Re: Shameful Double Standards
Verizon bhaijaan, double standard are everywhere; if the claimant of most civilized country in the world can actively make nuclear bombs and at the same time use the UN to stop others from making the same thing than what is a few hundred thousand dollars in a country like Pakistan with a literacy rate in the 30s?
Re: Shameful Double Standards
Wow - I was watching this thread develop and I was amazed - even though it is a matter is a matter of record that the woman was raped and it is a matter of record that the council ordered this, she still must offer proof?
Hopefully I am wrong in reading some of these replies, but what kind of twisted logic is that. No one disputed the fact that it happened, why now must she offer proof?
So, if one is ordered to be raped by a public governing council (in those areas, they are governing councils, whether you personally recognize that or not), raped in public, driven naked through a village after the rape in front of 300 people (surely that is enough eyewitnesses, or does Pakistan court demand a minimum of 500), what on earth is left to prove?
Akif - please explain what absolute proof would be to you that the prosecution would need? I thought things conducted in a public arena in front a whole village would constitute proof, not a he said she said senario. It is a matter of record, what is more public than that? Did I miss something?
Re: Shameful Double Standards
minah_pa, matter of record does not equate to proof. See O.J. Simpson.
Look, I am not saying thoes responsible should go free, indeed , they should be convicted and punished.
Re: Shameful Double Standards
Kaleem - difference is there weren't multiple witnesses to OJ's murder but there were to this particular rape. Difference is OJ's wife and lover weren't publically sentenced to die and then murdered in front of a village. Difference is the bodies weren't carried through the city as proof it happened, but a naked woman was driven through her village as proof it happened.
I wasn't arguing that anyone thought they should go free, I see that nearly everyone agreed that they should be convicted and punished. I was addressing the issue of proof and the amount that seemed to be needed in order to actually have these guys convicted and the sentence carried out.
Re: Shameful Double Standards
minah_ph, Let me ask you this? One can compare the DNA and bloody socks as clear proof that O. J. Simpson was indeed a murderer. Why than was he let go?
If your answer was that evidence was not compelling enough or prosecution botched the case than the same applies here. Maybe the people who witnessed the "naked woman parade" did not have the courage to come forward and testify or maybe they were bought off or they were threatened etc. In a nutshell, prosecution did not present the case in a manner where conviction was warranted.
Re: Shameful Double Standards
Every country has its own yardstick by which it measures legal issues. Will a person be hanged in the US or India for raping a woman.. I very much doubt it... But in Pakistan, the pendulum usually swings to the extremes... If not for public pressure, the men would have gone free... to do what they please.. A Nation's laws and the enactment of these laws cannot and should not be held hostage to public views alone...
Re: Shameful Double Standards
Pakistani court overturned the decision and the rapists will stay in prison. I like when Judicial system comes to GS and see's my concered posts and changes their stance. One up for pakistani judicial system. Now only if they could change some other laws and a few consititutional ammendments.
Re: Shameful Double Standards
Yes minah_pa…you missed something. I never disputed the fact that she was unfortunately, gang raped at the behest of the village council. What I said was that the group of men that was ‘randomly’ rounded up based on heresay and fingerpointing, had to be proven as the rapists, and those who ordered it.
Im sure a group of men ordered the gangrape…and Im sure a group of men committed the gangrape. What Im not sure is that the men currently in jail are the ones who did it. The prosecution did not prove them to be the ones. The prosecution relied on media reports. That is why the judge threw it out. But now as we have it, the sharia court has overturned the high courts decision and reinstated the death sentences for these 6 men again.
I just hope that none of these 6 men is innocent, because what that means is that some guilty person is out there, roaming free.
Re: Shameful Double Standards
^^ BTW Akif I just found out that in Pakistan a woman has to produce 4 witnesses that she was raped. Care to opine? It's in the Islamic Law thread in WA.
Re: Shameful Double Standards
That poor girls tears says it all, she recognized those *******s, this is proof enough, her dad was present, kill those *******s, they DONT deserve to live, they carried an heinous crime in the name of honor.
If I could inspire the lady, I would ask her to pick up an AK47 & shoot them down in cold blood, even if it meant her life is at risk. At least those barbarians wont roam free.
Re: Shameful Double Standards
Verizon...Im not a religious scholar, so Im in no position to opine on this. If something is clear cut, I can quote that, but for scholarly stuff, youre talking to the wrong person.
In any case, I think you missed my point. Mukhtar mai does not have to prove she was raped. The prosecution does not have to prove that she was raped. The prosecution has to prove WHO raped her. And since there was more than one person in this case, including several who did not commit the act, but ordered it, and hence were equally complicit, it is all the more important to be ultra careful in making sure the person you are putting on death row is indeed the one.
You must remember that this was as much a tribal dispute as a rape. And its not out of the question to think that in a fit of rage, people may have randomly pointed out the wrong people, just because they were from the same tribe as the rapists.
Justice must be served, and its the courts responsibility to ensure that it is served to the actual offenders, not the offenders cousins, or tribe mates.
Re: Shameful Double Standards
Verizon uncle i think the talibans were doing exactly to what you are agreeing here ? dont u thing that’s an oxymoron from you ?
Re: Shameful Double Standards
^^ No offence but can you elaborate cause I am sort of lost. I dont see myself agreeing with Taliban in the quote.
Re: Shameful Double Standards
Akif - I see your point and I do agree with you. But in this case in particular, it seems as though everything is cut and dried. There were witnesses, a village to be exact. It is know who ordered the rape, the council (from what I understand from a few tribal people I know) is the same group of people everytime, so there would be no mistake there. As for who actually did it, they had to say they did in order to fulfill the sentences, there should be no mistake there, so why let people go who were convicted? I think way too much consideration is being made for the men who committed this crime and far too less of the woman who had to live through this.
In a way it would re-inforce it to every woman that it is impossible to get justice in a system like that. The negative impact of that would be women who will suffer in silence.
Re: Shameful Double Standards
minah...the reason the court showed a considerable amount of consideration for the alleged rapists is because it was a matter of life and death. The judge would be ordering these men be killed. Now imagine if one of them was innocent.
I really dont know the intricate details of the case, but what I believe happened was this. The village jirgas are made up of several senior members of the village. Its like a panel of judges. And I dont think they only pass unanimous decisions. They simply go by whatever the majority says. So what I think happened was that out of 5 judges, 3 said yes to rape, and 2 said no. And the decision was passed because of majority having voted yes. Now since the decision does not mention which judge said yes to the rape, and which one said no, the people dont know the complete truth. The people simply believe that the entire jirga was in on it. Hence, what happened was that the villagers, and Mukhtar mai herself simply pointed out the entire jirga.
My guess is the high court judge had tried to parse out the actual culprits by overturning their death sentences. But now that the sharia court has already reversed that decision, all 6 of those men will be put to death. Now imagine being a jirga member who had voted against the rape, and is on death row. Putting him to death would be as big an injustice as denying Mukhtar mai justice.
Re: Shameful Double Standards
Akif - Respectfully, putting them to death is justice. If that is the penalty for rape in Pakistan and they ordered a rape (whether or not unanimously, it was ordered by that panel as a whole). I understand what a jirga is, my husband and his family are from a tribal area and his people have them. By placing an order to have a woman raped they have destroyed a woman's life. This woman was not even directly involved in the events that happened (if they were true, I know they were determined not to be later) and she was punished without thought at all. That showed recklessness and disregard for a person's life and well-being and an extreme lack of leadership.
Unfortunately, whether they voted against it or not, they were silent when the sentence was handed out which leaves them as guilty as someone who voted for it.
I just got done talking to an eldery person from the same village as my husband and with my husband. They both say that jirga is held in an open area not behind closed doors. So, if any had protested, people would have known who didn't want to have this done. Jirga's are not held behind closed doors, it is open to all who go.
Re: Shameful Double Standards
"(whether or not unanimously, it was ordered by that panel as a whole)."
minah...surely individual opposition means something here. We cannot generalize, specially on an issue like this which involves deadly consequences. Take the UN security council. Out of the 15 members, only 9 have to vote yes, with no vetos, in order to approve a decision. That doesnt mean the 6 members that voted 'no' were in on it. And frankly, what say would the minority have in it anyway. (G. Bush got elected as the president, but this was not the decision of 'all' the americans. This was the decision of the 'majority' of the americans.)
Regarding jirgas and panchayats, they are held differently in different areas. Jirgas held in the pathan tribes are totally different and elusive. This case was from a Punjabi village, that does not fall under FATA (federal and tribal areas). Baluchi jirgas are different from the both of them. And sindhis again, are different. So its a bit hard to go by precedence here. The jirgas may be held in public, but decisions are made in secrecy.
My only point is, if even one person out of the entire jirga said no to the rape, he was innocent and deserves to be treated as one. And to expect him to have done anything more than just saying no would be unrealistic. Chances are, if he had said something more than just voting no, hed have been slayed as well.
Lets just pray that the ones being put on death row are indeed the ones who either ordered the rape, or committed it.
Re: Shameful Double Standards
Akif wrong was done and lower courts in Pakistan which are usually influenced by the feudal lords over turned the decision. That has been rectified and that is no longer the case. The judicial system in Pakistan and India is of very low quality and needs to be compltely over-hauled not upgraded, if both the countries need to be in the globalization race. as the geographical borders are eliminated in the globalization efforts the civil law needs to be looked at and over-hauled to accomodate for change.
Thomas Paine in rights of man said, and I dont remember the exact words but soemthing to the effect that man-made laws need to be changed and relooked at every 100 years to accomdate change.
Re: Shameful Double Standards
Kashif no doubt wrong was done. And justice must be served.
I dont think it was a lower court. It was the Multan bench of the Lahore High court that ordered the release. From what I heard, the Sharia court had overturned the High courts decision. But last night I heard on the news that 4 of the 6 accused have in fact been released, pursuant to the High courts decision. The remaining 2 are in jail...one serving life sentence instead of death, and the other being held on an unrelated robbery charge.
So I dont know whats going on, really. Just praying for justice.