Shi'a Religion : Open Discussion - Questions Are Welcome

Society Religion & Philosophy
121

[quote]
Originally posted by Nargis:
Yeah I heard that matam was founded by Yazeed ....and it it true that shia's do not believe in the khalifa's after the Holy Prophet(SAW) other than Hazarat Ali(ra) I believe in all the Khalifa's after the Prophet(SAW)...Sheraz i understand it but do not get how i am helping the munafiqs...We do sog to but not in that way...and i think what shia's do is totally wrong
[/quote]

============================================
nargis khatoon you made a very funny remark about matam founded by yazid (l.a). Bibi nargis may i ask you who founded crying (just normal crying)? was it invented by somebody as well?
crying and matam are natural things. when you are sad about something you cry and depending upon the level of sadness and sorrow you cry or beat your chest(or atleast you feel like crying or beating chest). shaadat e muzloom a.s is such a big event that if you have think about it without the blindfold of hatered you will cry too.
Let me tell you the kind of matam yazid (l.a) did after shahadat e muzloom(a.s). he brought the heads of all the martyrs in his palace, and he poke his stick into imam e muzloom's head. he slapped imam e muzloom's beloved daughter for crying( he didn't cry, instead he tried to stop them from crying. like certain people still do it to this day)
he took away the hijab from rasool's (pbuh)ahlulbait. he was drinking alcohal while he had all the martyrs heads in a tray next to him. is this what you were referring as matam.

As for as munda panjabi's comment: matam and crying started from the day when imam husain a.s was born. both sunni and shia have this reported in books that when our Rasool(pbuh) saw his grandson for the first time he cried and told his family about what is going to happen to him in karbala. Janab e Zainab(a.s) was the first one to setup a majlis and said zikr of karbala.
I hope this clears some confusion.
what I don't understand is that why does our matam and crying bothers everybody????

to the person who asked why after 1400 years we still cry and talk about it? answer is simple we do it because YOU HAVE FORGOTTEN ABOUT IT.

narjis khatoon would you please elobrate on kind of soog you do for mazloom e karbala. I will be waiting for your answer.

Our next door neighbour (whabbi) was married on the day of Aushura about 10 years ago.

wassalam

122

[quote]
Originally posted by raptor:
**

Also would you be so kind as to provide me with the location of this quote in the Holy Quran.

aslamualaikum.**
[/quote]

Brother its the 33 Ayat of 33 Surah of Quran

123

narjis khatoon I just found this article on a sunni web site by jamiat e ulema. please read it carefuly and then tell me what kind of soog you keep on aushura.

TENTH OF MUHARRAM

It is therefore absolutely clear that the tenth of Muharram is not a day to observe as the martyrdom of Sayyidina Husain (R. A.). It's significance lies solely in what has been explained in the Ahadith. Ibn Abbas (R.A.) narrates that Rasulullah (Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam) came to Madina and found the Jews fasted on that day of Aashura. Hence he enquired of them, 'What is the significance of this day on which you fast?' They replied: 'This is a great day. On this day Allah Ta'ala saved Moosa (AS) and his people and drowned Firoun and his nation. Thus Moosa (AS) fasted on this day as a token of thanksgiving, therefore we also fast on this day.' Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alaihi Wasallam) remarked, 'We are more worthy of Moosa (AS) and closer to him than you. ' Thereafter Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alaihi Wasallam) fasted on this day and ordered his companions to do the same. (Sahih Muslim vol. 1 pg.359)

think why these ulema's are trying to hide the martyrdom of Imam Husain(a.s). could it be because they know that "BAAT NIKLAY GI TOO BOHAT DOOOR TALAK JAIY GI". or is there some other reason. anybody??????

124

Brother Insaniyat. I had asked Brother Gubber to provide me with a location in the Quran where it says “allah(s.t)has kept all kind of rijs (sin) away from ahlulbaith.”

The location you gave me was the 33 ayat of the 33rd surah which reads :
033.033
YUSUFALI: And stay quietly in your houses, and make not a dazzling display, like that of the former Times of Ignorance; and establish regular Prayer, and give
regular Charity; and obey Allah and His Messenger. And Allah only wishes to remove all abomination from you, ye members of the Family, and to make you pure
and spotless.
PICKTHAL: And stay in your houses. Bedizen not yourselves with the bedizenment of the Time of Ignorance. Be regular in prayer, and pay the poor-due, and
obey Allah and His messenger. Allah’s wish is but to remove uncleanness far from you, O Folk of the Household, and cleanse you with a thorough cleansing.
SHAKIR: And stay in your houses and do not display your finery like the displaying of the ignorance of yore; and keep up prayer, and pay the poor-rate, and obey
Allah and His Messenger. Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House! and to purify you a (thorough) purifying.
"

If you want to readup on this ayat its meaning, I’d suggest reading Syed Maududi’s commentary. It makes a lot of sense and it will tell you what the ayat really means.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/maududi/mau33.html

125

By matam I meant the sog thing for Hazrat Imam Hussain(ra) We just try not to do much kushi things in that month because of the dreadful incident..and do a quiet type of sog..koi bhi is waqia ko bhool nahi sakta..I really don't think this is a good way to keep it alive..Does it not say in the Holy Quran that u should not do sog for more than 2 or 3 days unless it is a wife that is another thing...And all shia's don't believe in the matam.

126

**
THE AIMS AND OBJECTIVES OF IMAM HUSAIN'S STAND
**

**
What was the course of Imam Husain's (a.s) revolution? What reasons prompted him to initiate such a great and unmatched upspring? **

Did he intended to overthrow the Yazid regime? Did he wish to end the Umayyid dynasty? These and such other questions keep cropping in the mind and everyone wants to know the satisfactory replies, specially the mourner of Imam Husain (a.s) are more eager in this regard.

When Imam Husain (a.s) was preparing to leave on.his longest journey, he bid adieu to the grave of his grandfather, the Holy Prophet (S.A.W). Then he wrote a legacy addressing his brother Mohammed Bin Hanfiyya in which he explained the aims and objectives of his uprising. We are quoting an extract from the same legacy hereunder. He wrote thus:
**
" And surely the aim of my stand is not inspired by vain exultation and it is also not for the quest of kingdom, Neither it is to cause dissession and corruption nor it is to wrong anybody unjustly."
**
These sentences of Imam Husain (a.s) are sufficent enough to beat all the criticisms and accuasation levelled against him by the enemies of Islam and the enemies of Imam Husain (a.s).) Now the question arises if these were not the motives of Imam's uprising than why did he took stand? What were the aims of his uprising? Thus continued Imam Husain (a.s)
**
" The purpose of my stand is the reformation of my grandfather's nation. I intend to enjoin goodness and forbid evil. I want to emulate my grandfather, the Holy Prophet (s.a.w)andmy father Alt Bin Abu Talib (Peace be upon him). Whosoever accepts me by accepting the truth, then Allah is higher than the truth. And whosoever rejects me then I willbearpatiently until Allah adjudges between me and them and He is the best Judge."
**

In this legacy the chief of martyrs has explained three purposes for his stand:-

1) The reformation of his grandfather's nation.
2) Enjoining Good and Forbidding Evil.
3) Renewal and Revival of the tradition of the Holy Prophet (s.a.w) and Hazarat Ali (a.s).

These purposes are not different than each other rather these are complementary to each other because, nation can be reformed only by means of bidding good and forbidding evil. The tradition and path of the Holy Prophet and Hazarat Ah is goodness and anything other than that is evil. Some facts are stated by Hazrat Imam Husain (a.s) in his other sermons and letters but in other words. When he reached Mecca he wrote a letter to the people of Basra thus;
**
"I invite you towards the Book of Allah and the Sunnat of the Holy Prophet (s.a.w) because indeed sunnat has been mutilated and hereby is revived. Whoever will accept my words, then I will guide him towards the straight path". (Tarikhe-Tabari vol.7, pg.240)
**
In another letter to the people of Kufa he wrote thus :
**
"By God, Imam is the one who acts on the commands of the Book, deals with Justice, followed the truth and reserves his self for the pleasure of Allah."
**
These words of Imam imply that only he can be an Imam who possesses these characteristics and the one who does not possess them cannotbe an Imam. Hence Yazid Bin Muawiyah has had no right to the caliphate. When he reached at 'Baiza', a place near Karbala and was beseiged by the contigent of Hur, then he addressed his men and the army of Hur in these words:
**
"The one who sees a tyrant King who is making unlawful as lawful, violating the pledge (of God), opposing the Sunnat of the Holy Prophet ruling on the servant of Allah with sins and oppression. And by his words and actions does not oppose the King and does not strive to reform the circumstances, then it behove Allah to hurl him into Hell alongwith the King."
**
Then he continued about the Yazidi regime thus,
**
"They have shun the obedience of Allah and acted following shaitan. They are instigating commotion and dismissing the divine laws. They are expending from the public exchequer for their selfish end and are changing the prohibited things to permissible thing."
**
In the first sermon at Karbala he spoke thus:
**
"Can't you see that the truth is not followed and the falsehood is not shunned.? In such circumstances a believer should desire to meet Allah. Surely I regard death as nothing but an honour and life with Oppressors as anything but disgrace." Tarike-Tabari, vol.-7pg.300)
**
Nevertheless the unique and unparalleled revolution of Imam Husain (a.s) which began in Rajab 60 A.H. and apparently ended with the glorious martyrdom of Imam Husain (a.s), his kith, kin and companions. The pupose of this revolution was to revive and rejuvenate Islam, (which was distorted and Yazidi regime wanted to annihilate it and also to reform the nation of the Holy Prophet (s.a.w). Some of the Sunni Traditionalists have added a phrase of 'and on the path of Khulafa Rashedeen'. It is an addition made in the reign of Umayyid dynasty because the term 'Khulafa-Rashedeen' was coined by the Historians and Scholastic Theologions of that time because this term was not in use at the time of Imam Husain (a.s.).

Secondly H. Ali (a.s.) himself was included among Khulafa-Rashedeen and hence it seems utterly ridiculous that I will follow H. Ali(a.s.) and Khulafa Rashedeen,

Thirdly Imam Husain (a.s.) was critical about the behavioural pattern of the caliphs, then how he could have desired to follow their paths ?

127

[quote]
Originally posted by raptor:
** Brother Insaniyat. I had asked Brother Gubber to provide me with a location in the Quran where it says "allah(s.t)has kept all kind of rijs (sin) away from ahlulbaith."

The location you gave me was the 33 ayat of the 33rd surah which reads :
033.033
"

**
[/quote]

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please look again in sura a ahzab ayah 33.

In its historical context the ayah 33 of suratul Ahzab applies to those
members of the Ahlul Bayt who were present then and with the Holy Prophet
under the cloak when the ayah was revealed. A large body of ahadeeth from
the Sunni sources confirm this.
Wassalam.

128

[quote]
Originally posted by Nargis:
By matam I meant the sog thing for Hazrat Imam Hussain(ra) We just try not to do much kushi things in that month because of the dreadful incident..and do a quiet type of sog..koi bhi is waqia ko bhool nahi sakta..I really don't think this is a good way to keep it alive..Does it not say in the Holy Quran that u should not do sog for more than 2 or 3 days unless it is a wife that is another thing...And all shia's don't believe in the matam.
[/quote]

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Nargis khatoon I don't know what quiet type of sog you are talking about.did i not tell you my next door whabbi neighbour got married on 10 moharrum. also your comment that it is not the right way to keep it alive.well....
please please read my posting earlier when i quoted a site from (sunni)jamiat e ulema suggesting that 10th of moharrum has no significance because of shahdat e muzloom husain(a.s). is it not a full blown try to hide the martyrdom of karbala. your aalims don't even acknowledge it as an important event in islam. please please tell me the right way to keep it alive.
as far as your reference from quran regarding sog not more than 3 days. don't forget we are doing soog for quran e natiq not an ordinary person. didn't quran described about nabi yaqob crying for his son nabi yousuf till he became blind. did anywhere in quran allah suggested nabi yaqob commited biddah???
also you said there are many shia who don't believe in matam. khatoon i can show you many muslim who don't believe in allah. they drink commit zina and hurt other muslims.

wassalam

129

Brother Gubber.

I would like you to go to this website and read the whole page.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/maududi/mau33.html

You will find the “correct” historical context of ayat 33 here, assuming that Syed Maududi’s comentary of the Holy Quran would satisfy you. If you still have any questions, please quote the historical context you are looking at.

Thankyou.

130

[quote]
Originally posted by analyze it:
Lashkare Abbas, Yo did not comment on my references about shia beliefs about alteration and incompletion of Koran as yet?
I can post more references if you need?
[/quote]

Brother Analyze It, I have been trying to get find what you said on the net, but I can't get one Shia site that said that. I did a search too, but all the sites were Sunni or Wahabi. So I dunno about the credibility of your info. Anyways, this saturday I am meeting this Marja'a friend of mine, and I'll ask him.
But I seriously think that it is fabricated. I have been taught this in religious school throughout my life that the Qur'an is the only Asmaani Kitaab that has not been changed and hence is a living miracle.

Shah-e-Mardan Sher-e-Yazdan,
Quwwat-e-Parwardigar,
Lafatah illa ALI,
La Saif ila Zulfiqar
========================
131

Salam.....Sheraz sorry I did not read ur post b4 u really have a bad language..Hazarat Abu Bakar(ra) had the courage to go with the Prophet(SAW) when there were people out there to kill Him (SAW) ..Prophet (SAW) asked Abu Bakar(ra) for advice when needed..and he was the first Man to believe the prophet with out asking a single question... He was the best at giving sacrifices.. he gave gave his 13(or very small daughter.there is no sure age) Hazarat Aisha to the Prophet (SAW) who was old then.
And All the prophets were elected by ALLAH just like Hazarat Ali(ra)

132

Salam..Gubber!!..where do u get ur info from....I don't think any thing u said about "Qadianis" was true..u r talking noncence "British Empire"

[This message has been edited by Nargis (edited April 02, 2001).]

133

[quote]
Originally posted by Nargis:
**Salam..Gubber!!..where do u get ur info from....I don't think any thing u said about "Qadianis" was true..u r talking noncence "British Empire"

[This message has been edited by Nargis (edited April 02, 2001).]**
[/quote]

Nargis khatoon, I had some very good friends during school and college days who were qadyanis. I spent lots of time with their families. I saw them praying, I had many friendly discussions with them about their beliefs. you can ask this info from any qadyani and he will confirm it. except the prophet issue they are just like sunnis.
when do you think qadyani religeon started??? was it not during the british rule, just like ismaily thing?????
Wassalam

134

Salam.. Gubber sahib....By the grace of Allah I am an Ahmadi and I am telling u those things r totally wrong.
So what if it did...promised messiah's first book before he even claimed to be messiah was against christianity... the time when muslims were becoming cristian very fast and the cristians said that only in some years they will have everyone in India a cristian...he was the only one who was against them and wrote a book.. in support of Islam..how could he be with the british when he was against them and he was introducing a non-christian religion.. I have heard alot of bakwas here about ahmadis from u poeple.

135

Nargis Khatoon, ever heard of DIVIDE AND RULE.
when british could not convert majority of muslims, and they saw that muslims are the only threat to their occupation they used their plan B.
Wassalam.

136

Nergis Khatoon, who do you believe was the khalifa after our nabi mohd(pbuh)
wassalam

137

Just one more lil question.

Did Hazrat Ali's (RA) sword "Zulfiqar", come from the heavens or something, meanning it was not made by a normal blacksmith?

138

salam.. I believe that Hazarat Abu Bakar (ra)was The first Khalifa after the Holy prophet Muhammad(SAW)and he was appointed by Allah.

139

[quote]
Originally posted by DonJuan DeMarco:
**Just one more lil question.

Did Hazrat Ali's (RA) sword "Zulfiqar", come from the heavens or something, meanning it was not made by a normal blacksmith? **
[/quote]

Yes, in jung e ouhad when muslims were being defeated all the muslims except few (may be 4 or 5) deserted allah's rasool and fled the Ouhad. at that time hazrat ali a.s broke his sword while protecting RASOOL(pbuh). seeing that our nabi raised his hand and jibrail brought a sword for hazrat ali a.s. this sword is called zulfikhar. some of the sahabas fled so far away that they returned after 3 days. among them are some very famous names.

140

[quote]
Originally posted by Nargis:
salam.. I believe that Hazarat Abu Bakar (ra)was The first Khalifa after the Holy prophet Muhammad(SAW)and he was appointed by Allah.
[/quote]

Nrgis khatoon like i said ahmedi's are a subsect of sunnism I don't know why were you denying it earlier. "....By the grace of Allah I am an Ahmadi and I am telling u those things r totally wrong."
can you please shed some more light on your claim that "and he was appointed by Allah."
give me some solid reasoning please. possibly some hadees which are accepted by bothe shia and sunni.
god bless you
wassalam