Shia And Sunni Muslims

Re: Shia And Sunni Muslims

Bottom line is that you were ignorant of this book and you without any investigation called it a Shia book, this shows how down you are interms of your anti-Shia sentiments that always lead you humilaited. “Al Bidayah Wal Nihayah” is the actual name of the book, not Tarikh Ibn Kathir, I used the urdu word “Tarikh” seeing that you are quite ignorant and may be this will make you realize your mistake.

Geoooooooo !!! First time ever in my life I have heard such condemntation of Ayesha’s act from a Sunni. I appritiate that you at least time time didnt show stubbornness. But for the benefit of readers, I would like to tell the consequences of doing Matam (which Ayesha did) according to Sunni school:

The Prophet said, “He who slaps the cheeks, tears the clothes and follows the tradition of the Days of Ignorance is not from us.”
Sahih Bukhari, Vol 2 Hadith 384

So she is no more from the nation, according to the fatwa of Prophet [s].

According to the above fatwa of Rasool Allah, (according to Sunni view), She no longer remains pious, for get about “very very pious” :slight_smile: She is not even from the nation of Muslims according to the above hadith.

Wooooh !!! Thanx alot again. You know what, Sunnies specially Nawasib just die accepting the thing which you have just accepted. You know what, your acceptance that she went against Quraninc Injunction (33:33) also proves that shewas not pious (can a person who go against Quran be considered pious?). And by the way, the consequence of woman going against 33:33 also leads to the same place like it was in the tradition of Bukhari quoted abov, no longer from this nation rather from the previous nation of ignorance (Dau r Jaahilyah).

[Yusufali 33:33] And stay quietly in your houses, and make not a dazzling display, like that of the former Times of Ignorance

Also as you said, she did wrong when she came out from her house and faught against Ali [as], let me also share you the result of the one who fights Ali [as]:

Prophet said: “Whoever obeys 'Ali, obeys me, whoever obeys me, obeys Allah, whoever disobeys 'Ali disobeys me, whoever disobeys me, disobeys Allah”

So I hope you do not consider the one who disobeys Allah [swt] and his prophet [s] to be pious. Because Quran consider such people from amonsgt disbelievers:
Surah Aal-e-Imran verse 32** Say, “Obey Allah and the Prophet, but if they turn back, then verily Allah does not love the disbelievers”**

:slight_smile:

Now, after you accepted that she did those sins, and i have enlighten you about the result/consequences of those sins, hence whatever good deeds she might have done in past becomes void. Thats what Quran tells us at various times that no matter how much good deeds a person might have done in past, but in big sin will destroy all of his previous efforts.

:slight_smile:

Re: Shia And Sunni Muslims

I have already answered that but since ignorance is going from all sides of your mind hence you are unable to scroll back and find the answer.

What about your challenge of quoting a tradition from Saha Satta, you cannot run like the cowards of Uhud from that. I have provided proof on your challenge right from Sahih Bukhari testifying that your sweet sweet Sahabi Abdullah Ibn Masud DID NOT BELIEVE IN THE PRESENT QURAN.

I can see that the tradition has made your mouth shut till qayamah. Stil of you have some shame and guts, please do reply to that traidtion. See post # 96.

:D

Re: Shia And Sunni Muslims

""on the imcompleteness of the qurans...the ahadees which are mentiod igreat shia books are so greater in no.and all great muhadisseen have ranked these ahadees as "mustafeez"...a lower level of "mutwatir".....so all ahadees are absoolutely right...and scholars like Shiek |Mufeed...Muhaqiqq Damaad...Allama MAjlisi...all considered these ahadees correct....

Noori Tabarassi
great shaia muhaddis
Faslul Khitab Fee Itbaat Tahreef Kitab Rabbe Arbab
also in Naimatul Al Jazairi book
pg. 227
iran
1298 higri

all shia scholars agreed that all those ahadees which tell about incompleteness of quran are shaeeh..mutawatir...and shows that quran is lost

the same above book
pg .30

all the ahadees which tell about that quran is lost are narrated from 12 great imams....so all these ahadees show that quran is not complete..as its revealed on muhammad(pbuh) many ayats lost..many places changes were made...and sura places also changed
Al -Safi
Allama Kasi
status:greatest shia mufassir of quran
*l muqadama Sadissa *

and now the quote from the Ali bin ibraheen qumi which is considered as the oldest mufassir of quran...and scholar of isma rijal Najashi **writes that
his tafsser is like a tafseer of **imam baqir or imam jaffar sadiq ...

and he write that ...there is a part of quran which has been lost....
tafseer qumi
muqaddama
vol 1
pg 5
printed najaf
1376 higri

the early and the older scholars of shia..and consider as pillars of knowledge like
Kalini
barqi
ayyashi
naumani
farat alkuni
ahmed bin abu talib tabrassi
mulla baqir majlasi
alhar aamli
allama dfatuni
syed bahrani

they all consider that present quran is incomplete..and most of its part is lost...and all these scholars proved this many ahadees and its not easy to reject all these shaeeh and mutawwatir ahadees

Muqadaama
tafseer qumi liyad tayyab moosoovi
pg 23.

so its show that all shia great scholars beleive that quran is incomplete...plz...no taqiyya...so either consider quran is incomplete or accept these all great scholars are wrong...so what they quote about great shabas like abu bakr ..umar...usman etc etc... also wrong. !!!!!!!!

Re: Shia And Sunni Muslims

totally wrong...allah reveled** sura naas and sura falaq** when a jew labaid cast a spell on muhammad(pbuh) ...and he read it...so abdullah ibne masood just thought that these 2 suras are not revealed as a part of quran but to ease prophet(pbuh) but all sahabas agreed that these are not just reveled to free muhammad (pbuh) from spell but also as a part of quran...so they included it in quran....as this is the only difference...but you cannot answer to the tons of material that i provided with your own books..pg no..date of printing..et etc...so you start neglecting what is written in your own books....

Re: Shia And Sunni Muslims

and may be she repented later in life…similarly when she repented on the fighting with ali(ra) ..but all shias from first shia to the qiyyamah ..including you…do it ..will remain doing it without repenttence but as some very “pride” and “honourable” act…so as from hadees …as you yourself quoted…

you are not from Muhammad(pbuh) …

Re: Shia And Sunni Muslims

the game ended .....yahooooooo

Re: Shia And Sunni Muslims

with the repentance...even the greatest sin..shirk is erased...what to spaek about fighting with ali(ra) !!!!!!!!

Re: Shia And Sunni Muslims

i think no need to discuss further from topic as you yourself have proved from hadees quoting above that...

*The Prophet said, "He who slaps the cheeks, tears the clothes and follows the tradition of the Days of Ignorance is not from us."
Sahih Bukhari, Vol 2 Hadith 384
*

so you are not from Muhamad(pbuh) nation..as you yourself provided us with proof...thanks brother and bye
allah ahafiz
*rub rakha
*

Re: Shia And Sunni Muslims

The Islam is not about unknown possibilities hence your notion of "may be" is absolutely bizarre and it will remain so untill you provide clear cut reference that she repented on her grave sins that includes:
1. Matam on the death of Prophet (according to you).
2. Coming out of her house going against Quranic injuctions.
3. Fighting against Ali as
4. Fighting against Khalifa Rashid of the time.
etc...

If you have clear cut proofs of her repentence for these then please cite otherwise please remain quite since your excuses based on conjectures will not work here.

I knew you will come up with this excuse thats why I had used the word "**according to Sunni school" **in my post because Sahih Bukhari is the book of Sunnies, Shias denounce the author who was so shameless that he went to Nawasib and Khawarij in roder to take hadeeths from them.

So the bottom line is, Ayesha is not from the nation since its "your" school which forbids matam which Ayesha did.

:)

Re: Shia And Sunni Muslims

Thats what I have been saying, i.e. your (pyaray pyaray, meethay meethay, sabs baghaat jaisay...) Sahabi Ibn Masud rejected two Surahs to be the part of Quran and he never wrote them in the copy of Quran (Mushaf) he used through out his life.

"What if today someone stands and says that such and such Surahs are not part of Quran and that he rejects to include it in his copy of Quran, will you regard him as Kaafir or Muslim" ?????

And by the way, according to Sunnies, Abdullah Ibn Masud was amongt those four who knew more about Quran as compared to other Sahabies as instruted by Prophet:

*"I heard the Holy Prophet saying, 'Take (Learn) the Qur'an from four: Abdullah bin Masud, Salim, Mu'adh, and Ubai bin Ka'b'."
*
Sahih Bukhari Arabic - English Vol 6 hadith number 521

So the one whom prophet inctured to learn Quran did not consider Two Surahs of Quran to be the part of Quran hence he never put them in his copy of Quran.

So was he a Kaafir or Muslim due to this act? If still a Muslim then no Najis Nasibi on earth has a right to raise fingers at the Shia text.
:D

Re: Shia And Sunni Muslims

yes..clear cut proofs..that she began weeping until her shawl became wet with tears on reaching 33:33 ayats...and this is also quoted by Imam Masrooq.....

reagarding doing some acts of grief on prophet(pbuh) death...if she rpented..she repented in heart...she not pasted posters on walls of madina for this repentence...understand !!!!!!

Re: Shia And Sunni Muslims

hahahaha...so all sunnis should take al-kafi as a source as its purity level according to shia scholars is 40 % ...not by ahle-sunnah scholars.....LOL

Re: Shia And Sunni Muslims

Authenticity level is something else, taking hadeeths from Nawasib and Khawarij is something else. I dont where shame of you people gets hide when you realize that your ancestors were Nasibi and Khawarij or your pioneer ulema had good ties with those zealots.

Re: Shia And Sunni Muslims

Even if we accept that then that repentance is for one of the grave sins she did i.e going agasint Quraninc injunctions 33:33, what about the rest of the sins? What about her matam which according to you has thrown her out of the nation?

[quote]

reagarding doing some acts of grief on prophet(pbuh) death...if she rpented..she repented in heart...she not pasted posters on walls of madina for this repentence...understand !!!!!!
[/quote]

She repented in her heart, and after so many centuries only its dawa_i_dil who come to know as to what was in her heart? gr8 !!! See, I am the follower of Baab ul IUlm, so keep such lame excuses to yourself.

And as for your comments about the posters in madina, then if she had the audacity to come out of her house time and again, sometimes on camel while sometimes riding on mule (khachchar), in front of so many people (male) then she could have done her repentance in public too so that the people who are deviated to to following her could also come to know that their leader has repented and they were on wrong path.

Re: Shia And Sunni Muslims

             incidence of abdullah ibne masood(ra)

1.there is a riwait that ibne masood used to say that thhese two surahs are order given to prophet(pbuh)...so that he can break the spell on him....

2.there is a shaeeh riwait of "Zira-e"Bin Jubaish" quoted by.....

*shaheeh bukhari
*musnad by imamahmed
*musnad by abubakr alhameeddi
*almusthakraj by abu naeem
*sunnan by nisai

Jubaish asked from ubai bin Kaab...you also quoted that quran should learn from them ..he is i out of 3......

jubaish asked ibne kaab..that ibne masood do not include 2 suras in quran...hwhat u say about that....ibne kaab replied.......

"I have heard from prophet(pbuh) about these 2 suras ...then prophet (pbuh) replied that ..i was asked by allah to say "QUL" ...so I (prophet) repeated "QUL" ............

so jubaish....ibne kaab replied....we say what prophet(pbuh) said...........

  1. in musnad ahmed bin hanbal...it is written that ibne kkab said that prophet(pbuh) said to me that jibreel said to me "qul" so i said this and jibreel said to me"qul" in naas also so i also did it....so ibne kaab says we also do what prophet(pbuh) did.....

so its clear from above 3 riwayats that the real problem or misconception lies in the fact of "QUL"....that ibne masood thought that "QUL" indicates that allah ordered muhammad(pbuh) to say "QUL" ...so he did.....not on other muslims....

ibne kaab...also greatest scholar of quran also becomes some concious from the word "QUL" ...but he inquired of prophet(pbuh) ...and prophet(pbuh) replied that........ i am ordered to say "qul' so i said "qul".......

its mens...if someone says to us that ...qul ...i will go ..."...he will never say that....qul...i will go...but he will say that...." i will go""""..means he will discard the word "qul" as its just show the "tone of order".....but when ibne kaab asked prophet(pbuh)...he specifically said that i am orderd to sy "QUL" so...i also said ...."QUL"...

                      means its not discarded by the prophet(pbuh)...means that it was wahi...not "ONLY ORDER TO MUHAMMAD(pbuh) ........

in quran there are 330 ayats despite of these 2 which start with "QUL" ...so clearly shows that they are not orders "SPECIFICALLY" to muhammad(pbuh) ...but are wahi...and revealed to whole muslims...thats why prophet(pbuh) ordered to recite them with "L" .....

so its was just misconception with the word "QUL" which is misunderstood by ibne masood ...despite of the fact...he was one of the greatest...onesahabi of prophet(pbuh)....greatest scholar of quran and fiqah...and very old companion....but still he is not "masoom"...so he is mistaken here just for the word "QUL".......so its natural that even greatest scholar can misunderstand the thing at various place....its not so strange......

but in 1400 yas...not even a single sahabi...not even a single muhaddis or muffassir have said a single word against ibne masood for his misunderstand and misjudjement.....

a person is totally shameless..wicked and cruel...who even say a single word to ibne masood for his mis-judging...and then blame on the purity of quran...and then bring about hatred of sahabs...uus sai bara zalim koi aur nahii joh ibne masood par is tara ka ilzaam lagai....

Re: Shia And Sunni Muslims

do you live in her heart ..or there is "wahi" on you as "batni wahi" used to reveal on your 12 imams...that she not repented....who the hell you are to question about her.......will allah ask you on the qiyyamah that wheteher she repented or not.....are you the responsible for what she did......

i am asking you...whether she repented or not...whether you and your whole shia community repented or not....if not...what the heck you are asking about aisha...as there is a high probability that she repented as she repeted on fighting with ali....but your whole shia community do this matam...as a very pious and good deed....

so you are not from ""MUHAMMAD"......as you quoted the hadees.......

you are deviated people as not following Muhammad (pbuh) path as in hadees.....

you have no linkage with muhammad(pbuh) as you quoted in hadees....

sweep before your own door....then ask for other repentance....understand baby !!!!!!!

Re: Shia And Sunni Muslims

doosro kai mamai bantai hai......pehlai apna gund saaf kar lo...phir doosro ki fikar karna... OK......khud jaisai barai momin hai.....jo aisha(ra) par ilzaam laga rahai hai...apni kurtootai nazar nahi aati....barai mutaqqi aur naik perveen bantai hai.....jao roa peeto...tumharai naseebo mai hee yai rona peetna hai....jo ghaddaria kee hai tum logo nai auladd-e-nabwi sai....uus ka yahi anjam hota hai....rona dhona...mar kutai....taswai bahana......karo karo...qiyamaat tak karo....
as you are not from "MUHAMMAD" (pbuh) ...as you quoted yourself the hadees.....

Re: Shia And Sunni Muslims

The bottom line is that we dont find proofs that she repented and accepted ALL the sins that she had been doing, if there are please bring forth otherwise stop depending on conjectures like “she might have done it before dying”. etc.

And yes, doing all kinds of sins through out one’s life and doing repentance before death is not counted, as mentioned in Holy Quran:

Then when they saw Our might, they said, 'We believe in God alone and we disbelieve in that we were associating with Him. ’ But their belief when they saw Our might did not profit them … [40:84]

Thats what Friown did, he tired to repent before his death, but what happened?

Till when the drowning overtook him, he said, 'I believe that there is no god but He in whom the Children of Israel believe. [10:90]

So according to Holy Quran, repentace beofre death is not accepted!!! Now you may shout how much you want :slight_smile:

Even for the sake of argument we suppose that she did before her death, then where we can find that she told her adherents to change their beliefs regarding Ali [as], as she was on wrong path and now she has been shown the right path??? You mean to say woh chupkay say taubah kar gyeen aur apnay pairokaroon ko gumrah hi chor gyeen bina sahi raasta batayay?

So please cut the crap.

The hadith is not from Shia source rather from those who are known to do romance with la’een Nawasib and Khawarij. For me, the hadeeth of Prophet is suffice:
Narrated by Imam Ahmed: Holy Prophet [s] said to Hadhrat Ali [as]: “Are you not pleased with it that you will enter the heaven with Me, Hasan and Hussein and our descendents will follow us and our wives will follow our descendents and our Shi’a will be to the left and right of us”.
’ Sawaiq al Muhirqah’ by anti Shia scholar Allmah Ibn Hajar Makki al-Hasami, page 541 (published in Faisalabad, Pakistan)

See this hadith I have just cited from an Anti-Shia book (for you otherwise ther are many of such in my books as well). So now I dont need fatwa from you, the fatwa of Prophet is suffice for Shia of Ali [as] :slight_smile:

Rather you keep this advice in the issue of tahreef which makes you excited all the time and then have to smell the dust in humiliation just because no one had ever told you about the very kind of reports present in your own books
:hoonh:

Re: Shia And Sunni Muslims

ilzaam, tum hi nay to kaha teen martaba kaha hai kay she "she did wrong wrong wrong" , is main mera kia qasoor hai ab? Mera to bus yeh qasoor hai kay main nay tumhari kitaab ka fatwa bayan kardia kay aisay log musalmanoon main say nehen.

[quote]
...apni kurtootai nazar nahi aati....barai mutaqqi aur naik perveen bantai hai.
[/quote]

Bayshak insaan ko apnay kartotain bhi dekhni chahaay hain lakin yahan jab debate horahi hai aur topic dushmanaan e Ali [as] ka chal raha hai to un kay kartoot to bayaan hongay na, is main bura bannay wali kia baat hai.

.....
[quote]
....jao roa peeto...tumharai naseebo mai hee yai rona peetna hai.........
[/quote]

Alhamdulilah, Hussain [as] par rona sunnat e Rasool hai, aur agar yeh sunnat apkay mutabiq humara "naseeb" hai to kia kahnay aisay naseeb kay.

.....
[quote]
jo ghaddaria kee hai tum logo nai auladd-e-nabwi sai....uus ka yahi anjam hota hai....rona dhona...mar kutai....taswai bahana......karo karo...qiyamaat tak karo........
[/quote]
.

Jahan tak ghaddari ki baat hai to sab say baray ghaddaroon ko tum logon nay paal rakha hai jo kay doran e jang rasool ko khatray main daal kar bhaag kharahy huay, phir bhi tum ko itna gharoor hai, ajeeb baat hai.

Aur jahan tak Hussain [as] say ghaddari karnay walon ka sawal hai to chanda, main khud itnay dinoon say yehi to pooch rahah hoon kay un ghaddaroon par tum log lanat kion nehen kartay?? Kion hum Shia hi unlogon par lanat kartay hain is amal kay lye? Kion tum logon nay un ghaddaroon ko (jin main Shabees bin Rabi, Shimer bin Zil Joshan, Umar bin Saad waghera shaamil hain) apnay hadees ki kitaboob main jagah day rakhi hai ??? Kion un ko Thiqa kaha hai?

Aoo, niklo baahir aur condemn karo un sab koo aur un sab ko bhi jinhoon nay un ghaddaroon kay is qaabil samjha kay un say apni kitaboon main hadees riwayat karsakain.

Lakin aisa tum kion karnay lagay, sheeraza na bikhar jai tumahray mazhab ka!!!

Re: Shia And Sunni Muslims

Sahabi Ibn Masud par atleast main to koi ilzaam nehen laga rahha, main wohi kah rahah hoon jo Sunni ulema nay Ibn Masud kau mutaliq likha. Similarly Ibn Kathir in his famed work ‘Al Bidayah wal Nihayah’ under the topic of ‘Ibn Ziyad’ states:
“No doubt that Hadrath Ibn Masud [ra] didn’t use to write Mozatain in his mushaf”
Al Bidayah Wal Nihayah (Urdu), Vol 8 page 1255 (Nafees Academy Karachi).

So the bottom line is, that whatever reasonings and excuese you give, a sahabi rejected two surahs from being the part of Quran. Aur meray sawal ka jawab kahan gya, it was so simple:

"What if today someone stands and says that such and such Surahs are not part of Quran and that he rejects to include it in his copy of Quran, will you regard him as Kaafir or Muslim" ?????