Here is a hadith of the Holy Prophet P.B.U.H, I had found on Net with the references.
"Verily, I am leaving behind two precious things (thaqalayn) among you: the Book of God and my kindred (`itrah), my household (Ahl alBayt), for indeed, the two will never separate until they come back to me by the Pond (of alKawthar on the Judgement's Day)."
here are four references for the hadith.
(Muslim says Zuhayr ibn Harb and Shujaibn Makhlad narrated to me fromUlayyah that he said: Zuhayr said: narrated to us Ismail ibn Ibrahim, from Abu Hayyan, from Yazid ibn Hayyan, who said: "I, Husayn ibn Sabrah andUmar ibn Muslim went to see Zayd ibn Arqam. When we sat down with him, Husayn said to him, 'O Zayd, you have been greatly fortunate. You have seen the Messenger of Allah, upon whom be Allah's peace and benedictions, heard his speech, fought with him in battles and have prayed behind him. Indeed, O Zayd, you have been enormously fortunate. Narrate to us what you have heard from the Messenger of Allah , may Allah's peace and benedictions be upon him.'
"Zayd said: 'O brother, by God, I have become aged and old and I have forgotten some of what I used to remember from the Messenger of Allah , upon whom be Allah's peace and benedictions. So accept what I narrate to you and as to what I don't, trouble me not regarding it.' Then he said: 'One day the Messenger of Allah , upon whom be Allah's peace and benedictions, addressed us near a pond called Khumm between Makkah and Madinah. He praised God and extolled Him and preached and reminded (us). Then he said, "Lo, O people, I am only a human being and I am about to respond to the messenger of my Lord *. I am leaving behind two precious things (thaqalayn) among you. The first of the two is the Book of Allah. In it is guidance and light. So get hold of the Book of Allah and adhere to it." Then he urged and motivated (us) regarding the Book of Allah . Then he said, "And my Ahl alBayt (family). I urge you to remember God regarding my Ahl alBayt. I urge you to remember God regarding my Ahl alBayt. I urge you to remember God regarding my Ahl alBayt"'" ....
(Sahih Muslim, part 7, Kitab fada'il alSahabah [Maktabat wa Matbaat MuhammadAli Subayh wa Awladuhu: Cairo] pp. 122-123.)
(AlHakim says Narrated to us Abu alHusayn Muhammad ibn Ahmad ibn Tamim alHanzali in Baghdad, from Abu Qallabah Abd alMalik ibn Muhammad alRaqqashi, from Yahya ibn Hammad; also narrated to me Abu Bakr Muhammad ibn Balawayh and Abu Bakr Ahmad ibn Jafar alBazzaz, both of them from Abd Allah ibn Ahmad ibn Hanbal, from his father, from Yahya ibn Hammad; and also narrated to us Abu Nasr Ahmad ibn Suhayl, the faqih of Bukhara, from Salih ibn Muhammad, the hafiz of Baghdad, from Khalaf ibn Salim alMakhrami, from Yahya ibn Hammad; and Yahya ibn Hammad narrated from AbuUwwanah from Sulayman al'A`mash, from Habib ibn Abi Thabit, from Abu alTufayl, from Zayd ibn Arqam, may God be pleased with him, who said: "The Messenger of Allah , may God's peace and benedictions be upon him and his progeny, while returning from his last hajj (hijjat alwada') came down at Ghadir Khumm and ordered (us) towards the big trees, and (the ground) underneath them was swept.
"Then he said, 'I am about to answer the call (of death). Verily, I have left behind two precious things amongst you, one of which is greater than the other. The Book of Allah , the Exalted, and my itrah (kindred). So watch out how you treat these two after me, for verily they will not separate from each other until they come back to me by the side of the Pond.' Then he said 'Verily, Allah , the Almighty and the Glorious, is my master (mawla) and I am the master of every believer (mu'min).' Then he tookAli, may God be pleased with him, by the hand and said, 'This (`Ali) is the master of whomever I am his master. O God, love whoever loves him and be the enemy of his enemy.'"
(AlHakim adds "This hadith is sahih in accordance with the conditions of sihhah laid down by the Shaykhayn (alBukhari and Muslim), although they have not recorded it in its full length."
AlHakim says The first tradition (mentioned above) is supported by this one narrated by Salamah ibn Kuhayl, from Abu alTufayl, which is also sahih according to the requirements of alBukhari and Muslim. Narrated to us Abu Bakr ibn Ishaq and Dalaj ibn Ahmad alSijzi, both of them from Muhammad ibn Ayyub, from al'Azraq ibnAli, from Hassan ibn Ibrahim alKirmani, from Muhammad ibn Salamah ibn Kuhayl, from his father, from Abu al-Tufayl, from Ibn Wathilah that he heard Zayd ibn Arqam, may God be pleased with him, say: "The Messenger of Allah , may Allah 's peace and benedictions be upon him and his progeny, came down at a place between Makkah and Madinah near the trees with five big shades and the people swept the ground under the trees. Then the Messenger of Allah , may God's peace and benediction be upon him and his progeny, began to perform the evening prayer. After the prayer he began to address the people. He praised God and extolled Him, preaching and reminding (us), and said what God wanted him to say. Then he said, 'O people! Verily, I am leaving behind two matters (amrayn) among you if you follow them (the two) you will never go astray. These two are: the Book of God and my ahl albayt, my itrah.' Then he said thrice: 'Do you know that I have more right over the believers (Inni awla bi almu'minin) than they over themselves?' The people said, 'Yes.' Then the Messenger of Allah , may Allah's peace and benedictions be upon him and his progeny said, 'Of whomever I am his master (mawla)Ali also is his master.'"
(al'Imam al-Hafiz Abu Abd Allah alHakim alNaysaburi, alMustadrakala al-Sahihayn [Dar alMarifah li alTibaah wa alNashr: Beirut), vol. iii, pp. 109-110).
(AlHakim says Narrated to us Abu Bakr Muhammad ibn alHusayn ibn Muslim, the faqih of Ray, from Muhammad ibn Ayyub, from Yahya ibn al-Mughirah alSadi, from Jarir ibnAbd alHamid, from alHasan ibn Abd Allah alNakhai, from Muslim ibn Subayh, from Zayd ibn Arqam, may God be pleased with him, who said: "The Messenger of Allah , may Allah's peace and benedictions be upon him and his progeny, said, 'Verily, I leave behind two precious things amongst you: the Book of Allah and my ahl albayt. Verily, the two will never separate until they come back to me by the side of the Pond.'"
(AlHakim says This hadith is sahih al'isnad according to the conditions laid down by the Shaykhayn (alBukhari and Muslim), though they did not record it. (alHakim, op. cit., vol. iii, p. 148
[This message has been edited by Insaniyat (edited April 07, 2001).]*
[quote]
Originally posted by Gubber Singh:
**=============================================
=============================================
they are a creation of british empire so they can divide and rule muslims Just like Quadyanis. Quadyanis believe in First Three khalifas and all of there believes are simmilar to sunnis including namaz except about our prophet(pbuh)which they believe was reincarnated in the form of mirza . they say mohammed (pbuh) was the last prophet but he came back to this world again. I have never heard of fatimees. sorry?
wassalam**
[/quote]
Salam
Gubber pleez stop calling me khatoon( I don't like it) Ok now back to the topic we don't only believe in the first three khalifa's I believe in all four of them (Hazarat Ali (ra) too) I don't realy know if the namaz is the same..do sunni ppl pray (do dua) after namaz cause we don't..And the thing u said about the holy prophet(SAW) is also a false state ment..I'll get back to u later
Allah hafiz
I have been through a comparative study of religion and I'll just put forward what I gathered from a private study.
Firstly, by default we all believe we're right. Sunnis believe they are right, so do Shi'ites. At the end of the day, I believe I am neither of the two or any other, I am a simple plain Muslim because sectarianism is condemned and Allah and Muhammad(sm) gave us one name only "Musalmaan".
When we talk with respect to history, we have many version. We have a Sunni version, a Shi'ite version and a few others too. We have different hadith books and so forth. We can argue a life time without coming onto any conclusions.
Also, history and hadith are works of man. Human beings are authors of history and narrators of hadith. Both are prone to errors and mistakes. What do we do? Shall we do the same with our religion that Jews and Christians did with theirs. Attribute our faith and beliefs on history?
I think we should study and understand Qur'an directly. Thats what I have gathered from all this. If we were to all understand Qur'an, and we were all to call ourselves Muslims, 95% of our problems would be solved. Whether Ali was appointed Caliph or Abu Bakr is as much debatable as anything else. What happened was that Abu Bakr became the first caliph, Umar the second, Usman the third and Ali the fourth. This is a undisputed fact.
As far as qualities and personalities of those went before us, Qur'an expounds,
"And those who came after them say: 'Our Lord! Forgive us, and our brethren who came before us into the Faith, and leave not, in our hearts, rancour (or sense of injury) against those who have believed. Our Lord! Thou art indeed Full of Kindness, Most Merciful.'" Al-Hashr 59:10
On a more frank note, we are Sunnis because we were born Sunnis and Shi'as because we were born Shi'as. We have no other reason. We believe what comes through our scholars and reject others' without any concrete reason whatsoever. We are insecure towards religion because its blind, without reason and not based on Qur'anic understanding and knowledge.
Its about time that we learnt to rise above these differences and became objective and reasonable towards religion.
Best Regards,
M. Omer Iqbal
i hear ya buddy, but i have a feeling that you might be labled as a wahabi by some of our emotional and unreasonable guppies.
[quote]
Originally posted by nomaan:
**i hear ya buddy, but i have a feeling that you might be labled as a wahabi by some of our emotional and unreasonable guppies.
**
[/quote]
come on noman, this guy makes some sense. Wahabhis dont make any sense at all. SO i dont think if there is a slight chance of omar bhai being called wahabi.
peace.
well.. i thought that anyone who said he wasn’t sunni or shia onthis forum ended up being labeled as a wahabi…
I am waiting for someone to call me that. But before anyone does;
DICLAIMER: The author does not attribute himself to any sect whatsoever. Qur'an condemns sectarianism and Allah and Muhammad(sm) gave us one name only. If anyone needs references, do let me know, I'll be more than happy.
Best,
Omer
Shia "AND" sunni religion...Oh c'mon
they r both Muslims and all Muslims are brothers...Full stop!
Look around u carefully u will notice each and every individual has its own belief in one way or the other..but at the end of the day all school of thoughts fall into Islam!
So hold steadfast to the rope of Allah and do not divide amongst urslef"
Luv and Peace
"ME"
having read the debate, i decided to ask one question?
read these verses first:
[12:84] And he turned away from them and said: Alas, my grief for Joseph! And his eyes were whitened with the sorrow that he was suppressing.
[12:85] They said: By Allah, thou wilt never cease remembering Joseph till thy health is ruined or thou art of those who perish!
and read the rest of surah Yousuf. In these verses it implies that P. yaqub was in such grief that his eyes went white and he lost his eye sight (told in the ayaat after these).
These verses and the rest of surah yousef implies that the prohet yaqub mourned the loss of his son. His son was lost for over 25-30 years. - hence implying that there is no limit to mourning.
So where is the verse which says that you cannot mourn more than three days? - alot of you have mentioned this verse.
sad behen aap pareshan mutt hoon, woh queer logic thee.
[quote]
Originally posted by 786sab:
**having read the debate, i decided to ask one question?
read these verses first:
[12:84] And he turned away from them and said: Alas, my grief for Joseph! And his eyes were whitened with the sorrow that he was suppressing.
[12:85] They said: By Allah, thou wilt never cease remembering Joseph till thy health is ruined or thou art of those who perish!
and read the rest of surah Yousuf. In these verses it implies that P. yaqub was in such grief that his eyes went white and he lost his eye sight (told in the ayaat after these).
These verses and the rest of surah yousef implies that the prohet yaqub mourned the loss of his son. His son was lost for over 25-30 years. - hence implying that there is no limit to mourning.
So where is the verse which says that you cannot mourn more than three days? - alot of you have mentioned this verse. **
[/quote]
i just have a couple of points to make.
1) They didn't have the quran!!!! It hadn't been revealed yet.
2) That was a father mourning the loss of his son.
hope this helps.. might be a little too much info too handle, but i sincerely hope it helps.
salaam Nomaan,
1) It doesn't matter if there was Quran or there wasn't. Allah is the greatest and Allah's sunnat never changes. Could you also shed some more light on what you are trying to say here? Are you saying kay os waqat rona jaez thaa or ab nahee?
2) Allah says in Quran " We have sent Hidayat (guidance) for mankind". Allah's nabbi/rasool/imams are not part-time guiders. Every amal of theirs is hidayat. Chahay rona, hunsna, khaana, peena ya jang karna.....
dear dont worry what these people think
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
bayhosh logo ko uthaya nahi jaa sakta aasaani say..bus hum to yehi kahaingay k..
Har gham ko bhula dengay..har yaad mita dengay
Zehra tere bacho ki bus yaad manani hai