my question is a wierd one. is there any way india can help/pressurise pakistan into bringing back democracy? not that i envision it happening, but with the peace process and all, anything's possible. besides it'll be good for the whole region.
^ requires a new thread IMO, as it has little to do with choti tind.
Plus i dont see how democracy will be good for Pakistan - if by democracy, you mean bring back BB and NS, then our precious reserves of over $14B will shrink back to less than 500M, as in the time of NS. I bet BB, NS and co must be rubbing their hands after watching the reserves grow - they must be dreaming of new palaces in England and France.
I however do think that Shauqat Aziz should stop being a miser, and start spending on the lower and middle classes. Moreover i wouldnt mind if Musharaf desolves the parliment and brings back his last cabinet - those ppl sure knew how to do their jobs, & get rid of these corrupt Chaudry's and Co.
^ sorry if i disrupted the thread, but just to comment on BB and NS- u don't have to vote for them
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*Originally posted by karina: *
my question is a wierd one. is there any way india can help/pressurise pakistan into bringing back democracy? not that i envision it happening, but with the peace process and all, anything's possible. besides it'll be good for the whole region.
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Please dont turn a discussion on political freedoms and national intrest, turn into a flamer....
And MYBO
:)
As for me, i am so glad choti-tind is out.... :)
The army/police cracked down pretty hard on protestors at the airport otherise the outcry has been mainly in the Pakistani press. here’s a pretty good article from one of the Pakistani dailies about the whole affair:
Shahbaz Sharif came and was hit by the iron fist that lurks beneath the thin veneer of our so-called democracy. In the paradigm of force and power, concepts such as law, propriety, fundamental rights etc just don’t register. The gun terrorises everyone; the courts, the politicians, the civil servants, the police and even the press. They meekly surrender because they are afraid or want to hang on to whatever little they have. A few graduate to the next step and seek bakshish or payment for services rendered. Some crumbs are thrown their way and are happily lapped up. This, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, sums up our national character.
Holding this nation hostage is so easy. We sell our souls for so little — all of us not just one institution or one group of people. Take this ineffectual body of people who have now come together in yet another Muslim League. What do they get for caving in and agreeing to do the bidding of a General in uniform? Some become powerless ministers; others even more useless members of parliament and some are just satisfied with meaningless titles. A vast majority struts about as local office bearers of the Kings party and are mighty pleased with themselves. They have no respect in society, no power to exercise, no higher purpose to serve. Yet, they have a perpetual smile of triumph on their well-fed faces.
Our courts also acquiesce without a pang of conscious. They declare every military intervention necessary and legal. They declare kosher every outrageous transgression whether it is against fundamental rights or the basic law of the land. And they become accessories in illegalities that even a lowly civil judge would find unbearable.
A new device has been found to avoid the embarrassment of declaring legal patently illegal acts. The office of the Superior courts is now used to avoid hearing petitions. Four absurd objections were placed on Shahbaz Sharif’s petition seeking to be allowed in to the country. When the lawyers ran to the Supreme Court in appeal, its office did not allow the petition to come up for hearing on the day it was filed. Petitions such as these become meaningless the day after and that is what was achieved in both the courts.
Forget the question of fundamental rights or the fact that Shahbaz had a right ordained by the Supreme Court to enter and live in Pakistan. He had been declared a proclaimed offender by an anti terrorist court and warrants were issued to the police to arrest him wherever they could find him. He arrived in Lahore and was in the custody of the police. He had to be produced before ATC and there is no legal argument that can override this. The fact that he was not means that the case in the ATC automatically collapses.
But will anybody take note of this or the fact that an egregious contempt of court has been committed. Another testing time looms ahead for the courts. Petitions are being filed. Some stance would have to be taken unless the old reliable of not hearing these matters is used. Let us not forget that the petition against the ISI for distributing funds among politicians in the 1990 elections is still pending before the superior court. No one dares to touch it.
Some have argued that let us forget legal questions because Shahbaz’s expulsion is a political step and should be seen as such. I not only respectfully but vehemently disagree. We are not yet a civilised nation but we have to move in that direction. The definition of a civilised nation is respect for law or rule of law. How can the legal aspects be forgotten? It is not just a question of Shahbaz Sharif. Every time someone’s fundamental rights are violated, my rights and the rights of every citizen in the country are abridged. If they can be high handed with him they can also be high handed with me. No man is an island said the poet and this is particularly true where questions of fundamental rights are concerned.
Who won or who lost politically is a meaningless debate in the current scenario and becomes relevant only in the long term. For the moment force has triumphed over principles and the political system put together after October 2002 has been protected. In the long term of course Shahbaz Sharif emerges as a huge winner.
He demonstrated courage by his willingness to face an unending jail term. He washed away the charge of capitulation against the house of Sharif levelled when most of its members sought exile in Saudi Arabia. By attempting to come back he vindicated his oft-repeated stance that he was forced to leave under duress. He also showed that he has what it takes to lead his party PML (N). From now on Shahbaz will have to be taken as a serious politician in his own right and not just as younger brother of Nawaz Sharif. At the end of the day he has restored his honour and the honour of his family. These are no ordinary achievements.
His coming was politically and strategically an important move. He galvanised his party by showing them that the Sharif family and he in particular are still a factor in national politics. His arrival also mobilised the party out of its hibernation and I at least was surprised by the spirited fight its workers put up under very adverse circumstances. A huge wave of sympathy for PML (N) and for the Sharifs also appears to have emerged with the inept handling of the entire episode by the government. Whenever there are free elections in the country, Shahbaz Sharif’s attempt to come back to the country would be a major vote getter for his party.
While there are these politically advantageous outcomes of Shahbaz’s visit they would only bear fruit in the future. For the moment his expulsion brings home the grim reality that we are still ruled by force. The situation on the ground is that nothing moves without a nod from up above. All the appearances of democracy are a sham.
How will this change? The really depressing thought is that change does not appear either easy or inevitable. We may be in the same mode of rule by force for a long time yet. The last refuge of a believer is prayer. Let us pray my friends for a better dispensation.
i heard that apparently at the lahore airport shabaz sharif was told that he'd be flown to adyala jail in pindi and thats why he was making those V signs at the airport...and then on the plane he was wondering why he's not reached pindi yet...but then he landed in saudia arabia...
whats the point of all this drama?
khair no political reasons but just from a humanist point of view i feel bad for the dude, come on he's pakistani please let him enter his own country. he has a right to this soil! us ka dil nai chahta ho ga lahore kee sarkon pe ghoomnay ka? apna watan is apna watan
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by karina: *
my question is a wierd one. is there any way india can help/pressurise pakistan into bringing back democracy? not that i envision it happening, but with the peace process and all, anything's possible. besides it'll be good for the whole region.
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yaar we dont want democracy. with our feudal system, true democracy (does that really exist? imho not) is unachievable...and the so called democracy we do have is just another form of dictatorship
atleast when there's military rule there isnt anarchy. i like it like this
Democracy with our feudal system is impossible? Maybe that's why India got rid of their feudal system soon after partition. It's a shame that the situation is so bad thPakistanis can't choose their own leaders and we are happy with that.
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*Originally posted by Mr Xtreme: *
Democracy with our feudal system is impossible? Maybe that's why India got rid of their feudal system soon after partition. It's a shame that the situation is so bad thPakistanis can't choose their own leaders and we are happy with that.
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Pakistan is pretty safe compared to other islamic nations, i am happy and i bet so are many other pakistani's...