Shameful Double Standards

Mods please DO NOT move this thread to the Pakistan 1 forum. There are a few points I am trying to make here. Thank you very Much, anh ha. Muchos Gracias, Grazie. etc… OK Plus it took me a while to color code this, I am not a technical person.
Point 1:
1,300 Donations totaling $133,000 vs $8300. Shame on Pakistan for not doing anything and to top it off letting the criminals free. unbelievable. Some generous muslims we are. Shame SHAME SHAME. See Green
Point 2:
The Americans that you all pakis on the forum hate, are the ones coming to the resue of this one poor woman that was raped because of some wonderful Islamic Law. Lovely Muslims, I gotta hand it to you all.:jazak: See Blue.
Point 3:
Denying visa to a reporter and yet opening up a web site to ask the “My dear Leader” any question. Come on this is gotta be the joke of the century. I want that commando president to come and answer my question I am pissed, I demand an answer. See Red.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/05/opinion/05kristof.html
One of the gutsiest people on earth is Mukhtaran Bibi. And after this week, she’ll need that courage just to survive.

Mukhtaran, a tall, slim young woman who never attended school as a child, lives in a poor and remote village in the Punjab area of Pakistan. As part of a village dispute in 2002, a tribal council decided to punish her family by sentencing her to be gang-raped. She begged and cried, but four of her neighbors immediately stripped her and carried out the sentence. Then her tormenters made her walk home naked while her father tried to shield her from the eyes of 300 villagers.

Mukhtaran was meant to be so shamed that she would commit suicide. But in a society where women are supposed to be soft and helpless, she proved indescribably tough, and she found the courage to live. She demanded the prosecution of her attackers, and six were sent to death row.

She received $8,300 in compensation and used it to start two schools in the village, one for boys and one for girls, because she feels that education is the best way to change attitudes like those that led to the attack on her. Illiterate herself, she then enrolled in her own elementary school.

I visited Mukhtaran in her village in September and wrote a column about her. Readers responded with an avalanche of mail, including 1,300 donations for Mukhtaran totaling $133,000.

The money arrived just in time, for Mukhtaran’s schools had run out of funds. She had sold her family’s cow to keep them open because she believes so passionately in the redemptive power of education.

Now that cash from readers has put the schools on a sound financial footing again. And Mercy Corps, a first-rate American aid group already active in Pakistan, has agreed to assist Mukhtaran in spending the money wisely. The next step will be to start an ambulance service for the area so sick or injured villagers can get to a hospital.

Down the road, Mukhtaran says, she will try to start her own aid group to battle honor killings. And even though she lives in a remote village without electricity, she has galvanized her supporters to launch a Web site: www.mukhtarmai.com. (Although her legal name is Mukhtaran Bibi, she is known in the Pakistani press by a variant, Mukhtar Mai).

Until two days ago, she was thriving. Then - disaster.

A Pakistani court overturned the death sentences of all six men convicted in the attack on her and ordered five of them freed. They are her neighbors and will be living alongside her. Mukhtaran was in the courthouse and collapsed in tears, fearful of the risk this brings to her family.

“Yes, there is danger,” she said by telephone afterward. “We are afraid for our lives, but we will face whatever fate brings for us.”

Mukhtaran, not the kind of woman to squander money on herself by flying, even when she has access to $133,000, took an exhausting 12-hour bus ride to Islamabad yesterday to appeal to the Supreme Court. Mercy Corps will help keep her in a safe location, and those donations from readers may keep her alive for the time being. But for the long term, Mukhtaran has always said she wants to stay in her village, whatever the risk, because that’s where she can make the most difference.

I had planned to be in Pakistan this week to write a follow-up column about Mukhtaran. But after a month’s wait, the Pakistani government has refused to give me a visa, presumably out of fear that I would write more about Pakistani nuclear peddling. (Hmm, a good idea. …)

Mukhtaran’s life illuminates what will be the central moral challenge of this century, the brutality that is the lot of so many women and girls in poor countries. For starters, because of inattention to maternal health, a woman dies in childbirth in the developing world every minute.

In Pakistan, if a woman reports a rape, four Muslim men must generally act as witnesses before she can prove her case. Otherwise, she risks being charged with fornication or adultery - and suffering a public whipping and long imprisonment.

Mukhtaran is a hero. She suffered what in her society was the most extreme shame imaginable - and emerged as a symbol of virtue. She has taken a sordid story of perennial poverty, gang rape and judicial brutality and inspired us with her faith in the power of education - and her hope

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cool…:k:…hero nahi heroine kehtai hain… for starters at least at least get the genders right for positive traits and give due credit in a gender sensitive manner…talk abt double standards…:flower1:

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Verizon

how much have you sent to mukhtaran mai

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ghulail: hero is just fine, heroine is used in the subcontinent mostly.
rebelx I like to remain anonymous. thank you.

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My suggesstion to mai - pick up an AK47 & make herself believe in the very simple logic of revenge. Kill the bloody rapists with her own hands. Bandit queen (phoolan devi) did it & what a revenge that was...ministers & high dignataries were murdered, now this is revenge, I want her to do the same...kill those 4 rapists, the bystanders that were watching there helpless, & the bloody jirga members that made this decision, including those who defended this decision.

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No need to compare the amount of donations. $8300 for Pakistan is equivalent to $8,300,000 for the US. So the good old americans still lag behind with their measly 133,000. Tell them to send more.

Nowhere was it ever said that the rape was committed as the result of an 'Islamic law'. The western media is the only one that has done so, otherwise, everyone in Pakistan knows this was a tribal jirga, which had $hit to do with Islam, and everything to do with ignorance. Its a matter of common sense.

Now as to why the reporter was refused a visa, I wonder why he didnt mention the actual reason for the refusal. He was more keen on mentioning nuclear proliferation, of which US itself is one of the biggest culprits.

And noone seems to care about justice....everyone seems to want the men tried and convicted, period. Noone seems bothered by the fact that those men were essentially tried and convicted by the media, not by the courts, and that is what the court wanted to ensure, since there was practically no evidence presented by the prosecution, other than what was written in newspapers. Thats not how cases are presented. Thats not how justice is carried out. This is akin to mob mentality, and basically is meant to approve anything and everything a mob wants. If the men are guilty, then the prosecution shouldnt have any problem presenting a viable case against them.

The guy wanted a story, he got it. Mukhtar mai is a sort of a social worker now, and God help her in anythign and everythign she wants to do. They want to make the world believe that shes alive and eating because of the mercy corps and the generous americans, and that if they go, she will die either of hunger, or of murder. Thats far from it. Shes doing fine...she has govt support and protection. But at the same time, one has to realize the fact that this is Pakistan. We dont have the resources to be able to provide every such victim with the kind of facilities that one woudl get in the west. But the western media and reporters are quite good at riling up feelings by generating such ill-advised reports for their newspapers. $133,000 for mukhtar mai. Do they know there are more than 50 million people in Pakistan who are worse off than mukhtar mai? When will they receive their $133,000 checks?
But oh well, he got his story, even without a visa.

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^ forget the dollar comparison. What the hek are you pakistanis doing to change your legal and governance systems to address this sort of primitive chauvinism? anything?

Yes, every country has its violators but this seems to be the law and the norm in pakistan?

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unfortunately i agree with atlantis....the laws must be changed - actually what malik suggested was perfect but i wanted to add on.... before killing the rapists, bystanders, jirga members they shud be stripped naked...their $$$$ chopped of and then killed and that shud happen in public

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I am actually disappointed with Akif. I do agree wiht homer and atlantis myself. the laws need to be changed. My point however was more geared towards US haters, that even in Pakistan US was trying to do good things and still we have people that hate us. Thats all.

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Atalntis it is not the norm in Pakistan. It is easy to generalise. How many thousands of cases have you seen like this every year. Of course not even one case is acceptable but than show me a country where such things dont happen. Burning women for not bringing dowry is quite common in some countries, does that mean it is the norm there.

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^ may be it's just that this type of cases get most press. Some really rotten cases happen in India also, or for that matter in the US or any country.

The part I was referring to was that it appears the group that meted out the barbaric 'revenge' punishment, is the local authority / court. If that's not the case I take back what I said.

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**Pakistan queries rape acquittals **

Mai’s is one of many such cases in Pakistan. The Pakistan government is to appeal against the acquittal of five men convicted of a gang-rape in a so-called “honour” punishment. They had been sentenced to death but the verdict was overturned by the Lahore High Court last Thursday.

Mukhtar Mai was raped in 2002 as an alleged punishment after her younger brother was falsely accused of sexually assaulting a woman from a senior clan.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4323801.stm

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What law needs to be changed? The punishment for a rapist is a death sentence. You guys are displaying the same mob mentality that the jirga displayed when it used mob pressure to decide on a rape sentence.

The law is fine and fair. Death for a rapist. However, there is this small issue of actually proving the damn thing. If no proof were required, and one were to go by what the crowd says, then why not just toss out all the prosecutors...let the judge listen to a mob...or read newspapers. Oh, that group of 100 villagers says these 15 guys raped this girl....so kill these 15. Get a grip.

The formula is simple. Prove it, and the punishment will be handed out. The prosecution did NOT provide any irrefutable evidence. The prosecution messed up. Blame the prosecution, NOT the law. Mukhtar Mai was first victimized by her village jirga, and then she was victimized by the prosecution. Such messed up prosecutors are found all over the world, in america, in europe, in any country out there.

And america does not have anything to do with this case. I couldnt care less if the mercy corps donates a thousand or a million. They are mostly opportunity seekers, armed with a brigade of reporters looking for a cheap way to make a big story.

And to expand on it more, its not as if such cases are not prosecuted in Pakistan. The bigger problem here is lack of reporting. Not all women are bold and courageous like Mukhtar Mai to go ahead and report their ordeal, and try to make a difference. Most of the women just roll up, either commit suicide (as mukhtar mai was expected to do), or just keep quiet, and die with their horrid secret. These women need to be made aware that they have avenues in courts. They need to be educated. The jirgas are not illegal, but their powers are limited, and not all villagers know that. Jirgas can only decide on local non criminal issues. For criminal issues, they must report to the courts. This is something the local population does not know, and is never made aware of. Lack of education here is the culprit. Even with free schooling provided by the Punjab govt, parents dont want to send their kids to school. Now the govt cannot make kids go to school at gunpoint. The parents have to take responsibility.

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good lecture mate? u talking about proving it? that too in Pakistan? How hell did the damn courts free them then? maybe u don't understand that In pakistan corruption rules.

[QUOTE]
Originally Posted by Atlantis
What the hek are you pakistanis doing to change your legal and governance systems to address this sort of primitive chauvinism? anything?
[/QUOTE]

whats wrong with this statement why don't we change our systems....

No matter what u think , I believe I thought of a right form of punishment....Why is this sort of punishment necessary...It is necessary because it serves as a lesson for these a$$holes.....

[QUOTE]
And america does not have anything to do with this case. I couldnt care less if the mercy corps donates a thousand or a million. They are mostly opportunity seekers, armed with a brigade of reporters looking for a cheap way to make a big story.
[/QUOTE]

man atleast they donating money for the unjustice that happened in our country (no one wud have told anything against them if they didn't donate)....americans no matter how bad we think about them do care about these issues...I am not talking about Bush's bloody govt. I am talking about general public....

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Its not a lecture. Its a dose of reality. I live in Pakistan, and I know that corruption does not rule if you look for legal avenues. The public seems to rely on shortcuts, which is what gives rise to corruption.

Lets use some logic. This case has gotten so much media attention, you think that the Pak govt would allow corruption to dictate the course of this case? We have already gotten so much negative publicity from this case, I dont think the govt wants to worsen it by favoring the criminal jirgas in any way. The government has already appealed against the High court verdict. Let justice take its course. Lets not play judge from your PC. The court freed the men because the judge did not find any viable evidence against them out of whatever the prosecution presented in its case. The court took the legal route, which it is supposed to do. Everyone is innocent 'until proven guilty'. Those men were not proven guilty. Simple as that. I believe they were guilty, and should be shot. But the prosecution has to prove their guilt first. Lets have some DNA evidence. If no evidence is available, then lets get some credible eyewitnesses. Lets not rely on he said she said.

Now regarding the donations, they were not 'to prevent' any injustice. The money donated by the americans was to keep the school running, which by the way she started with the money she got from Pakistan. She just didnt invest that money wisely, which is why she ran out of it so quickly.

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Akif, yes everyone should be deemed innocent until proven guilty. Now let's talk about this case. I will state my understanding and if I am inaccurate I will appreciate being corrected.

A lad was alleged to have had an affair with a lassie from an affluent family. The aff.family did not approve of it - the council (jirga?) decided that the lad should be taught a lesson and DECREED that the way to punish the lad was to mandate his sis to be raped.

Q1. Is this factually wrong in any part?
Q2. If not then, the council being the legal authority, we'll be right to say the laws of the land AND/OR governance of the land under the prevailing laws of the land are very seriously flawed, primitive and chauvinistic.

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the council isnt the legal authority atlantis. they had no legal jursidiction, otherwise this wouldnt have become a court case to begin with.

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^ in that case why aren't the members of the council in jail for inciting, aiding and abetting the rape? (Were they even charged?) I understand only the gang that went to commit the crime were charged.

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I'm guessing you have to convict people for a rape before you can convict people of inciting it. as you may see the prosecution is having difficulty doing that.

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Atlantis, lets first agree that we are on the same page here. We both believe a horrible crime was committed, not only by the rapists, but by the jirga as well. Now the question is how to punish them. And for that, the real legal authority, i-e, the courts, must prove the jirga’s complicity in the case.
Just to give you an example, whenever a mob goes on a rampage in Pakistan because of some strike, police fire tear gas on them, and round up anyone and everyone they can lay their hands on…even innocent bystanders. Those people are then made to sit in jails for years on end, with no trial, and no reason. This is what the High court judge wanted to avoid here, since the guys are being charged with a very serious crime.