I never understood this fact, if Shia believes are true. How Allah SWT guarantees the protection of his final book and chooses an oppressor Umar R.A (who did so much harm to Ahle-Bait-Athaar) and his successor Uthman R.A to do this great job that will remain on Earth till Qiyamat in its original form.
Please, only Shia brothers answer this. I really want to know what they think of this fact and how they feel when reading Quran in the order that these two Sahaba compiled it (with consensus of ashaab-e-sufa and top notch Sahaba including Ali R.A). Why an alleged munafiq (who turned from Islam after Prophet SAW death and who beats her daughter etc etc) will do such a great job. When I am asking this question, I am assuming you don’t believe in tahreef-e-Quran, or 10 para eaten by goat or real Quran being in the cave with 12th Imaam, you know what I mean. The things that you openly admit in public, that is that this Quran that we have in our houses (shia or sunni) is the complete Quran.
I would really appreciate if Sunni brothers don’t reply to my post and let Shia brothers answer this one. Thanks. This question is bugging me for so long and every shia that I spoke to say that he believes this Quran is complete and there is no ‘real sahifa’ thingy in cave.
Both of these answers are first time I am hearing. Please provide exact reference to the hadith book. It would be interesting to see what Sunni Ulema will have to say about it. I will consult one once you provide a concrete proof. So far it looks like a familiar routine rebuttal from Shias to divert the question.
Moreover, stick to the question and answer it. Was it not compiled during Umar./Uthman era and do you guys think the book in your house is in complete form and there is nothing hidden in that cave.
Yep shia beleive is that Quran was complete and in form of a book bfr Holy Prophet s.a.w left the world.
If there was no written quran then what did HAffiz's have memorized ? To memorize a book you need to have a book.
If there was no book Umar bin khitaab wudnt have said "Book of ALLAH is enough for us"
"Today I have perfected your religion and completed my favour upon you, and I was satisfied that Islam be your religion." (Qur'an 5:3). Islam is incomplete without Quran.
those were very straight and simple answers but seems like u have pre programmed assertions tht do not want to change…anyway, here is what u have asked for…
When Allah’s Apostle was on his death-bed and in the house there were some people among whom was 'Umar bin Al-Khattab, the Prophet said, “Come, let me write for you a statement after which you will not go astray.” 'Umar said, “The Prophet is seriously ill and you have the Qur’an; so the Book of Allah is enough for us.” The people present in the house differed and quarrelled. Some said “Go near so that the Prophet may write for you a statement after which you will not go astray,” while the others said as Umar said. When they caused a hue and cry before the Prophet, Allah’s Apostle said, “Go away!” Narrated 'Ubaidullah: Ibn 'Abbas used to say, “It was very unfortunate that Allah’s Apostle was prevented from writing that statement for them because of their
disagreement and noise.”
Reference:
Sahih al-Bukhari, 7:70:573 and many more…
[Narrated 'Aisha] “The verse of the stoning and of suckling an adult ten times were revealed, and they were (written) on a paper and kept under my bed. When the messenger of Allah expired and we were preoccupied with his death, a goat entered and ate away the paper.”
References:
Musnad Ahmad bin Hanbal. vol. 6. p. 269
Sunan Ibn Majah, p. 626
Ibn Qutbah, Tawil Mukhtalafi 'l-Hadith
As-Suyuti, ad-Durru 'l-Manthur, vol. 2. p. 13
Now if u do consult the sunni ulema then share with us what they think…
Also, when you are consulting sunni ulema, please ask them of the following hadith from sahih muslim.
Book 4, Number 1316:
Abu Yunus, the freed slave of 'A’isha said: 'A’isha ordered me to transcribe a copy of the Qur’an for her and said: When you reach this verse: “Guard the prayers and the middle prayer” (ii. 238), inform me; so when I reached it, I informed her and she gave me dictation (like this): Guard the prayers and the middle prayer and the afternoon prayer, and stand up truly obedient to Allah. 'A’isha said: This is how I have heard from the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him).
Yep shia beleive is that Quran was complete and in form of a book bfr Holy Prophet s.a.w left the world.
1.** If there was no written quran then what did HAffiz's have memorized ? To memorize a book you need to have a book.**
2. If there was no book Umar bin khitaab wudnt have said "Book of ALLAH is enough for us"
3. "Today I have perfected your religion and completed my favour upon you, and I was satisfied that Islam be your religion." (Qur'an 5:3). Islam is incomplete without Quran.
you are telling the world that you have to have a book to able to memorize?
Aqeel, you think anyone going to buy your logic of having a book to memorize and Umar R.A refering book means a physical compiled form of Quran. Please, don't try it again.
Nussairee, I am familiar with the first hadeeth and sorry it doesn't mean Quran in a physical and compiled form.
From your logic, whenever Allah revealed the word al-kitaab, it means there was a physical book that had been getting updated everytime Prophet SAW received revelation? Instead, what we know from several accounts that the Quran was largely memorized by ashaabe Sufa and other Sahaba and was also partially written on several objects like cloth, wood, paper and other objects used for writting. It was compiled after a ghazwa with munkareen-e-Nabuwat where it said that about 70 huffaz were shaheed and that prompted Umar R.A to start compilation. For which there was a committee that supervised the compilation and authentication process. How can a big event of history be easily wiped out? How come these things never surfaced from ahle Tashee until their books published a century ago ? I mean in a key stroke you are negating a big historical event with no concrete argument. The shia friends I had in Pakistan or abroad have never denied compilation event occurred during 2nd and 3rd Khalifaat. Also they deny that the 40 para or real and correct sahifa in a cave with Imam ghayeb is a fabricated aqeeda of some nut cases, not mainstream shia. You turned the table by negating the very event that my question is based on. I am impressed, another gem from you guys.
The second hadeeth is new for me and I am going to check on it. Though it doesn't imply that there was a whole Quran as book at that time, instead some ayaah were written on things that were available.
Makrani, Hz Ayesha R.A lived till Hz Ali's khilafah, so you don't know if this hadith is from after the ijmaa ul Quran.
^u didn't know the story of goat eating the Quran before throwing it our way, did u?..........anyway, consult ur scholar and come back and I will give u some more material to look at and explain to u my logic a bit more addressing ur points........
According to your sahih satta books Prophet pbuh used to forget things like namaz or ghusl before namaz even though He was the best of the best, then how can you believe that Allah SWT left the task of compilation of Quran in the hands of ummah based on their memory?
Volume 1, Book 5, Number 274 :
Narrated by Abu Huraira
Once the call (Iqama) for the prayer was announced and the rows were straightened. Allah’s Apostle came out; and when he stood up at his Musalla, he remembered that he was Junub. Then he ordered us to stay at our places and went to take a bath and then returned with water dropping from his head. He said, “Allahu-Akbar”, and we all offered the prayer with him.
Book 4, Number 1318:
Jabir b. 'Abdullah reported that Umar b. al-Khattab had been cursing the pagans of the Quraish an the day (of the Battle) of Khandaq (Ditch). (He came to the Holy Prophet) and said: Messenger of Allah, by God, I could not say. the 'Asr prayer till the sun set. Upon this the Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: By Allah I, too, have not observed it. So we went to a valley. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) performed ablution and we too performed ablution, and then the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said the 'Asr prayer after the sun had set. and then said the evening prayer after it.
Smooth Guy, Don’t forget that the narrater of majority of the hadiths in sahih satta umul momineen Ayesha ra according to her own confession in sahih bukhari used to lie to the Prophet pbuh. So am not sure how you can believe any of her narrations.
Volume 6, Book 60, Number 434 :
Narrated by 'Aisha
Allah’s Apostle used to drink honey in the house of Zainab, the daughter of Jahsh, and would stay there with her. So Hafsa and I agreed secretly that, if he come to either of us, she would say to him. “It seems you have eaten Maghafir (a kind of bad-smelling resin), for I smell in you the smell of Maghafir,” (We did so) and he replied. “No, but I was drinking honey in the house of Zainab, the daughter of Jahsh, and I shall never take it again. I have taken an oath as to that, and you should not tell anybody about it.”
Again in the same book we see hadith where 2nd Khalifa testifying that um ul momineen Aysha conspired against the Prophet pbuh.
Volume 6, Book 60, Number 435 :
Narrated by Ibn Abbas
Umar went aside to answer the call of nature by the Arak trees. I waited till he finished and then I proceeded with him and asked him.
“O chief of the Believers! Who were the two wives of the Prophet who aided one another against him?” He said, “They were Hafsa and 'Aisha.”
I love your Sahih satta. The more you read them the more you realize that Islam does not need any enemies. you have plenty within.
Regardless tafaseer and hadith book belong to sunnies or shias, both contain fabrications as well as have been misread and misrepresented.
What was the point of Allah sending the prophet if his revelation was not delivered intact to the world?
Do people know that the quran carries its own proof of its preservation?
The quran is preserved by Allah himself just like all the other books Allah sent were preserved by Allah himself.
Remember the main principle always. The quran is the standard not ahadith or tafaseer. Only those tafaseer and ahadith are ok which are according to the quran.
The rule is, understand the quran on basis of rules of wisdom using aqal and real world realities.
once you understand the quran then use it as a standard to understand the rest of islamic literature eg ahadith, tafasee, fiqh, seerah and history etc. Trying to understand reliable information through unreliable means is wrong, it has to be other way round ie try and understand unreliable information through reliable means so that you could see what is right and what is not right as per standard.
Regardless tafaseer and hadith book belong to sunnies or shias, both contain fabrications as well as have been misread and misrepresented.
I agree, but the problem is that sunni brothers believe all this to be true. I just hope that they denounce any hadith that degrades Prophet pbuh that brings him down to a level of us humans. Thats all.
[Narrated 'Aisha] "The verse of the stoning** and of suckling an adult ten times** were revealed, and they were (written) on a paper and kept under my bed. When the messenger of Allah expired and we were preoccupied with his death, a goat entered and ate away the paper."
Makrani, Hz Ayesha R.A lived till Hz Ali's khilafah, so you don't know if this hadith is from after the ijmaa ul Quran.
Just for the correction of records, Hazrat Ayesha (RA) died during Ameer Muaviya's (RA) khilafah and she condemned some of his acts like killing of Hajar Bin Adee, etc. There is also a controversial theory that she was murdered.
Aqeel, you think anyone going to buy your logic of having a book to memorize and Umar R.A refering book means a physical compiled form of Quran. Please, don't try it again.
Nussairee, I am familiar with the first hadeeth and sorry it doesn't mean Quran in a physical and compiled form.
From your logic, whenever Allah revealed the word al-kitaab, it means there was a physical book that had been getting updated everytime Prophet SAW received revelation? Instead, what we know from several accounts that the Quran was largely memorized by ashaabe Sufa and other Sahaba and was also partially written on several objects like cloth, wood, paper and other objects used for writting. It was compiled after a ghazwa with munkareen-e-Nabuwat where it said that about 70 huffaz were shaheed and that prompted Umar R.A to start compilation. For which there was a committee that supervised the compilation and authentication process. How can a big event of history be easily wiped out? How come these things never surfaced from ahle Tashee until their books published a century ago ? I mean in a key stroke you are negating a big historical event with no concrete argument. The shia friends I had in Pakistan or abroad have never denied compilation event occurred during 2nd and 3rd Khalifaat. Also they deny that the 40 para or real and correct sahifa in a cave with Imam ghayeb is a fabricated aqeeda of some nut cases, not mainstream shia. You turned the table by negating the very event that my question is based on. I am impressed, another gem from you guys.
The second hadeeth is new for me and I am going to check on it. Though it doesn't imply that there was a whole Quran as book at that time, instead some ayaah were written on things that were available.
Makrani, Hz Ayesha R.A lived till Hz Ali's khilafah, so you don't know if this hadith is from after the ijmaa ul Quran.
salaam
i am too suprised that youve never heard that narration from the shias before. it is a stock reply. every shia kid on the net is armed with these stock replies. they are useful against people new to facing shia slander.
the particular hadith quoted is weak but the shia insinuation only works on people if they forget that Quran was memorised by the companions and the parchments and papers was not the main method of preservation
smooth i am not aware of concensus among shia regarding the Quran, it is not something essential to shia. to be honest it was naive of you to expect the shia to answer you in a simple manner
Aqeel, you think anyone going to buy your logic of having a book to memorize and Umar R.A refering book means a physical compiled form of Quran. Please, don't try it again.
Well i didnt expect you to understand this... it was something for those who think before they talk.
If all of us memorize a book of Pakistan studies that hasnt been published yet we sure will have difficult time making sure everyone is actual a hafiz of social studies book thats yet to be published. You guys give non muslim a spot to hit on and when they do... u blame shia's for having a different Quran and try to get out of the self created mess.
For you i quoted a ayya from quran, now bang your head on the wall or google something come up with some ridiculous junk.