Shia And Sunni Muslims

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Shia And Sunni Muslims

All major Shia books are filled with narrations from their Imams that say that this present Quran is not the real Quran, and Imam Mahdi has the real Quran. If that was not the belief of Shias then why they still use those books. There are more than 4000 Shia narrations that says this present Quran is not in the form it was revealed to Prophet s.a.w, and Sahabas made changes to it.
All major Shia jurists agreed that this Quran is not in its original form.

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I have never read any such narration nor have ever been taught any such narration. Changes don't mean that the surahs have nauzbillah been changed but the surahs were rearranged; i.e. is the order was rearranged from which the came on Prophet s.a.w. by Hazrat Umer and one of the wives of Prophet s.a.w.(if I remember correctly). Anyway you can go to any shia mosque and you will find the same Quran as in the sunni mosque.

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Next time you go to your zaakirs, ask them about these narrations.

1. Original Quran will not come into view till the manifestation of Imam Mehdi (SHIAs 12th Imam) (Na’uzubillah). [Anwaar-ul-Na'umania, Vol#2, Pg#360 - Published Iran]

2. Collectors of Quran eliminated virtues of Prophet’s progeny from Surah Al-Ahzab which was about to the length of Surah Al-Bakrah (Na’uzubillah). [Haq-ul-Yaqeen, Pg#66 - Published Iran]

3. Quran has been purposely altered by the drunkard Caliphs {Abu-Bakr (r.a), Umar (r.a) and Usman (r.a)}; The present Quran is false; It’s the duty of Imam Mehdi (SHIAs 12th Imam) to bring it in its original form; When Imam Mehdi (SHIAs 12th Imam) will come, then the Quran will be recited in its original form (Na’uzubillah). [Quran Translation by Maqbool Hussain Delhvi, Chap#12, Pg#384 – Published India]

**4. Quranic verses were not arranged by Abu-Bakr (r.a) in the same order as that in which it was revealed {hence Muslim Ummah was deprived of original Quran and present day Quran is incorrect} (Na’uzubillah). [Sheikh-e-Saqifah, Pg#134 – Published Karachi]

5. To provide reasoning to “WATI-FIL-DUBR” changes were made in the Quranic comprehension (Na’uzubillah). [Tehzeeb-ul-Ahkaam, Vol#7, Pg#415 – Published Iran]

6. ]The present (false) Quran doesn’t mentions the name of “Pakistan” however ours (SHIAs) true Quran even have the name of “Pakistan” (Na’uzubillah). [Hazar Tumhari Das Hamari, Pg#554 – Published Karachi]

I have only quoted few narrations.
**

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Mulla Ali Qari rahmatullahi alayh writes :

" similarly , such a person is a kaafir who rejects the quran or a single letter of 39it , or changed something in it , or added something to it . ( in the sense that he believes that additions and omissions took place in it ).

This is not confined to the letters and words alone . Instead , excesses in its present arrangement (** arrangement of words , verses , chapters )** and its injunctions ( distortions in the meanings of the quran ) is also a cause of kufr.

" excesses in the words and injunctions of the quran is also – kufr ."

Hitler finds out that Pakistan Team Lost T20 Semis.. :)
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Re: Shia And Sunni Muslims

^^ by the way I remember that I had read in sunni islamiyat in matric that order of surahs was rearranged.

rest, I don't know about all these books you have mentioned, I would have to research on them. Sadly I don't have access to our home library as I am away from home, therefore I have to get back on these books later when i find exactly what they are, etc. Also I don't believe in just copying/pasting from random sites.

PS. I don't think any of these are authentic shia books. Maybe you guys should stop copying/pasting for a change.

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^re-arranged by whom?

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From what I remember it said Hazrat Umer and one of the wives of Prophet pbuh (I don't remember her name) but it was done after the death of Prophet pbuh. Quran was being compiled into one book and the surahs were rearranged from the order they came on Prophet pbuh. It was a sunni islamiyat book and the course was taught by a sunni teacher.

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Thats not true, no sunni Islamiyat book states that order of verses was re-arranged after death of Prophet pbuh.

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I didn't say verses, I said surahs. Now I didn't know that I would be participating in this argument on GS otherwise I would have saved my islamiyat book. :)

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I think that should be the end of this thread... priceless words!
We are ONE COMMUNITY! Please get over these differences.

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Quran-i kareem ?

lets begin with the meaning of TEHREEF. Tehreef means change that reasult in different meaning of the word or sentence, which can in turn change whole course.

there are three types of Intentional Thereefs:

1) tehreefi-lafzi ( word):
in this case actual words are replaced by different words or removed to change the meaning.
e.g " kareem jaa rahaa taa" can be by just removing j of jaa ' kareem aa rahaa taa.
and so on.

2) tehrieefi-maa'naa ( meaning):
in this type of tehreef words are kept same but meaning is changed. e.g
"Roko maat, janay do" and " roko, maat janay do" changes meaning completely without any change of even a single word ( cooma is used just to denote how to say it).

3) tehreefi- tarteebi ( order):
in this case no word is changed or or said different but just order is changed. e.g
"313" , "133", and "331". in all three cases we have two 3's and one 1 but look at the values.

Now lets go and look at QURAN-i KAREEM.

Ther is no tehrifi Lafzi and tehreefi maana ( as for as arabic is considered translation has differences even b/w 2 scholars of same school of thought) but tehreefi tarteebi is there. e.g "iqraa bismi rabikal...."is not the first ayaa of compiled quran but " Alhamdu lilahaa rabil......." ( as scholars have difference of opinion on bismiAllaha being the part of quran or surahas ), chalange of quran to bring suraha like this, 10 paras like these and quran like this should have an order of bring quran like this ( they could not thus), bring 10 paras like this ( they could not thus ) suraa like this ( they could not) thus silence ( as challange gets easier every step not difficult, to show the kamal of quran) and so on to prove that there is tehreefi tarteebi.

Now why, when, where, how and whom brought this tehreef, was he right full, was permitted/guided by Allaha.

So my dear let me dipute that Uthman has compiled quran as a lot of scholars beleive that quran was there in the compiled form in the presence of Prophet (pbuh). I can qoute a lot of Ahadeet but instead would like to be simpley logical about the matter thus:

1)
" i am leaving two among u Quran and ( sunnaha or ahlibait)'

so how come Prophet (pbuh) leave quran uncompiled?
He completed and compiled it and the way it should be,in the guidence of Allaha (swt). So He by himself changed the tarteeb.

2) quran tumharay darmyaan meezan hay.

so how come meezan by it self has no definate shape?
thus no one knows where and how to get hold of meezaan.

3) Ilook at 1) and 2)

so how come some one will trust or follow some thing which is prone to changes or is erroneous?

4)Allaha (swt) kaa challange kay may iss kee hifazat karnay walla hoo.

so how come then some one still beleive in Allah

5) Imam Ali (as) is a caliph, finally.

So how come he kept silent, and over looked this?

6) we all pray?

so how come u faithfully, with out any doubt read a suraha which can be minus ayaa(s), plus ayaa(s) and so on. Surprisingly none of the imaam or caliph pointed that out thus they were low in knowledge or there is no doubt in Quran.

Now where does this issue comes from:

1) Some of the ahaadeeth books, both sunni and shia.
2) Some philosophical disscusions to solve this issue of ahadeeth being collected.
3) Some intentional literature to mislead.

Just to aad on
1) SAYYED GIRL CAN MARRY non sayyed, it is permitted in Shia School of thought but its like " we muslim like to have jew or chrestian girl in marraige but would not like to give our sisters to a jew or christian man", so kind of an attitude not a school of thought.
2)When we speaks of immams knowledge or kiramaat or qualities, we take it for granted (understood) that greatest imam is Mohammad (pbuh). So he supersceeds all the imams in all the qualities.
3) When we say imam Mehdi has the real quran or imam Ali had the real quran, that does not mean the quran we have is incomplete or some thing else na-uzubillaha but emphasize that imam Ali's quran or the imam mehdi's quran will have all the info about every word, ayaa ,surraha from personal, tribal, historical and every point of veiw.

I live in canada and it is free country, so if u think that I use taqqiya ( u used it too much , though i can give u pages of pages reffernces from sunni scholars that recommend taqqiya ), u are wasting ur energies.

take care and Khuda hafiz

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If you want to seriously take part in debate then please go post by post and dont waste time of other people by coming in between without knowing what has been previously said. If you have some shame or guts in you, please reply to the number of authentic Sunni texts that I have provided in previous pages about Tahreef, and if you cant, stay quite!

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**khanbabax **or all those anti-Shia lunatics having Nasibi tendencies believe in the above fatwa, then they are asked in the name of Allah [swt] to be fair and just and drop Munafiqat (hypocrisy), and hence issue takfeer against all those important personalities of your school who advanced notions of tahreef in their statements. And they include:
1. Ayesha
2. Hafsah
3. Umar
4. Ibn Umar
5. Uthman bin Affan
6. Aban bin Uthman
7. Ibn Abbas
8. Abu Musa al-Ash'ari
9. Ubai bin Ka`b
10. Abdullah Ibn Masud
11. Abu Muawyah
12. Urwah bin Zubair
13. Hasham bin Umro
14. Harun bin Musa
15. Zubair bin al Harees
16. Akramah
17. Abdullah
18. Yahyah bin Abu Bashir
19. Saeed bin Jubair
20. Ismail Makki
21. Qatadah
22. Hassan Basri
23. Ubaid bin Zuhaak
24. Mujahid

(dont say that these people didnt do so, there are traditions in sunni sources thats why I am saying this and i can present them on request)

So khanbabax and his likes, if youhagve some shame then please do issue takfeer against the cited personailites otherwise yu dont have any right to attack Shias for a thing which the cited peronalities of your school had also been doing, you cant have two laws for two different people!!

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i hate cursing ...or such things...if you have not written...why uyou supported the quote of Khoeimieni that quran we have present is incomplete by refferintto "malicious" sahabs who done all this....so
accept that.....

1.either quran is complete....and khoeimieni is wrong

2.quran is incomplete and khoiemeini is right.....

accept 1 or 2....plz...reply back ....

plz...no sooper dooper Taqiyya formula.....

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why are you now running from your own challenge like those woh had left prophet alone in the batle and had ran like cowards? You asked me a tradition from Saha Satta, I have provided one, now comment on that instead of changing topics again and again!!!! Otherwise your selience will be considered as your acceptance of Tahreef.

PS: If you know how to make use of a organ given you by Allah [swt] namely eyes then scroll back, I had already answered about the statement of Ayatullah Khomeni.

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first... i am aware of tareek ibne kaseer but do not know tthat its other name is al bidya wal nihaya...so what need of jumping so much .....there are various names of the same thing...

secondly...you also quoted from tabarai....i say...if aysha(ra) did this...she did it completely wrong...completely wrong...completey wrong......there are clear cut ahadees who negate this act.....
aysha was not masoom...so she done wrong....similarly...she was human being ...very very pious...the most beloved wife and women of prophet(pbuh) but not masoom....so in 36 higri...she also done a mistake in fighting with ali(ra) in battle of jammal while negating the quran verse ...stay in home......

so again shows that ...she is not masooms...some mistakes done by him...whats so unnatural about that...all are human beings.....
f aisha did matam...she did it wrong...prophet(pobuh) strictly forbidden it...while she done it...wrong...she also did millions and trillions of good deeds...and on qiyammah..her tarazoo will bend due to good deeds...and finally to jannah ..inshallah ..as she was the most beloved wife of prophet(pbuh).......

and we all inclluding 4 imams..look for quran and ahadees...if anything contradicts with it...we throw it against the wall...!!!!!
enjoy... :D

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*

plz..tell me...no 1 or no. 2 plz reply back...do not make aai baii shaii

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so plz..sister…i request you to see page 3 of this thread… i have quoted large no. of such narrations from al-kafi and other great shia scholars…

post 281 of http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showthread.php?p=4929677#post4929677

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but sister...even prophet(pbuh) have never such characteristics as i quoted above 13 points from your own books...not any other nabi and rasool...so how to 11 iamams...impossible...

ali (ra) only compiled quran according to the way its revealed..not done tafseer of it...so how the every word definition will be in it...where is this quran now...is man can live for 1200 years...are we all living without the real definition of word..aya...with historical..tribal background for 1400 years...is this not negetaing the rule of allah that we are its protectoir ...etc etc...

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yes..i agree...either my shia brothers and sisters accept that these books...which are written by greatest faqeeh and scholars...as i quoted onpagee no. 3 are wrong ...as means...also many things written in them against sahabas are wrong....if not then accept that these all shia great scholars books are right so quranis incomplete...???

whats your reply.....