Jadoo aur uska Ilaaj - Iqbal salafi 1/2 - YouTube
Jadoo aur uska Ilaaj - Iqbal salafi 2/2 Sawal o Jawab - YouTube
Re: SHAITAN / SATAN - The Leader of EVIL
for sharing. Already seen before 
Re: SHAITAN / SATAN - The Leader of EVIL
Lethal kamikaze,
That's so much valuable info for those who seek. So surprised to see such people exist today. These lectures are so honest they can transform a person I think. We have the solution to all the problems right here with us. So many practices considered to be normal in Muslim societies today are not even Islamic. My entire belief system (except for the 7 pillers) and what I grew up learning is not Islamic. It's a great reminder for us all. I think all the Muslim families with 'Sufi' background need this reminder. It is He who chooses to enlighten. It's upto us how much open we are to receive the enlightenment. These lectures are a blessing the troubled Muslims can benefit from.
Re: SHAITAN / SATAN - The Leader of EVIL
:lkk:
Re: SHAITAN / SATAN - The Leader of EVIL
SubhanAllah nice topic, relevant to our time
I would like to look at what this guy iqbal salafi says in detail
I have just watched upto 8mins where he called someone he has in mind as a shaitan
IT SHOULD BE REMEMBERED THAT IQBAL SALAFI HIMSELF BELONGS TO A MOVEMENT THAT HAS BEEN CALLED ''HORN OF SATAN". This has come from scholars so its not something that is easily retractable.
It should be remembered that iqbal salafi belongs to a movement that is well known to have left the Jamaah, thus is open to devouring by Shaitan as per hadith.
I consider myself sunni (not wahabi) and usually i do defend sufis and even those suspected of being jahil sufis, commonly the attacks on these people have an unfair element. Its nice to have a video which now from ulema of these people to see their prospective
If I can make further statements I will be relying on you guys, supporters, sympathizers and Abd'als [Abdul Wahabi] of the wahabi movement and indeed others who just wish to offer a counter point, to offer the counter argument. So that we can think about and appreciate the full scope of the situation
Re: SHAITAN / SATAN - The Leader of EVIL
So first relevant question/point of discussion
He says he knows of someone who can tell you about your state 100%, and that he has checked this himself and has confirmed it. He asks the question who are these people getting help from then.
He says your objective is to refute this man, that this is not ilm e ghaib, and you must do this with daleel [evidence]
He says the Quran says 'My Messenger says from Himself nothing but whatever The Prophet Sallaallahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam says is Wahi from Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala'
he says: Now does this man have any power that is greater then The Nabi's that he can just tell you by looking
so he says: in the hadith we are told that there was a man called saf ibn Sayyad?, the dajjal?] who knew about people condition of the heart, and the Prophet of Allah [SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam] exposed him after hearing from the man that he knew knowledge of the ghaib and could even see the throne of shaitan at sea. The Prophet of Allah [SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam] read some ayats of Surah Ad-Dukhan (44) in His Heart, which was not understandable to saf except that the word 'smoke' had been recited...
..to which the Prophet of Allah [SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam] said you are the biggest [Zalil], so according to us this [sufi] is the biggest wali, of whom - of the shaitan
end of summary of his initial speech
Re: SHAITAN / SATAN - The Leader of EVIL
vroom, I myself belong to a sufi muslim family which follows many UNISLAMIC customs & those traditions which are forbidden by Quran & sunnah are practiced. Obviously because those unislamic traditions forbidden by Quran & sunnah were adopted from hindus with whom our forefathers lived. They believe in fortune telling, numerologists, palmists, sufis who claim to know & predict your future (Forbidden by Quran & sunnah), music / musical instruments are not looked down upon rather considered "art", covering of hair is totally not followed, cultural traditions are followed religiously even if they're against the teachings of Quran & sunnah, going to mazars of the ancient deceased, give away charity food, etc., celebrating death anniversaries & giving away food/clothes in the deceased name, little or incorrect knowledge of the Quran & sunnah, and all those unislamic practices I mentioned above are not discouraged but admired & followed. Only one cousin when she tried to explain to the elders, everyone became ruthless labeling her as extremist & what not. Well, maybe her way of explaining that we follow hindu traditions was harsh. I, on the other hand also agreed with my elders on almost everything except for a few things which I knew from various resources are clearly unislamic. Like, my family thinks numerology, palmistry is 'science'. I have been researching on some of those beliefs in my family for last 2-3 years. 2-3 weeks ago, found these videos on the internet & they answer all of my questions. I was looking for answers to many questions. And these lectures answered all. I am in no way extremist or even religious. But whatever this guy says makes every sense. Most importantly, it has answered so many questions which my elders could not answer. Now I feel like I have been living in jahalat all these years. When we follow the Quran & sunnah they way it is, that does not make us extremist. I used to think just like every other Pakistani muslim family majority of who are Sufi muslims anyway. And to get my answers, I was also praying to Allah to guide me to the right direction.
He says something very nice in the videos along the lines of, "If something brings you good but it is against the teachings of the Quran & sunnah then know that it is from shaitan even if it brings you good temporarily. Because shaitan is at war with God and His prophets especially the last prophet." So I understand that the great deceiver has to deceive people & to deceive the masses he has to gain their trust. & to gain their trust, he has to promise & give them something good. But if that "good" is against the teachings of the Quran & sunnah then IT IS NOT GOOD. Rather it is a TRAP... for us by making us believe it is good for us.... to take us with him to the hellfire.... That is why he is called the great deceiver. He is just fulfilling his challenge to God. To take with him as many ignorants as possible... To be honest, these lectures have completely transformed the way I used to think... I feel Im a new person... I had all those questions for many years but now I have the answers.... So... though I am not going to drastically change my life style but adopt the transformation slowly... Am sure going to discourage all those pagan traditions in the family because they take us far from the true knowledge and wisdom. If they dont want to change, upto to them. But I cant allow myself to continue living like a jahil when I have acquired the knowledge.
And I am not going to associate myself with any religious sector. I am just a muslim & Ill try to follow the Quran & sunnah moderately but surely discard all the forbidden things. I dont like to call myself salafi or wahabi or sufi or whatever.... Just a muslim & follow the Quran & sunnah... Offcourse, that will put me directly at war with shaitan. Well, I dont care how the deceiver's agents (shayateens) in humans & jinns attack me because with Quran with me, I can fight them. Slow transition but I intend to change & finally become a muslim as till now, I was a muslim only by name I think.
Re: SHAITAN / SATAN - The Leader of EVIL
You have summarized that part of the video but what is your question?
So first relevant question/point of discussion
He says he knows of someone who can tell you about your state 100%, and that he has checked this himself and has confirmed it. He asks the question who are these people getting help from then.
He says your objective is to refute this man, that this is not ilm e ghaib, and you must do this with daleel [evidence]
He says the Quran says 'My Messenger says from Himself nothing but whatever The Prophet Sallaallahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam says is Wahi from Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala'
he says: Now does this man have any power that is greater then The Nabi's that he can just tell you by looking
so he says: in the hadith we are told that there was a man called saf ibn Sayyad?, the dajjal?] who knew about people condition of the heart, and the Prophet of Allah [SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam] exposed him after hearing from the man that he knew knowledge of the ghaib and could even see the throne of shaitan at sea. The Prophet of Allah [SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam] read some ayats of Surah Ad-Dukhan (44) in His Heart, which was not understandable to saf except that the word 'smoke' had been recited...
..to which the Prophet of Allah [SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam] said you are the biggest [Zalil], so according to us this [sufi] is the biggest wali, of whom - of the shaitan
end of summary of his initial speech
Re: SHAITAN / SATAN - The Leader of EVIL
vroom, I myself belong to a sufi muslim family which follows many UNISLAMIC customs & those traditions which are forbidden by Quran & sunnah are practiced. Obviously because those unislamic traditions forbidden by Quran & sunnah were adopted from hindus with whom our forefathers lived. They believe in fortune telling, numerologists, palmists, sufis who claim to know & predict your future (Forbidden by Quran & sunnah), music / musical instruments are not looked down upon rather considered "art", covering of hair is totally not followed, cultural traditions are followed religiously even if they're against the teachings of Quran & sunnah, going to mazars of the ancient deceased, give away charity food, etc., celebrating death anniversaries & giving away food/clothes in the deceased name, little or incorrect knowledge of the Quran & sunnah, and all those unislamic practices I mentioned above are not discouraged but admired & followed. Only one cousin when she tried to explain to the elders, everyone became ruthless labeling her as extremist & what not. Well, maybe her way of explaining that we follow hindu traditions was harsh. I, on the other hand also agreed with my elders on almost everything except for a few things which I knew from various resources are clearly unislamic. Like, my family thinks numerology, palmistry is 'science'. I have been researching on some of those beliefs in my family for last 2-3 years. 2-3 weeks ago, found these videos on the internet & they answer all of my questions. I was looking for answers to many questions. And these lectures answered all. I am in no way extremist or even religious. But whatever this guy says makes every sense. Most importantly, it has answered so many questions which my elders could not answer. Now I feel like I have been living in jahalat all these years. When we follow the Quran & sunnah they way it is, that does not make us extremist. I used to think just like every other Pakistani muslim family majority of who are Sufi muslims anyway. And to get my answers, I was also praying to Allah to guide me to the right direction.
You do have some good points, and indeed some of the traditions of your family are questionable, jahil. and Hindus are possibly the closest match to Makkan mushrikeen [the ideology that Islam battled against] that I know of
You seem balanced, MashAllah
The subjects you have touched upon are too much for me to reply to here, from my prospective. I will say The views you have expressed have Merit from your prospective. That much is true
Every point you have mentioned is deserving of discussion
What shall we do then, shall we discuss your families state first or shall we discuss whether Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala or shaitan [the rejected] is the provider of the ilm of the sufi?
This is what I had intended to discuss, as your background prospective was not known to me
[quote]
He says something very nice in the videos along the lines of, "If something brings you good but it is against the teachings of the Quran & sunnah then know that it is from shaitan even if it brings you good temporarily. Because shaitan is at war with God and His prophets especially the last prophet." So I understand that the great deceiver has to deceive people & to deceive the masses he has to gain their trust. & to gain their trust, he has to promise & give them something good. But if that "good" is against the teachings of the Quran & sunnah then IT IS NOT GOOD. Rather it is a TRAP... for us by making us believe it is good for us.... to take us with him to the hellfire.... That is why he is called the great deceiver. He is just fulfilling his challenge to God. To take with him as many ignorants as possible... To be honest, these lectures have completely transformed the way I used to think... I feel Im a new person... I had all those questions for many years but now I have the answers.... So... though I am not going to drastically change my life style but adopt the transformation slowly... Am sure going to discourage all those pagan traditions in the family because they take us far from the true knowledge and wisdom. If they dont want to change, upto to them. But I cant allow myself to continue living like a jahil when I have acquired the knowledge.
And I am not going to associate myself with any religious sector. I am just a muslim & Ill try to follow the Quran & sunnah moderately but surely discard all the forbidden things. I dont like to call myself salafi or wahabi or sufi or whatever.... Just a muslim & follow the Quran & sunnah... Offcourse, that will put me directly at war with shaitan. Well, I dont care how the deceiver's agents (shayateens) in humans & jinns attack me because with Quran with me, I can fight them. Slow transition but I intend to change & finally become a muslim as till now, I was a muslim only by name I think.
[/QUOTE]
Good points through out, with the detail given. The warning is that if you remove yourself from the Jamaah, by your beliefs, [no longer sunni but have wahabi beliefs on certain things] that would be a mistake. Stay with the community of Muslims that have existed since the time of The Prophet SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam, known as Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah [they believe in aid at Mazaarat for example, but the permission for young women to visit is not allowed according to my imams!!!] So everything has a prospective, Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah are not hindus or hindu influenced but everything has an Islamic prospective. It is true that sometimes what the people do is not inline with Islam, sometimes it is, and sometimes those who forbid an action do so too harshly or from a wrong prospective [not islamic, meaning shaitanic]
On your last point, of the attack of the shaitan, remember if he attacks you and you feel saddened that has been given in the Hadith as sign of Imaan :)
SubhanAllah
You have summarized that part of the video but what is your question?
From whom does the Ilm of the Sufi come from
Re: SHAITAN / SATAN - The Leader of EVIL
No no no, I dont want to discuss the affairs of my family. But I was just telling you that I am not an extremist or even religious either from family background or now after the mental transformation of my beliefs. You said 'wahabism' is considered to be "HORN OF SHAITAN", So I wanted to clarify a few things about myself because people on public forums especially in religious discussions assume too much. So yes, we should discuss the points made in the lectures in the videos.
Secondly, when I googled 'wahabism', I got:
"Wahhabism or Wahhabi mission is a religious movement or sect or form of Sunni Islam variously described as "orthodox", "ultraconservative"..."
So, I dont know but I dont think by following the quran & sunnah just the way it is would make me "conservative"... or WAHABI.... As I do not ever want to associate myself with any sector..... SUNNI Muslim offcourse but never further into 100s of 1000s of segregated sectors.
Thirdly, after carefully listening to the lectures, I completely believe that the customs, traditions & practices in sufi Islam which defy teachings of the quran & sunnah come from pagans / hinduism. And there are sufi muslim jinns, just like there are sufi muslim humans.... and those mazaars are populated by sufi muslim jinns... who help the humans visitors in their matters & difficulties... Now I dont have a problem with that & believe it's all good as long as the sufi muslims are asking ALLAH for help & no element of SHIRK is involved. But if the humans visit mazars and seek help from the deceased's soul or anyone other than the creator.... that is where the problem begins... And offcourse people are deceived by the agents of the great deceiver into believing that the mazars are more sacred than ALLAH & his worship and reguler places of worship like mosques.
Re: SHAITAN / SATAN - The Leader of EVIL
This is not a reply to anyone but An emotional argument countered by an emotional argument: In defense of Jahil Muslims [would you believe it]
On defense of the Jahil people as we find them today - I, vroom, sometimes think- That they are somewhat justified to go kufr [turn on their heels] because it has been the Aqeedah of the Muslims that The Prophet SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam tasted death but is Alive in His Grave at His Blessed Garden [Garden from the Gardens of Jannah] in Medina. It is my impression that in times gone, The Muslims have believed this. Now we have a people who spread rumors that the Prophet of Allah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam is dead dead ASTAGFIRULLAH
and they certainly heavily say those in the Graves are dead dead when the Dawa of Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala, afaik, is that they will be given Life. And not to even think of them as DEAD
It Can Not BE that we were never guided [which would be another radd [refutation] of Islam]
This [rumor spreading] is being done from a headquarters in Saudi [the place of Our Nabi named after a family of kings, who are given kingship as long as they continue to support the dawa of ibn Abdul Wahhab and his Ahl [known as Aal Ash Shaykh] an imamate system similar to what is given to AhulBayt of our Prophet SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam by sunnis]. We can also research on the sum of money [billions buying the iman of Muslims] that has been spent in this quest
Ya Batil you refute Islam and occupy the islamic land, you spread kufr, you tie the hand of Muslims, you cause hatred towards us, it is you who is spreading shirk and kufr. and I have seen what you do
the ordinary people who are involved in acts prohibited in the shariah are better then you, and you who is outwardly calling to Islam are a KAFFIR* and you refused to make sajda to Adam Alaihis Salam
and if you claim I have got the wrong man, then tell me would you prostrate to Adam Alaihis Salam, [and thus is your heart already bowed to Him]
*not aimed at any one in particular
Re: SHAITAN / SATAN - The Leader of EVIL
No no no, I dont want to discuss the affairs of my family. But I was just telling you that I am not an extremist or even religious either from family background or now after the mental transformation of my beliefs. You said 'wahabism' is considered to be "HORN OF SHAITAN", So I wanted to clarify a few things about myself because people on public forums especially in religious discussions assume too much. So yes, we should discuss the points made in the lectures in the videos.
According to Sunni Islam you should be Religious, and Believing [sometimes seen as extremist, but here i am not talking about those known as extremists in the news]
Lets discuss the lecture, yes and I do NOT know what the outcome will be, but i know of a few Islamic Concepts on the Subject that need to be Believed. The same thing that 'fraud walis' play on, actually. They play on them and we can not deny them outright afaik, this may change depending on what is contributed
[QUOTE]
Secondly, when I googled 'wahabism', I got:
"Wahhabism or Wahhabi mission is a religious movement or sect or form of Sunni Islam variously described as "orthodox", "ultraconservative"..."
So, I dont know but I dont think by following the quran & sunnah just the way it is would make me "conservative"... or WAHABI.... As I do not ever want to associate myself with any sector..... SUNNI Muslim offcourse but never further into 100s of 1000s of segregated sectors.
[/QUOTE]
The internet is almost controlled by wahabis, so the definition you have got is perhaps biased in their favor. Wahabism is not orthodox nor mainstream. Its emotional state is not inline with muslims, and some of the issue of this are mentioned above in my outburst.
Sunni Islam does NOT allow for sects, at all. We must all believe and believe correctly
There is Quran ayats that tell us that those who divide into sects have nothing to do with Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala and His Messenger SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam. The Muslims have generally interpreted this as a reference to Aqeedah (beliefs) and not to Fiqh (permissible and impermissible). So aqeedah is what unifies, if it is the same
[Quote]
Thirdly, after carefully listening to the lectures, I completely believe that the customs, traditions & practices in sufi Islam which defy teachings of the quran & sunnah come from pagans / hinduism. And there are sufi muslim jinns, just like there are sufi muslim humans.... and those mazaars are populated by sufi muslim jinns... who help the humans visitors in their matters & difficulties... Now I dont have a problem with that & believe it's all good as long as the sufi muslims are asking ALLAH for help & no element of SHIRK is involved. But if the humans visit mazars and seek help from the deceased's soul or anyone other than the creator.... that is where the problem begins... And offcourse people are deceived by the agents of the great deceiver into believing that the mazars are more sacred than ALLAH & his worship and reguler places of worship like mosques.
[/Quote]
Lovely my subject of choice - Shirk. All other subjects are suspended till we find common ground on this
According to Sunni Islam, Allah Subhanhu wa Ta'ala has commanded a certain type of person to go a Grave and Ask from Him inside the Grave, or ask with Him inside the Blessed Garden [Grave] In the Quran. [SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam]
The seeking of aid at these places IS due to the person buried there
So yes, according to this if you arguing against seeking of aid there, you have been touched by shaitan, and found comfort in his speech and religion, and are now deluding yourself in the warmth of the fire of Jahannum because you call a permissible aspect of Islam as Shirk - the worst sin
You have denied the Mercy [His servants] and the distinction Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala has made in His Oneness and shirk
So if you are understanding me and I have understood you correctly- I have said we have been commanded to go a Blessed Grave in the Quran - Obvious point of discussion where and how
Re: SHAITAN / SATAN - The Leader of EVIL
[QUOTE]
Thirdly, after carefully listening to the lectures, I completely believe that the customs, traditions & practices in sufi Islam which defy teachings of the quran & sunnah come from pagans / hinduism. And there are sufi muslim jinns, just like there are sufi muslim humans.... and those mazaars are populated by sufi muslim jinns... who help the humans visitors in their matters & difficulties...
[/QUOTE]
You have attributed going to Graves [You can actually argue against Mazaars as a building in Sunni Islam its only the opinion which prevailed which allows for Mazaars, SHRINES, on which basis we built them from the east to the west and from the north to the south], to jinns?] and the help given to jinns, so what about the cause of the need? I assume its jinns again
Can i ask: Where is your Allah?
Re: SHAITAN / SATAN - The Leader of EVIL
[QUOTE]
* Now I dont have a problem with that & believe it's all good as long as the sufi muslims are asking ALLAH for help & no element of SHIRK is involved. But if the humans visit mazars and seek help from the deceased's soul or anyone other than the creator.... that is where the problem begins... And offcourse people are deceived by the agents of the great deceiver into believing that the mazars are more sacred than ALLAH & his worship and reguler places of worship like mosques.*
[/QUOTE]
They are asking [if they went to ask, there is other reasons for visiting] through the Blessings on the place [site] and through the soul of the person, and often talking to the person
Taking Mazaars as more sacred then Mosques and praying to Allah [Salah] is prohibited in Islam [my assumption, I have daleel]
Re: SHAITAN / SATAN - The Leader of EVIL
Im sorry your posts lack clarity and do not have any reference from the quran/hadees. After reading all your posts & if I understand them correctly, I have the following questions:
Are you saying that you believe that the quran & sunnah tells us that the prophet Mohammad PBUH) is still alive? And you think that those muslims who believe he is not alive are committing 'kufr'?
If (as per you), wahabism is not SUNNI Islam then why is the scholar in the videos (self proclaimed salafi/wahabi) is explaining every small issue with the reference from sunnah?
You said SUNNI Islam does not allow sectors. Are you aware of 100s of sectors under SUNNI Islam? Like, deaobandi, brelvi and the list goes on. How do the sunnis justify so much segregation of sectors in sunni Islam?
Referring to your, "So if you are understanding me and I have understood you correctly- I have said we have been commanded to go a Blessed Grave in the Quran - Obvious point of discussion where and how." Yes please. Provide reference from the Quran where muslims are commanded to go to a "blessed grave". Who's grave are muslims commanded to go to by the quran and where is that grave?
Can you explain post number 13? It's very unclear what you're trying to say / ask?
In your last post, you have claimed that visitors of the shrines make "soul of the deceased" a medium through which they talk to Allah or pray to Allah or even talk to the soul of the deceased. That is exactly the mentality I was referring to which sufi muslims have inherited from pagan religions like hinduism. Even I, belonging to not a very enlightened muslim family, know that Islam tells us there is NO MEDIUM between the creator and the creatures. Any human from any part of the world can call out for Allah's help at any time WITHOUT having the need of ANY medium & HE will answer the prayers. Whereas in hinduism, they also say the IDOLS they worship are their MEDIUMS to reach out to SHIV. Tell me how that belief of yours is any different from hindus? So, I am right that these acts of worship / prayers / talking to the deceased's soul is HINDUISM in MUSLIM mask.
Furthermore, when a human dies, he/she dies. The belief that his/her soul remains on earth is NOT ISLAMIC. The souls go to live in another dimension. It is the QAAREENS of every human which remain on earth. If you dont know what a QAAREEN is then google it. I can even find you a reference from the quran which clearly says that souls of the dead do not remain on earth after they die. The QAAREENS of the dead, however, do and show up at places and sometimes to the relatives after taking form of the dead. Meaning the QAAREENS (The jinns) do not appear in their own form and shape but take up human form and the face & shape of the human whose QAAREEN they were... That is also explain by the scholar in the above lectures. I think you missed to see it so watch again.
Below are the references which were given to me some months ago and I found them today. If you really believe in SUNNI Islam then the below references should be enough for you to help find "a ground". Read them very carefully before responding or this thread will lead to too much confusion for the readers:
The Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) repeatedly condemned grave-worshipping in the authentic Hadith:
“Beware of those who preceded you and used to take the graves of their prophets and righteous men as places of worship, but you must not take graves as mosques; I forbid you to do that.” (Sahih Muslim)
“May Allah’s curse be on the Jews for they built the places of worship at the graves of their Prophets.” (Sahih Bukhari)
“May Allah curse the Jews and Christians for they built the places of worship at the graves of their Prophets.” (Sahih Bukhari)
“If any religious man dies amongst those people they would build a place of worship at his grave and make these pictures in it. They will be the worst creature in the sight of Allah on the Day of Resurrection.” (Sahih Bukhari)
“Do not sit on the graves and do not pray facing towards them.” (Sahih Bukhari)
Read the following carefully to know WHY the prayers/worships on shrines are FORBIDDEN by SUNNI Islam (Please note I said SUNNI Islam and not SUFI Islam. I think Sufi muslims are much connected with hinduism rather than ISLAM.
The first time in human history that people commited the sin of idol-worship was around the time of Prophet Nuh (عليه السلام). A very pious man passed away. Shaytan whispered in the ears of the tonwnspeople: he urged them never to forget this pious man lest the townspeople abandon his example and be lost to sin. Once Shaytan had convinced them of the necessity to revere the memory of this pious dead man, he then then convinced them to erect a shrine over the grave of this man. Eventually, the people started praying in the shrine, and soon thereafter Shaytan convinced them to pray to the deceased man.
It was in this step by step fashion that Shaytan was able to misguide people into Shirk. He convinced them that they were doing a good thing by respecting a pious man, and he allowed them to add one Bidah (evil innovation) after another, infusing polythiestic practise in their belief. Likewise do the Shia believe that they are being pious by visiting shrines but in reality they have been fooled by Shaytan.
Re: SHAITAN / SATAN - The Leader of EVIL
Im sorry your posts lack clarity and do not have any reference from the quran/hadees. After reading all your posts & if I understand them correctly, I have the following questions:
I dont think its clarity, that is lacking. I think it could be new to you because no body else, or not many people, from the general public bothers taking on the najdiyyah, or tries to understand traditional Islam. Many are happy with going thing or just focus on Ibadah. My posts should also read as accurate representatives of Quran and Hadees. You can actually hold me to the words, they are meant to be accurate representation of my religion, against what you have in terms of daleel.
[QUOTE]
- Are you saying that you believe that the quran & sunnah tells us that the prophet Mohammad PBUH) is still alive? And you think that those muslims who believe he is not alive are committing 'kufr'?
[/QUOTE]
Yes in a very comprehensive form as well including Jismi and the presentation of our Amal to Him SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam ,
and I do not apply takfir to its deniers (note to self: hmmm interesting)
We believe The Prophet SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam did taste death, if your trying to get at that
[QUOTE]
- If (as per you), wahabism is not SUNNI Islam then why is the scholar in the videos (self proclaimed salafi/wahabi) is explaining every small issue with the reference from sunnah?
[/QUOTE]
Wahabis are very religious. Their recitation, and salah is something that is outwardly admirable. Their detail and following of text has also been noted by others. My personal addition to this last point is that I can often see things they miss out
The sentiments they come out with after reading the same texts are also different, This is the aspect that i think ''does not go below their throats'' because having a hard nose alone is not Islam, in Islam we have a soft side too.
[QUOTE]
- You said SUNNI Islam does not allow sectors. Are you aware of 100s of sectors under SUNNI Islam? Like, deaobandi, brelvi and the list goes on. How do the sunnis justify so much segregation of sectors in sunni Islam?
[/QUOTE]
I said Sunni Islam, as representative of Islam, meaning Islam does not allow for sects. Its Kufr to make sects, usually the differences in beliefs is what is concentrated on with regards to Fatwa. Sometimes the names are different but the religion is the same
It can not be justified, its explained with notes on Deviation with or without Takfir
[QUOTE]
- Referring to your, "So if you are understanding me and I have understood you correctly- I have said we have been commanded to go a Blessed Grave in the Quran - Obvious point of discussion where and how." Yes please. Provide reference from the Quran where muslims are commanded to go to a "blessed grave". Who's grave are muslims commanded to go to by the quran and where is that grave? [/QUOTE]
I'll post the reference in my next post In Sha Allah
The commandment is to go The Prophet SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam, and its not abrogated, acted upon
I'd prefer to have discussed this alone without any other subjects involved at the same time
[QUOTE]
5. Can you explain post number 13? It's very unclear what you're trying to say / ask?
[/QUOTE]
I have written post 13, with clarity. If its unclear to you read it a few times, hold it with you, as you live life and see what you can understand of it
[QUOTE]
- In your last post, you have claimed that visitors of the shrines make "soul of the deceased" a medium through which they talk to Allah or pray to Allah or even talk to the soul of the deceased. That is exactly the mentality I was referring to which sufi muslims have inherited from pagan religions like hinduism. Even I, belonging to not a very enlightened muslim family, know that Islam tells us there is NO MEDIUM between the creator and the creatures. Any human from any part of the world can call out for Allah's help at any time WITHOUT having the need of ANY medium & HE will answer the prayers. Whereas in hinduism, they also say the IDOLS they worship are their MEDIUMS to reach out to SHIV. Tell me how that belief of yours is any different from hindus? So, I am right that these acts of worship / prayers / talking to the deceased's soul is HINDUISM in MUSLIM mask. [/QUOTE]
I am usually accurate and precise in what I say, what i said is still there. I said:They are asking [if they went to ask, there is other reasons for visiting] through the Blessings on the place [site] and through the soul of the person, and often talking to the person
*
*The attitude/culture towards Graves in Sunni Islam, regular traditional Islam of all 4 schools, comes from Islam, the companions, the fuqaha [jurists], and the Muhaddiths (compilers of Hadiths).
There is aspects of it which is a resemblance of the mushrikeen, but its not prohibited as source of Mercy and Aid
The similarities between Islam and Mushrikeen such as Hindus is another subject which deserves its own time, I will however mention a few things that will In Sha Allah refute you in the short form here
Islam has some similarities with Mushrikeen. The Hindu prays to stone...and so do...,it can be said, so do we. In the apparent form we pray towards a city, a sacred city, a Mosque, a sacred Mosque, towards multiple pieces of Stone (some Stone pieces laid by Prophets to be the direction of worship later), a footprint, a special stone, a curtain, a room, an empty space ?]
Do you know the Hindus pray towards stone too?...like you
Resemblance, interesting word
Also the impression you gave earlier was that you were likening us to hindus in some aspects that are not as serious as what you are claiming now. It should be Known that The Prophet OF Allah [Nabi], The Kind [Rauf], The Merciful [Raheem] SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam left for us Mercy in His Shariah in our customs as well.
[QUOTE]
Furthermore, when a human dies, he/she dies. The belief that his/her soul remains on earth is NOT ISLAMIC. The souls go to live in another dimension. It is the QAAREENS of every human which remain on earth. If you dont know what a QAAREEN is then google it. I can even find you a reference from the quran which clearly says that souls of the dead do not remain on earth after they die. The QAAREENS of the dead, however, do and show up at places and sometimes to the relatives after taking form of the dead. Meaning the QAAREENS (The jinns) do not appear in their own form and shape but take up human form and the face & shape of the human whose QAAREEN they were... That is also explain by the scholar in the above lectures. I think you missed to see it so watch again.
[/QUOTE]
The Islamic view, as explained by my Imams *, is that the Momin has the Kingdom of Allah at His Pleasure. This is His reward. The Ruh keeps a relationship with The Body
Those that appear in our dreams can be our relatives, or the shaitan [the accursed], except for The Prophet SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam can not be imitated by shaitan the accursed. He sallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam does visit and The Kingdom of Allah is at His pleasure, because He SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam is a mercy to All of it.
I have a problem with the lecture now, after listening to it for a while the guy started seriously boring me due to change of subject. I do not take from him, I can see the falsehood even in good he says, so listening and keeping ears alert is difficult. Bring your argument here, however even if there is nothing there in the ground it wont prove your allegation of Shirk [which is what those you obey [shirk to do so] have told you go out to prove.
[QUOTE]
Below are the references which were given to me some months ago and I found them today. If you really believe in SUNNI Islam then the below references should be enough for you to help find "a ground". Read them very carefully before responding or this thread will lead to too much confusion for the readers:
[/QUOTE]
With regards to sunni Islam, you do know that the man you are following claimed nobody before him understood tawheed, dont you? He said if others claimed they understood tawheed then they are liars. So dont talk like you are representing Sunni Islam. You are representing the wahabi movement in a way which is not even camouflaged. and whilst you are claiming Sunni Islam has been upon Shirk!......can i? please...can i? .....what a heretic
On many Issues I may not have answers to what you put forward in terms of evidences supporting your stance, at all times I have daleel for my stance. So that means even if you present something I am unable to answer or answer sufficiently, it does not mean you have refuted my initial stance because that still remains as an evidence to be taken into consideration. and vice versa
[QUOTE]
The Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) repeatedly condemned grave-worshipping in the authentic Hadith:
[/QUOTE]
Let me stop you here, to help you. Worshiping anything other then Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala is Shirk
so when you say Grave worshiping - it is shirk
This means that if you prove the actions which are approved by Ahlus Sunnatti wal Jamaah to be shirk, you have proved your point
Some help for you
[QUOTE]
“Beware of those who preceded you and used to take the graves of their prophets and righteous men as places of worship, but you must not take graves as mosques; I forbid you to do that.” (Sahih Muslim)
“May Allah’s curse be on the Jews for they built the places of worship at the graves of their Prophets.” (Sahih Bukhari)
“May Allah curse the Jews and Christians for they built the places of worship at the graves of their Prophets.” (Sahih Bukhari)
“If any religious man dies amongst those people they would build a place of worship at his grave and make these pictures in it. They will be the worst creature in the sight of Allah on the Day of Resurrection.” (Sahih Bukhari)
[/QUOTE]
The people used body/body parts of saints, and statues of Prophets to establish places of worship!
The above explanation is not mine, it has been acquired from a fellow. I say: And then they prayed to or towards them
Quiet Simple really
Christians do not have a church without a statue, not that i know of
[QUOTE]
“Do not sit on the graves and do not pray facing towards them.” (Sahih Bukhari)
[/QUOTE]
All surviving schools of Islamic Fiqh (4 madhabs) permit making dua in the direction of the Grave, if that is what you are referring to.
Even the saudi king, who funds the wahabi project as part of his kingship deal [meaning he might not be a wahabi himself, comment: what a hypocrite!], is seen making dua towards Al Rawdah Al Shareefa. video available on youtube. he is allowed, but we are Mushriks, ok.
Acts of worship such as Salah are prohibited towards Graves in Sunni Islam
But Dua is also a worship, that is true, but its not prohibited *
Salam is a dua, its to be done in the direction and to the Person whether on Ground or in the grave.
Dua has no qibla btw, can be done in any direction
[QUOTE]
Read the following carefully to know WHY the prayers/worships on shrines are FORBIDDEN by SUNNI Islam (Please note I said SUNNI Islam and not SUFI Islam. I think Sufi muslims are much connected with hinduism rather than ISLAM.
[/QUOTE]
I have told you, above, what you call Sufi Islam is Islam. The fiqh of it is from Ahlus Sunnah schools of fiqh, and our aqeedah is the aqeedah of Muslims.
its actually true that prayers if you mean salah, and worships ON shrines are forbidden by Ahlus Sunnah
Your comment on similarity with hinduism needs discussion. I am confident that on the subject of Shirk, our tawheed can not be trampled upon without consequences. The consequence of having a hugely different outlook on tawheed to Muslims [traditional Ahlus Sunnah] is shirk
[quote]
The first time in human history that people commited the sin of idol-worship was around the time of Prophet Nuh (عليه السلام). A very pious man passed away. Shaytan whispered in the ears of the tonwnspeople: he urged them never to forget this pious man lest the townspeople abandon his example and be lost to sin. Once Shaytan had convinced them of the necessity to revere the memory of this pious dead man, he then then convinced them to erect a shrine over the grave of this man. Eventually, the people started praying in the shrine, and soon thereafter Shaytan convinced them to pray to the deceased man.
[/quote]
You have failed to summarize this daleel correctly, or have intentionally accused Islam of Shirk [again] in your zest to prove us as mushriks.
you said:" ...Shaytan whispered in the ears of the tonwnspeople: he urged them never to forget this pious man lest the townspeople abandon his example and be lost to sin.."
This commandment came from Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala also in the perfected religion
The incident you are referring to was the first incident of Shirk. If memory serves me well what happened was that the people revered a pious man. >This was all good and well<. You had no right to put influence of shaitan on this. Then time passed by. Generations changed. Knowledge was forgotten and then the shaitan the accursed whispered to them to worship the person. and there it was - the start of Shirk
The incident represents a valid concern that we may fall into. But we wont fall into it as long as we bring Iman on the Kalima [we do not forget it], and if we forget it or fail to bring iman to it, then Shirk will be imminent
Btw The Kalima
Calling another Name besides Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala - yup
One Name - KAFFIR
Two names - Muslim
Rabb Allah
Love Rasool
Tazeem Saliheen
Walis Many
Islam is risky, i suppose, looking at it from your prospective
[quote]
It was in this step by step fashion that Shaytan was able to misguide people into Shirk. He convinced them that they were doing a good thing by respecting a pious man, and he allowed them to add one Bidah (evil innovation) after another, infusing polythiestic practise in their belief. Likewise do the Shia believe that they are being pious by visiting shrines but in reality they have been fooled by Shaytan.
[/quote]
The shaitan the rejected does misguide, but the things you are arguing about are from Islam, and can not be denied without consequence [deviation or kufr].
the shia just follow Sunnis, and add a bit
The shrines of the AhulBayt were popularized by Sunnis. The shia were very small in number till a few hundred years ago when they took a Sunni [sufi] country and forced conversions, and what have you
You mentioned Bidah, if again memory serves me correctly, the tabieen ?] were telling each other their practices except for the azaan would not be recognizable. The ahlus Sunnah have a different view on Bidah then wahabis, the wahabis have in the past needed to tell us that we were wrong to grow their own movement, so they devised a set of rules which helped them do that. Among them was their definition of Bidah, well refute Imam Shafi if you can**
Re: SHAITAN / SATAN - The Leader of EVIL
It's amazing how you have resorted to personal attacks all of a sudden?? We both had agreed to discuss the lectures which I had posted and I was trying to keep as as direct, to the point, precise & simple for everyone to understand including me. Whereas so far all of your very long and too many posts are not only devoid of clarity but all of those your statements are shots in the dark & too many stories from east west south north the ground and the sky flying in the air and all without even a single reference from the Quran or hadees despite claiming that you belong to SUNNI islam. So it takes you one whole week to provide one single reference to prove a single assertion you have made? I was very straight forward and simple in explaining myself and requested the same. But your words are full of emotions, taunts and most recently personal attacks which I dont even understand WHY as I assumed that your offer to discuss the lectures were serious.
Since your last post contains more & more mumble jumble instead of clear writings without a single quranic / hadees reference to support your statements, Im going to copy paste your post and write my comments in a different color to make it easier for mine, yours and all the readers understanding.
See my comments in blue and reply with quran/hadees references if you're serious.
I dont think its clarity, that is lacking. I think it could be new to you because no body else, or not many people, from the general public bothers taking on the najdiyyah (What is that word? Meaning please?), or tries to understand traditional Islam. Many are happy with going thing or just focus on Ibadah. (What's that english?) My posts should also read as accurate representatives of Quran and Hadees. (Ironically, without a single quran/hadees reference, huh? You really want to be taken seriously? Is this even a discussion?) You can actually hold me to the words, they are meant to be accurate representation of my religion, against what you have in terms of daleel. (Again... accurate representation of your religion without being able to provide a single reference to what you're claiming to be "true representation????)
Yes in a very comprehensive form as well including Jismi and the presentation of our Amal to Him SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam ,
and I do not apply takfir (What's that word??? Meaning please) to its deniers (note to self: hmmm interesting) (I have been trying to keep this discussion very precise, specific, to the point without hmmmms ooooohs, aaaaahhss, siiiiigghhs and all those sounds you make while reading my posts... So can you do the same? Because your posts full of tones of grammatical errors are already read as if you're writing in sleep & additional exclamatory words making them alot more confusing unnecessarily. So put your thoughts very clearly or reply only when you're fully awake. If you're purposely doing this so that I lose interest and eventually stop responding then there was no need to even come forward with an offer to discuss the above lectures. Nobody put a gun on your head.
We believe The Prophet SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam did taste death, if your trying to get at that.*** (Get at what? I asked a very simple question and expected a very simple answer. And this is the first time any muslim making such a huge claim that the last messenger of Allah, MOHAMMED (PBUH) is still ALIVE & that too WITHOUT providing ANY quran/hadees reference to the claim.)***
Wahabis are very religious. Their recitation, and salah is something that is outwardly admirable. Their detail and following of text has also been noted by others. My personal addition to this last point is that I can often see things they miss out
The sentiments they come out with after reading the same texts are also different, This is the aspect that i think ''does not go below their throats'' because having a hard nose alone is not Islam, in Islam we have a soft side too. (I asked you a very simple question. Incase you did not understand, here, let me repeat with a different set of words, "If, as per you, wahabism has nothing to do with sunnah then WHY is the wahabi scholar in the videos strictly advocates adhering to the sunnah (AFTER TAWHEED OFFCOURSE) in all our actions???? That was my question but you just went on beating around the bush there too.)
I said Sunni Islam, as representative of Islam, meaning Islam does not allow for sects. Its Kufr to make sects, usually the differences in beliefs is what is concentrated on with regards to Fatwa. Sometimes the names are different but the religion is the same
It can not be justified, its explained with notes on Deviation with or without Takfir ***(Incase you didnt know, the deobandis, brelvis, wahabis or whatever more sectors are there the names of which I cant recall, they all call the other sector not following the CORRECT islam because of having differences in so many practices in the religion. It is not just about the different names. I was surprised to see the stupid issues they fight over)
I'll post the reference in my next post In Sha Allah ***(Kindly post quran or hadees reference for every claim that you have made including the 'fiqhs' agreeing on this and that claim. Unless you do, your posts are just flying stories.)
The commandment is to go The Prophet SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam, and its not abrogated, acted upon
I'd prefer to have discussed this alone without any other subjects involved at the same time (Since it is a very huge claim, just like most of your other claims, I need a reference from the quran or sunnah or I cannot take none of your claims seriously. Because you're not saying these are your own views but claiming you get that from quran/sunnah so kindly prove it with references.)
I have written post 13, with clarity. If its unclear to you read it a few times, hold it with you, as you live life and see what you can understand of it, (No it is not clear or I would have replied to it. All I notice is some sarcasm with "Where is your Allah". And some stories about, "...the east to the west and from the north to the south...". But I do not understand why that sarcasm was put there. For what? In response to what and why???)
I am usually accurate and precise in what I say, what i said is still there. I said:They are asking [if they went to ask, there is other reasons for visiting] through the Blessings on the place [site] and through the soul of the person, and often talking to the person
*
*The attitude/culture towards Graves in Sunni Islam, regular traditional Islam of all 4 schools, comes from Islam, the companions, the fuqaha [jurists], and the Muhaddiths (compilers of Hadiths).
There is aspects of it which is a resemblance of the mushrikeen, but its not prohibited as source of Mercy and Aid
The similarities between Islam and Mushrikeen such as Hindus is another subject which deserves its own time, I will however mention a few things that will In Sha Allah refute you in the short form here
Islam has some similarities with Mushrikeen. The Hindu prays to stone...and so do...,it can be said, so do we. In the apparent form we pray towards a city, a sacred city, a Mosque, a sacred Mosque, towards multiple pieces of Stone (some Stone pieces laid by Prophets to be the direction of worship later), a footprint, a special stone, a curtain, a room, an empty space ?]
Do you know the Hindus pray towards stone too?...like you (hindus pray to monkeys, cows, human genitals, 100s of devis and devaas, amongst many other things. The stones / idols could be anything... along with singing, dancing, music... They do not pray towards one single place of worship in a single direction no matter what part of the world they're in. And offcourse not to a single God and that is what the 1st piller of islam is TAWHEED which makes one a muslim. It's quite different, not similar. But yes, if you want to prove from a hindu's or an atheist's POV that islam is just another name of hinduism then you can twist, break, create as many silly similarities as you like. Atleast your intention will be clear.)
Resemblance, interesting word
Also the impression you gave earlier was that you were likening (Did you really mean to say 'likening'???) us (US??? Who is US??? I was referring to the followers of SUFI islam. Are you???) to hindus in some aspects that are not as serious as what you are claiming now. It should be Known that The Prophet OF Allah [Nabi], The Kind [Rauf], The Merciful [Raheem] SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam left for us Mercy in His Shariah in our customs as well. (So what's the point of the last part of your post? I know there is mercy in Allah's and the last messenger's commends & I am looking forward to post those commands as reference to support your 100s of claims)
The Islamic view, as explained by my Imams , is that the Momin has the Kingdom of Allah at His Pleasure. This is His reward. The Ruh keeps a relationship with The Body *([FONT=Helvetica, Arial, lucida grande, tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif]Any reference from the quran or hadees to suport this another huge claim of yours? I will provide you a reference from the quran stating completely the opposite once I know you're really serious in discussing the lectures)**
Those that appear in our dreams can be our relatives, or the shaitan [the accursed], except for The Prophet SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam can not be imitated by shaitan the accursed. He sallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam does visit and The Kingdom of Allah is at His pleasure, because He SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam is a mercy to All of it.
I have a problem with the lecture now, after listening to it for a while the guy started seriously boring me due to change of subject. (When you came up with your offer to discuss the lectures, I understood that you had watched and understood the videos already & found yourself in a position to talk about it. Now you're telling me that you watched it "for a while" & find it boring. Im sorry if you do not even find his lectures worthy of your interest then what... I mean WHAT on earth made you come forward to discuss them???) the videos now I do not take from him, I can see the falsehood even in good he says (You can see the falsehood in the good things he says?? How that? Can you mention the minute of that part of the video? I would like to know about the 'falsehood in his good words'), so listening and keeping ears alert is difficult. Bring your argument here, however even if there is nothing there in the ground it wont prove your allegation of Shirk [which is what those you obey [shirk to do so] have told you go out to prove.*** (The sole mention from you that SUFI muslims visit shrines to pray to and seek help from the "soul" of the deceased is itself is SHIRK. Quran and sunnah tell us to only pray to and seek help from Allah and NO ONE ELSE. Not even the prophet.... Why so hard to see the shirk in that belief of asking the "soul" of the deceased (Which is not even there at the shrine but only the QAAREEN of the dead which is a JINN) to aid with your problems??????? In other words and as per my understanding, you're asking a JINN to help you which in turn is a DIRECT SHIRK. That is how the great deceiver has been deceiving the masses and they still ignorant.)***
With regards to sunni Islam, you do know that the man you are following claimed nobody before him understood tawheed, dont you? He said if others claimed they understood tawheed then they are liars. So dont talk like you are representing Sunni Islam. You are representing the wahabi movement in a way which is not even camouflaged. and whilst you are claiming Sunni Islam has been upon Shirk!......can i? please...can i? .....what a heretic*** (This is more mumble jumble from you... He claimed what? Can you provide the minutes of the video so that I watch it to understand what you're saying that he claimed??? I am not 'representing' anything. I found those lectures full of wisdom & valuable knowledge & information & shared them without any bias against any person or sector. Because I believe every one must have that knowledge. But as I said in my initial post that it is upto the people how much they are open to receive the knowledge. If the lectures are not making sense to you, I have no clue what you wanted to discuss about them. You need to understand them first. Y***ou can lead a horse to water but cant make them drink. *I did my part by sharing. You need to do your part to fully understand.)*
On many Issues I may not have answers to what you put forward in terms of evidences supporting your stance, at all times I have daleel for my stance. So that means even if you present something I am unable to answer or answer sufficiently, it does not mean you have refuted my initial stance because that still remains as an evidence to be taken into consideration. and vice versa
Let me stop you here, to help you. Worshiping anything other then Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala is Shirk
so when you say Grave worshiping - it is shirk
This means that if you prove the actions which are approved by Ahlus Sunnatti wal Jamaah to be shirk, you have proved your point. (Yes and when you say that visitors of the shrines go there to seek help by talking to the soul of the dead, that is SHIRK. Why is that so hard to understand??? Seeking help from anyone, soul of the dead, alive, human, animal, jinns or any other creatures of the creatir IS SHIRK. Why is that a rocket science to understand??? And as I said above, in this case of asking/talking to the soul of the dead is also ignorance of the ummah because no souls are allowed to remain in the world but only the QAREENs of the dead which are none other than the JINNS of that dead person. So in other words, you;re talking to/asking the QAREEN/jinn of the dead person to help you. And who do these qareens who want you to pray to them instead of Allah do you think work for, huh??? Any clues???? No, I think you;re too sleepy to guess.... It is the GREAT DECEIVER..... SATAN!!! He loves deceiving people. He is doing a good job in deceiving the people of the subcontinent.)
Some help for you
The people used body/body parts of saints, and statues of Prophets to establish places of worship!
The above explanation is not mine, it has been acquired from a fellow. I say: And then they prayed to or towards them
Quiet Simple really
Christians do not have a church without a statue, not that i know of*** (So how long until they put up pictures and statues in the shrines of their favourite religious figures? If satan has deceived them this much, it will be easier job ahead. Just a mater of time.)***
All surviving schools of Islamic Fiqh (4 madhabs) permit making dua in the direction of the Grave, if that is what you are referring to.
Even the saudi king, who funds the wahabi project as part of his kingship deal [meaning he might not be a wahabi himself, comment: what a hypocrite!], is seen making dua towards Al Rawdah Al Shareefa. video available on youtube. he is allowed, but we are Mushriks, ok.
Acts of worship such as Salah are prohibited towards Graves in Sunni Islam
But Dua is also a worship, that is true, but its not prohibited *
Salam is a dua, its to be done in the direction and to the Person whether on Ground or in the grave.
Dua has no qibla btw, can be done in any direction*** (This is the only part of your post which explains well.)***
I have told you, above, what you call Sufi Islam is Islam. The fiqh of it is from Ahlus Sunnah schools of fiqh, and our aqeedah is the aqeedah of Muslims.
its actually true that prayers if you mean salah, and worships ON shrines are forbidden by Ahlus Sunnah
Your comment on similarity with hinduism needs discussion. I am confident that on the subject of Shirk, our tawheed can not be trampled upon without consequences. The consequence of having a hugely different outlook on tawheed to Muslims [traditional Ahlus Sunnah] is shirk ***(The point is that it LEADS to further ignorance. If salahs are not being read in the direction of the graves, ignorant people will soon start that. Infact, there have been such cases in the past, if Im not wrong. So if that has happened before, why will the great deceiver not deceive the people again??? So why not be at the safe side and avoid things which may lead to shirk??)
You have failed to summarize this daleel correctly, or have intentionally accused Islam of Shirk [again] in your zest to prove us as mushriks. (If you read carefully, there was no 'accusation'... Where did you see it??? Considering how praying on mazaars may lead to shirk I just gave an example from the past. It was just an example to explain why visiting shrines exposes one to the attacks of the shayateens... Because then they incite the visitors further to give God-like status to a dead person. That was the point of narrating the story. But you failed to understand.)
you said:" ...Shaytan whispered in the ears of the tonwnspeople: he urged them never to forget this pious man lest the townspeople abandon his example and be lost to sin.."
This commandment came from Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala also in the perfected religion
The incident you are referring to was the first incident of Shirk. If memory serves me well what happened was that the people revered a pious man. >This was all good and well<. You had no right to put influence of shaitan on this. Then time passed by. Generations changed. Knowledge was forgotten and then the shaitan the accursed whispered to them to worship the person. and there it was - the start of Shirk
The incident represents a valid concern that we may fall into. But we wont fall into it as long as we bring Iman on the Kalima [we do not forget it], and if we forget it or fail to bring iman to it, then Shirk will be imminent (You're speaking for yourself. You cannot speak on behalf of the thousands of ignorant muslims who dont know the basic of islam but visit these mazaars to ask help instead of praying, reading and asking Allah for help. You;re speaking from the POV of those who have knowledge of the religion and know their limits. Our maid cannot even say 'Bismillah' in full. You cant read or write, cannot read namaz or quran. We had a hard time learn by heart the basic lines from the quran but still she cannot recite properly.... But she and all her family regularly visit various shrines and local baba jis to seek help in every small issue they have. What about such people? Who knows many of such people even prostrate to the graves in the shrines.... Who will go to watch and stop them? Will you??? There is not a single such mazar in Pakistan. There are 1000s that most people dont even know of. So many dead people and their graves are preserved because the people of that specific area believe the dead to be pious.)
Btw The Kalima
Calling another Name besides Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala - yup
One Name - KAFFIR
Two names - Muslim
Rabb Allah
Love Rasool
Tazeem Saliheen
Walis Many
(Kindly mention what you're trying to explain from the above. Is the above answer to any of my questions???)
Islam is risky, i suppose, looking at it from your prospective
The shaitan the rejected does misguide, but the things you are arguing about are from Islam, and can not be denied without consequence [deviation or kufr]. (So, my above explanation in blue mounts to deviation / kufr???? LOL, just WOW!)
the shia just follow Sunnis, and add a bit
The shrines of the AhulBayt were popularized by Sunnis. The shia were very small in number till a few hundred years ago when they took a Sunni [sufi] country and forced conversions, and what have you
You mentioned Bidah (Where did I mention bidah? What does the word mean??? I told you that the explanation was sent to me by someone few months ago. And while I understand the context and the story, I do not understand some of the terms used), if again memory serves me correctly, the tabieen (And the word means???) ?] were telling each other their practices except for the azaan would not be recognizable. The ahlus Sunnah have a different view on Bidah then wahabis, the wahabis have in the past needed to tell us that we were wrong to grow their own movement, so they devised a set of rules which helped them do that. Among them was their definition of Bidah, well refute Imam Shafi if you can (Did not make any sense)**
Re: SHAITAN / SATAN - The Leader of EVIL
**[Nisa 4:64] And We did not send any Noble Messenger except that he be obeyed by Allah’s command; and if they, when they have wronged their own souls, come humbly to you (O dear Prophet Mohammed - peace and blessings be upon him) and seek forgiveness from Allah, and the Noble Messenger intercedes for them, they will certainly find Allah as the Most Acceptor Of Repentance, the Most Merciful.
**Commandment
Not Abrogated
Acted Upon
a correction from earlier i said "..*and through the soul of the person.." *This whether correct or not is not what i meant [not correct in some possible interpretations i think]. The words came out wrong, on this occasion. I should have said asking the person to do something, ie Movement of the ruh, since all action is including in the creation of Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala. So Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala helps you through His Servants
Re: SHAITAN / SATAN - The Leader of EVIL
Mr./Ms. vroom, wait till I edit my post with my comments to your entire post as the 'Post Reply" was hit by mistake.
Re: SHAITAN / SATAN - The Leader of EVIL
Look this is obviously a potentially very long debate that will take time, and both of us will learn somethings
I have not tried to be rude or resort to personal attacks. You have said certain things first, like remark on shirk, meaning YOU MUSHRIKS, and the like. these are all worse then personal attacks in the religion. This builds an atmosphere of telling truth, so for example when you step into kufr with a view that you put forward i am entitled to point this out. I am also entitled to say the truth about the najdiyyah movement at all times, especially when they are saying we are hindus, and you are repeating this. The ahlus Sunnah are not here to be your punchbag, I too pack a punch or two.
If you want things explained very very nicely then you will have to ask in a very very simple manner yourself. Ask and telling are different for example. If it helps YOU ARE MY SISTER.
As for not understanding me, then I am sorry about that. I can not help you unless you quote me a little at a time. For example to say explain post x to me. It could possibly take me my whole life to explain so many different points. Its also possible [very possible] that i do not know in the detail that might your appetite for knowledge might demand
The initial suggested subject [whom the sufi gets knowledge from] is no as longer relevant, since you touched upon shirk. See before that you had not mentioned this and other things and after you did i was not willing to let you have these free pops at Ahlus Sunnah or Islam. So the subject changes but I am still here
Mr./Ms. vroom, wait till I edit my post with my comments to your entire post as the 'Post Reply" was hit by mistake.
Take your time sister, no rush. Days/weeks/months no problem. Even if i do not reply no problem, just think about the correct position to have. its a step in the right direction for all of us
You are welcome to respond how you like, but some ways are better at concentrating on a particular aspect, some ways are better for conversation, bouncing ideas
btw to do Takfir is to call them Kaffir [disbeliever]