Shi'a Religion : Open Discussion - Questions Are Welcome

Society Religion & Philosophy
1

I am very sorry to say this, but I have realized that Shi’as and Sunnis have many misconceptions amongst them… I would like to clear some of those.

I would like this thread to be an educational one, and please refrain from showing emotions and mudslinging.

All questions about Shi’as and Sunnis are welcomed. I think I can answer most questions about the Shia’s, and I’ll do my best to answer questions about Sunnis too. Any and Every help is welcomed.

Shah-e-Mardan Sher-e-Yazdan,
Quwwat-e-Parwardigar,
Lafatah illa ALI,
La Saif ila Zulfiqar
========================
2

This is from my earlier post

This is for my Shia brothers...
Sunnis DID NOT support YAZID nor do they do now (Dunno about Sipah-e-Sahaba... That's a wierd bunch, but I am talking about the more prominent Barelvis .. I think)
Sunnis were just like Shia's at the time. No Sunnis or even Shia's for that matter came and helped the Imam out except for a few. It's all about the power. Everyone was subdued by Yazid's power, so it is unfair to blame the Sunnis!

For my Sunni brothers...
Shia's do not HATE any Sahabas or anything like that. We have great respect for them. The problem arises when Sahabas are respected and talked about more than the Prophet's progeny. We believe that the Prophet's progeny has a higher status than them. That's it. No mudslinging or anything. Sure some of them behaved in a way that they shouldn't have with the Ahlul Bait, which they are accountable to Allah for. We should not fight among each other for the acts of the past.

As far as practice is concerned Shia's have a religious opinion and their fiqh which they have also interpreted through the Qur'an, Hadith and the sayings of the Ahlul-Bait. So it is wrong to prosecute them for having a religious interpretation based on the Qur'an and Sunnah. Just like the Sunnis have four fiqhs, Shia's also have their interpretations!

I hope this clarifies some misconceptions. 

Shah-e-Mardan Sher-e-Yazdan,
Quwwat-e-Parwardigar,
Lafatah illa ALI,
La Saif ila Zulfiqar
========================
3

Abu Bakr (RAA) was appointed to be the Imam During the prophets Liftime (during his last years). He led 70 prayers during Prophets lifetime. Abu Bakr (RAA) was handpicked by the Prophet. In those days the Imam was supposed to be the leader. How can one say that the Prohets relatives had a greater right over it when it was the prophets own decision?
I am sory if I am wrong anywhere because all the things stated here is based on what I have heard..Plz try to clear my misconceptions...
Thanx

[This message has been edited by Beatle_ki_wapsi (edited March 27, 2001).]

4

[quote]
Originally posted by Beatle_ki_wapsi:
*Abu Bakr (RAA) was appointed to be the Imam During the prophets Liftime (during his last years). He led 70 prayers during Prophets lifetime. Abu Bakr (RAA) was handpicked by the Prophet. In those days the Imam was supposed to be the leader. How can one say that the Prohets relatives had a greater right over it when it was the prophets own decision?
I am sory if I am wrong anywhere because all the things stated here is based on what I have heard..Plz try to clear my misconceptions...
Thanx
*

[/quote]

My information suggests quite the contrary, If you do some research on the last Sermon of the Prophet, you'll see that he received a revelation saying that if he doesnot perform this last deed, it would be as if he didn't convey Allah's message.
Then the Prophet picked Hazrat Ali up with his arms and his armpits (I think...) and said, "Man Kunto Maula, Fa Haza Aliyun Maula"
Who ever's master I am, Ali is his master. Then he asked everyone to swear allegiance to Ali, even Uthman, and Abu Bakar came there and congratulated him.
Then the Prophet said, "Akmalto Lakum Deenokum Waliyedeen" - Today your religion stands completed.

I have never heard of the prophet giving the Imamat to Hazrat Abu Bakar (RA)

Everything I have mentioned above is in my own words... I'll try to get a link for you

Shah-e-Mardan Sher-e-Yazdan,
Quwwat-e-Parwardigar,
Lafatah illa ALI,
La Saif ila Zulfiqar
========================
5

http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter3/2.html
**
“O Apostle! Deliver what has been sent down to you from your Lord; and if you don’t do it, you have not delivered His message (at all); and Allah will protect you from the people …” (Quran 5:67).
**

**
The Messenger of Allah declared: “It seems the time approached when I shall be called away (by Allah) and I shall answer that call. I am leaving for you two precious things and if you adhere both of them,you will never go astray after me. They are the Book of Allah and my Ahlul-Bayt. The two shall never separate from each other until they come to me by the Pool (of Paradise).”

Then the Messenger of Allah continued: “Do I not have more right over the believers than what they have over themselves?” People cried and answered: “Yes, O’ Messenger of God.” Then Prophet (PBUH) held up the hand of Ali and said: “Whoever I am his leader (Mawla), Ali is his leader (Mawla). O’ God, love those who love him, and be hostile to those who are hostile to him.”
**

These are all from SUNNI References… PLEASE.. CHECK THEM OUT.

This sums everything up. God loves those who love Ali, and I know for a fact that Sunnis love him too, it’s just that they give Sahabas more respect than Ali.

Ali.. in the above verse has pretty much been described as a criterion for being loved by Allah!

Shah-e-Mardan Sher-e-Yazdan,
Quwwat-e-Parwardigar,
Lafatah illa ALI,
La Saif ila Zulfiqar
========================
6

Salaams

I have a few questions about the shia religion.

Are all the Imams appointed by God?...I have even heard that the Imams had some sort of a "stamp" on their bodies, which is suppose to be the proof of Imamat.

Also was Hazrat Ali capable of performing miracles?...if yes, please state a few.

thanks

7

[quote]
Originally posted by DonJuan DeMarco:
**Salaams

I have a few questions about the shia religion.

Are all the Imams appointed by God?...I have even heard that the Imams had some sort of a "stamp" on their bodies, which is suppose to be the proof of Imamat.

Also was Hazrat Ali capable of performing miracles?...if yes, please state a few.

thanks **
[/quote]

Well in the case of Hazrat Ali, as proven through my earlier post he was pretty much appointed by Allah...(Allah commanded the prophet...)

After that each Imam appointed the other. Imams did have Allah's raza (HIS permission in a sense, to appoint the other) because an Imam would never do anything which is not Allah's will.

Imams had the same restrictions on them, that the prophet had... for example. Imams did not have lavish dinners.. stuff that is called (Tark-e-Aula).. For example.. we can step on ants, because we can't be bothered to look for them everywhere... but it was against the status of the Prophet and the Imams to do that.

As far as miracles are concerned, I don't think so... (more like I don't remember having heard of it).. so No... (as far as my knowledge is concerned).
It is true though that Imams did possess ilm-e-ghaib, knowledge of everything in the future.
For example.. during Battle of Siffin (or Jamal... don't remember).. some guy came up to Hazrat Ali and said, "My brother is really sick, but he really wanted to be with you in this battle" and Hazrat Ali said "I can see till the day of Qayamat, who is with me and who is not"

As far as stamps are concerned, I have no knowledge of that, so according to my knowledge I would say no, they did not have any stamps on their body.

I hope that explains it 

Shah-e-Mardan Sher-e-Yazdan,
Quwwat-e-Parwardigar,
Lafatah illa ALI,
La Saif ila Zulfiqar
========================

[This message has been edited by Lashkar-e-Abbas (edited March 27, 2001).]
8

Lashkar,
Thankyou for keeping it simple. I believe where we differ is your version of the last sermon.
You say that "I leave you the Quran and Ahl-e-bait". I say "I leave you the Quran and the SUnna".

The whole episode of picking Hazrat Ali up is supposedly fabricated and i will do mo research on it.

The appointment of Hazrat Ali in Ghadir-e-Khum (sp?) was not as a Khalifa but because he suffered some loses before that event and that was to re-itterate the Prophets faith in him even after the setbacks in the battle (which battle and where i will get back to you on that). This is what i have read and heard. You may be right in stating your version and allah knows best.
Let me do some more research. Sheraz sent me some nice refrences on this subject and I am still looking in to it so bear with me brother.

9

[quote]
Originally posted by Wadi:
**Lashkar,
Thankyou for keeping it simple. I believe where we differ is your version of the last sermon.
You say that "I leave you the Quran and Ahl-e-bait". I say "I leave you the Quran and the SUnna".

The whole episode of picking Hazrat Ali up is supposedly fabricated and i will do mo research on it.

The appointment of Hazrat Ali in Ghadir-e-Khum (sp?) was not as a Khalifa but because he suffered some loses before that event and that was to re-itterate the Prophets faith in him even after the setbacks in the battle (which battle and where i will get back to you on that). This is what i have read and heard. You may be right in stating your version and allah knows best.
Let me do some more research. Sheraz sent me some nice refrences on this subject and I am still looking in to it so bear with me brother.**
[/quote]

Brother wadi,
I suggest checking out the link, it has references to Sunni sources. That is why I put it up. It would be stupid to give you Shia reference when you don't believe in that. That's like explaining the word "GOOD" by using "GOOD"

Anyways, If you find anything contrary to my findings please do send them to me.
Thanks.

Shah-e-Mardan Sher-e-Yazdan,
Quwwat-e-Parwardigar,
Lafatah illa ALI,
La Saif ila Zulfiqar
========================
10

No no no. The ashaabi were waiting in the mosque for Muhammed (SAW) to lead the prayers. Abu Bakr was ordered to lead the prayers since Mohammed(SAW) was in no physical condition to lead the prayers. He did prey in the mosque but only after making Abi Bakr the Imam. After the prayers, Our Prophet(SAW) gave another khutbah and then was helped by ashaba to Bibi Ayesha's place where He(SAW) expired.

11

This sermon was delivered on the Ninth day of Dhul al Hijjah 10 A.H. in the 'Uranah valley of Mount Arafat.

After praising, and thanking God, he said:

"O People, listen well to my words, for I do not know whether, after this year, I shall ever be amongst you again. Therefore listen to what I am saying to you very carefully and take these words to those who could not be present today.

O People, just as you regard this month, this day, this city as Sacred, so regard the life and property of every Muslim as a sacred trust. Return the goods entrusted to you to their rightful owners. Treat others justly so that no one would be unjust to you. Remember that you will indeed meet your LORD, and that HE will indeed reckon your deeds. God has forbidden you to take usury (riba), therefore all riba obligation shall henceforth be waived. Your capital , however, is yours to keep. You will neither inflict nor suffer inequity. God has judged that there shall be no riba and that all the riba due to Abbas ibnAbd al Muttalib shall henceforth be waived.

Every right arising out of homicide in pre-Islamic days is henceforth waived and the first such right that I waive is that arising from the murder of Rabiah ibn al Harith ibnAbd al Muttalib.

O Men, the Unbelievers indulge in tampering with the calendar in order to make permissible that which God forbade, and to forbid that which God has made permissible. With God the months are twelve in number. Four of them are sacred, three of these are successive and one occurs singly between the months of Jumada and Sha`ban.** Beware of the devil, for the safety of your religion. He has lost all hope that he will ever be able to lead you astray in big things, so beware of following him in small things.**

O People, it is true that you have certain rights over your women, but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under God's trust and with His permission. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Treat your women well and be kind to them, for they are your partners and committed helpers. It is your right and they do not make friends with anyone of whom you do not approve, as well as never to be unchaste...

O People, listen to me in earnest, worship God (The One Creator of the Universe), perform your five daily prayers (Salah), fast during the month of Ramadan, and give your financial obligation (zakah) of your wealth. Perform Hajj if you can afford to.

All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over a black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly. Do not, therefore, do injustice to yourselves.

Remember, one day you will appear before God (The Creator) and you will answer for your deeds. So beware, do not stray from the path of righteousness after I am gone.

O People, no prophet or messenger will come after me and no new faith will be born. Reason well, therefore, O People, and understand words which I convey to you.** I am leaving you with the Book of God (the Quraan) and my Sunnah (the life style and the behavioral mode of the Prophet), if you follow them you will never go astray. **

All those who listen to me shall pass on my words to others and those to others again; and may the last ones understand my words better than those who listen to me directly. Be my witness O God, that I have conveyed your message to your people.

12

I think you are getting it mixed up brother zmaan.
The Imam that you are talking about is Imam for Namaaz (Prayer Leader)... The one that we are talking about is the Imam of the Ummah (Leader of the Ummah after the demise of the Prophet)

Brother Wadi,
Can you please post a link and sources (books) for that... Cuzz that might have been fabricated.

The version that I gave was from Sunni sources. (You are probably wondering why I am emphasising this soo much)

Shah-e-Mardan Sher-e-Yazdan,
Quwwat-e-Parwardigar,
Lafatah illa ALI,
La Saif ila Zulfiqar
========================

[This message has been edited by Lashkar-e-Abbas (edited March 27, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Lashkar-e-Abbas (edited March 27, 2001).]
13

http://islamicity.com/Mosque/lastserm.HTM

thats the problem. shias say that this is fabricated. we sunnis say it isn’t..

14

This is where the stalemate arises. That is when you go into books of hadith and find it there… like I said.. I still need some book sources. They don’t have any posted on their site.

Here are some for the one that I posted.. and they are all SUnni refernces

Some of the Sunni references:
(1)** Sahih Tirmidhi, v2, p298, v5, p63**
(2) Sunan Ibn Maja, v1, pp 12,43
(3) Khasa’is, by al-Nisa’i, pp 4,21
(4) al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v2, p129, v3, pp 109-110,116,371
(5) Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, pp 84,118,119,152,330, v4, pp 281,368,370,
372,378, v5, pp 35,347,358,361,366,419 (from 40 chains of narrators)
(6) Fada’il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Hanbal, v2, pp 563,572
(7) Majma’ al-Zawa’id, by al-Haythami, v9, p103 (from several transmitters)
(8) Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhr al-Razi, v12, pp 49-50
(9) Tafsir al-Durr al-Manthur, by al-Hafiz Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, v3, p19
(10) Tarikh al-Khulafa, by al-Suyuti, pp 169,173
(11) al-Bidayah wal-Nihayah, by Ibn Kathir, v3, p213, v5, p208
(12) Usdul Ghabah, by Ibn Athir, v4, p114
(13) Mushkil al-Athar, by al-Tahawi, v2, pp 307-308
(14) Habib al-Siyar, by Mir Khand, v1, part 3, p144
(15) Sawaiq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, p26
(16) al-Isabah, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, v2, p509; v1, part1, p319,
v2, part1, p57, v3, part1, p29, v4, part 1, pp 14,16,143
(17) Tabarani, who narrated from companions such as Ibn Umar, Malik Ibn
al-Hawirath, Habashi Ibn Junadah, Jari, Sa’d Ibn Abi Waqqas,
Anas Ibn Malik, Ibn Abbas, Amarah,Buraydah,…
(18) Tarikh, by al-Khatib Baghdadi, v8, p290
(19) Hilyatul Awliya’, by al-Hafiz Abu Nu’aym, v4, p23, v5, pp26-27
(20) al-Istiab, by Ibn Abd al-Barr, Chapter of word “ayn” (Ali), v2, p462
(21) Kanzul Ummal, by al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, v6, pp 154,397
(22) al-Mirqat, v5, p568
(23) al-Riyad al-Nadirah, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, v2, p172
(24) Dhaka’ir al-Uqba, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, p68
(25) Faydh al-Qadir, by al-Manawi, v6, p217
(26) Yanabi’ al-Mawaddah, by al-Qudoozi al-Hanafi, p297
… And hundreds more. Please see part 3 for more classified references
(traditionists, historians, and commentators).

Sorry… this is long… but I thought it was necessary

Shah-e-Mardan Sher-e-Yazdan,
Quwwat-e-Parwardigar,
Lafatah illa ALI,
La Saif ila Zulfiqar
========================


[This message has been edited by Lashkar-e-Abbas (edited March 27, 2001).]
15

Lashkar for me the problem is more of a political one. Is Political Power in Islam handed down from father-son? Or is it more a matter of merit? I know that prophethood has been passed along family lines but since Muhammad (PBUH) was the last prophet and no prophet will come after him. Is the Imamat a necessity?
I have no affinity for the Ummayad dynasty and the progeny of Abu Sufyaan. The historical books i have read state the Shiaism arose to counter the Arab-Nationalistic Attitudes of Muawwiyah and Yazid. The people of persia to counter this threat saw an alternative in the Prophets Grandsons.

That is one argument i have heard.

What do you think about it?

16

Thanks for the sources I will definately look 'em up.

17

[quote]
Originally posted by Wadi:
*Lashkar for me the problem is more of a political one. Is Political Power in Islam handed down from father-son? Or is it more a matter of merit? I know that prophethood has been passed along family lines but since Muhammad (PBUH) was the last prophet and no prophet will come after him. Is the Imamat a necessity?
*

[/quote]

Brother Imamat is not a political post. As a matter of fact it is quite the opposite. You see in Islam, religion and government go hand in hand. The Caliphs were supposed to ensure the practice of religion freely. Imamat ideally should have been an aspect of the Caliphs.(Just like at the time of the Prophet). The Caliphs should have been spritual leaders too. When this did not happen people went to Hazrat Ali to seek guidance in religious matters and hence the Imamat as a seperate entity.
As far as political power is concerned. As I said above it is closely linked to religion and only a person who knows Islam to the core is qualified to practice the post. Shias believe that no once comprehended the Qur'an and the Sunnah as well as the The Prophets progeny.

[quote]

**
I have no affinity for the Ummayad dynasty and the progeny of Abu Sufyaan. The historical books i have read state the Shiaism arose to counter the Arab-Nationalistic Attitudes of Muawwiyah and Yazid. The people of persia to counter this threat saw an alternative in the Prophets Grandsons.

That is one argument i have heard.

What do you think about it?**
[/quote]

I have never heard about that... As far as I know, Shiaism didn't just arise. Shiaism was there from the advent of Islam. Infact if you ask a Shia, that is the way Islam was intended by the Prophet. Every now and again we see the Prophet saying things like "Ali, you and your Shia (follower) will be successful on the day of Qiyamat" (Again ... this is in my own words)
"Ana Madinatul Ilm WaAliyun Babuha" I am the city of knowledge and Ali is the Gate

The Prophet was laying the foundation for quidance after his demise. He wanted people to seek guidance from Ali.

I suggest reading the book Asl-e-Usool-e-Shi'a

Very Informative.

Shi'aism started becoming a seperate entity soon after the demise of the Prophet.

Shah-e-Mardan Sher-e-Yazdan,
Quwwat-e-Parwardigar,
Lafatah illa ALI,
La Saif ila Zulfiqar
========================

[This message has been edited by Lashkar-e-Abbas (edited March 27, 2001).]
18

[quote]

After that each Imam appointed the other. Imams did have Allah's raza (HIS permission in a sense, to appoint the other) because an Imam would never do anything which is not Allah's will.

It is true though that Imams did possess ilm-e-ghaib, knowledge of everything in the future.
For example.. during Battle of Siffin (or Jamal... don't remember).. some guy came up to Hazrat Ali and said, "My brother is really sick, but he really wanted to be with you in this battle" and Hazrat Ali said "I can see till the day of Qayamat, who is with me and who is not"

As far as stamps are concerned, I have no knowledge of that, so according to my knowledge I would say no, they did not have any stamps on their body.

I hope that explains it

**
[/quote]

Brother Lashkar-e-Abbas, when you say the Imams were appointed by the previous Imam, but through Allah's Raza, how did they come to know Allah's Raza, I mean did they see some indication of it in a dream, or through any other medium?...

Also are u absolutely sure all the Imams possessed Ilm-ul-ghaib (knowledge of the future)? This is an extremly extremly strong word brother. I am saying this because every Imam died an unnatural death, and especially after Hazrat Imam Hussain, every single Imam died due to poisoning. So wouldn't it be a lil illogical to eat the same food, that you are sure is poisonous, but still eat and die?
I don't know brother, you might have some explaination for it, but to me it seems somewhat illogical.

Brother, the purpose of my querries is purely educational, they are by no means intended to be offensive. Also if Brother Lashkar-e-Abbas, is unable to answer any questions I urge some other knowledgable souls to provide some knowledge.

thanks

19

[quote]
Originally posted by DonJuan DeMarco:
**
Also are u absolutely sure all the Imams possessed Ilm-ul-ghaib (knowledge of the future)? This is an extremly extremly strong word brother. I am saying this because every Imam died an unnatural death, and especially after Hazrat Imam Hussain, every single Imam died due to poisoning. So wouldn't it be a lil illogical to eat the same food, that you are sure is poisonous, but still eat and die?
I don't know brother, you might have some explaination for it, but to me it seems somewhat illogical.
**
[/quote]

Brother, All the Imam's knew about their death and how, when and where they would die.

Imam Ali, woke up Abdur Rahman Ibn-e-Muljim on his way to the Masjid for prayers and said something to the effect that he knew about his evil designs but that it was time for prayers and he should get up.

Imam Hussain left Madina and Makkah because he knew he was gonna die soon and he did not want to have any bloodshed at the sacred places.
When reached karbala. He asked about 40 people what the name of the place was , and everyone had a different name for it like Nay Nawa and stuff. THe 40th person said that in ancient times this place was also called Karbala. Then the Imam said that this is where they should stop and place camp.

He then called the people of the village and told them that him and his family will be martyred there. He told them that their heads would be cut off and that their bodies would be trampled over by horses.
He then asked them to come out after this would have happened and bury the dead.

I will try to get more info on the rest of the Imams..

Shah-e-Mardan Sher-e-Yazdan,
Quwwat-e-Parwardigar,
Lafatah illa ALI,
La Saif ila Zulfiqar
========================
20

why do shias say 'ya Ali Madad?'

I mean why not just ask help for Allah