Shais, sunnis?

Society Religion & Philosophy
1

Sunnis Blast Shias wherever they go but these are a few points I would like to tell you do you have enough knowledge about us?

*I have read bukari, muslim but have you(sunnis) read nahjul balagha, works of Salman Farsi and other sahabas we belive in?

*Do you guys go to Majlis for 2 whole months and learn Islam from the ullamahs?(I mean do you go each and every night and learn about Islam)

*Do you ever try to read about shiaisim like we do sunnisim?

*Are we arrogant, do we say no to everything we hear wrong about our faith and don’t even reaserch what has been said against us?

These are a few things I wonder and still
sunnis Blast what ever we say? Can we discuss peacfully these things(points)?

Before you write make sure you Quote the Quran and not the Hadith!!

Do you have enough knowledge about us like we have you?

2

hey Desert fox. I have 3 shia friends and they dont go to majlis for 2 months. Im Sunni and my shia friends and I go to Muslim lectures and other such events. We never differentiate each other as shia or Sunni.
Your arguments are valid but please realize that you do not represent ALL the Shia population out there.

3

To Desert Fox and Hk,
Majlis itself is an Islamic lecture thing to communicate the message of Imam Hussein (a.s) that emphasizes on Soul searching, character building, and creating love and harmony among humans. That was the biggest message of karbala. Offcourse one goes to majlis to remeber Imam Hussein and his sacrifice but one should also come out with the message out of it.

It is for this reason that every Majlis in Muharram has two parts:

'Fazail'- The praise of Allah and Mohammed o aale Mohammed (s.a.w)and the "message we get from their behaviors"

'Masaib'- Analyzing the tradegy of Karbala and again building our characters based on Imam Hussein and companion's sacrifices.

This is the true format of a Majlis that was initiated by Bibi Zainab (s.a). A majlis is a gathering where everyone is and should be welcome, irrespective of race, gender, sect.

Shair.

4

Desert Fox,

Please read posts in this section for the last 60 days and judge urself the difference between sunnis and shias here. I as a sunni was really disappointed the way as all shias except I think Lamba who had logic in his words, blasted Sahabas and accused sunnis of many things.
I real life how many sunnis u have found saying something bad about shias and how many shias have u found doing the same. I have beento many majlises but sorry to say have to come back really saddened. To me their ibadat was cursing sahabas and not praying for God but exceptions r always there. I have many friends as shias. Most of the sunnis including me dont even care what shias do. So why r u always trying to prove here that u r right in ur faith. If u go through posts here by some shia they even start by saying "your religion.." instead of ur faith.
All the posts here which show rancor here r started by shias including ones against Hazrat Ayesha. Show me posts which r started by sunnis of this type.

5

Desert fox, I myself am a Syed shea and all my snu friends don't care?1 and plus I don't know what you are trying to say?

6

Majlis itself is an Islamic lecture thing to communicate the message of Imam Hussein (a.s) that emphasizes on Soul searching, character building, and creating love and harmony among humans. That was the biggest message of karbala. Offcourse one goes to majlis to remeber Imam Hussein and his sacrifice but one should also come out with the message out of it.
It is for this reason that every Majlis in Muharram has two parts:

'Fazail'- The praise of Allah and Mohammed o aale Mohammed (s.a.w)and the "message we get from their behaviors"

'Masaib'- Analyzing the tradegy of Karbala and again building our characters based on Imam Hussein and companion's sacrifices.

This is the true format of a Majlis that was initiated by Bibi Zainab (s.a). A majlis is a gathering where everyone is and should be welcome, irrespective of race, gender, sect.

Shair.

7

I am not shia but I have attended majlises on more than a few occassions. The only point that seems strange to me is when people start hitting their heads and chests and crying..

its a moving narration of the horrors faced at Karbala and to get teary eyed is only natural but I could never understand the point of..or significance of hitting oneself. Could someone please educate me on that?

As far as the initial question goes, I have read a few shia books, and a few sunni books.

Unfortunately I am among those who value esence more than rituals, right or wrong..but this way I have inner peace and know that intentions matter.

8

[quote]
Originally posted by Fraudz:
**I am not shia but I have attended majlises on more than a few occassions. The only point that seems strange to me is when people start hitting their heads and chests and crying..

its a moving narration of the horrors faced at Karbala and to get teary eyed is only natural but I could never understand the point of..or significance of hitting oneself. Could someone please educate me on that?

As far as the initial question goes, I have read a few shia books, and a few sunni books.

Unfortunately I am among those who value esence more than rituals, right or wrong..but this way I have inner peace and know that intentions matter.**
[/quote]

First of all I like your last comments. It is not "unfortunately", you are fortunate to value essence more than rituals.

As regards your other question, there are certain ways to express sorrow and pain brother. Imagine the mothers of mujahids killed in the battle of palestine. Dont you see those mothers and relatives beating their heads and chest? You do, right. It is just the intensity of pain one gets that initiates a reaction. And again, there are different ways to express pain.

If a person dies his very close relatives feel the pain more than other far friends. Isnt it or not? His far friend might come there to attend his funeral only and then go back home. His closer family members will not forget him so soon, they will still cry for him, his kids might get more emotional and beat their chest. It is something natural brother. We cannot tell anybody to stop crying, because crying is a natural phenomenon and human nature. Some cry more, some cry less.
**
The same goes for Imam Hussein (a.s). We feel the pain that Prophet (s.a.w.w)'s grandson was brutally martyred three days thirsty and the cruel armymen of Yazid even killed his 6 month old son. The more the person feels this pain in his heart, the more emotional the reaction becomes.
**
Hope I have answered your question, but feel free to ask anything more. I also like the way you use the word "educate me", instead of "tell me", that talks about your urge to learn about the facts and seek the truth.

Also check the other thread "Khutab-e-Zainab (s.a) in Darbar-e-yazid", you will get a better picture of events and cause of Karbala.

Regards,
Shair.

[This message has been edited by shair30 (edited October 10, 2000).]

9

I was trying hard to stay away from ‘Religion’ forum, but I guess, its just my luck to come across a thread like this!

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

No, no, no… Sunnis don’t hate shias. Why do you say so in the first place?

Good for you, that you have read ahadith collected in Bukhari and Muslim. And it is good for any muslim to read the works of Salman Farsi and the sayings of Hazrat Ali (RA).

Re: Majalis - Shias attend these majalis to have a speaker tell them about ‘fazail’ and ‘masaib’. If a sunni wants to attend these, its fine. If not, no one can force it. So basically its a non-issue. The real thing is to gain knowledge. Whether you do it by reading book, listening to a speaker, through audio cassettes, through internet, all of them are fine.

Sunnis, don’t blast the shias, not at all. In my last post on ‘What is the Purpose of this forum’, I had thanked both you and shair30 for contributing your valued input and for the correctness of your aqeeda. In several occassions I had even posted material from shia website (al-islam.org) to reinforce points that both Sunni and Shia basically have the same aqeeda, so there shouldn’t be any fights.

Desert Fox, regardless of all these points, one thing about your post confused me. In the time of our Prophet (PBUH), there were no sects, certainly no shias and sunnis. So why would there be any mention of the sects in Quran? Quran is for all mankind, and a guidance for all muslims. Secretarianism has no place in Quran. We should all endeavour to be good muslims, and gain knowledge. We should not keep on harping on differences amongst the muslims.

Adios!

10

Shair

I understand the point about the great feeling of loss and sadness that one hits oneself. There are two items that concern me though.

1) I thought, maybe incorrectly, that hitting yourself as such is prohibited in islam as is loud mourning for the deceased (shaheed in this case)

2) If people who hit themselves because the pain is so much for them to bear of this tragic event its human, but there are others who just do it because it is the thing to do. So expecting someone to hit oneself just because its the norm is incorrect because its just for show?

I am very close to shia beliefs in some ways being a syed and since my family several generations back was all mixed, shias and sunnis both. I was born in a household that was considered sunni, but have never cared too much for either title.

as far as the word "unfortunately" goes, its because I get blasted for it as in taking the easy way out etc etc, whereas I feel that its the original purpose, and intent of the ritual as well as the niyyat of the person that matters most to Allah.

I appreciate your openness in answering the questions. growing up I heard obvious made up stories about what shias do, and found out that my shia friends heard similar stories about sunnis. Now that i look back at those stories..i am amused and distressed at the same time..amused because they were so baseless and unreal, distressed because they probably worked on others in sowing seeds of hatred and mistrust.

11

Shia have made picture of Imam Ali, is it possible that, I can post a picture of Imam Ali?

*V~V~V*He came, He saw, He conquered*V~V~V*

[This message has been edited by The Watcher (edited October 10, 2000).]

12

ditto

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/ok.gif

jazakallah. Though there are differences, but we need to discuss them instead of accusing and abusing. We all are different from one another,but we should not try to enforce or impose our ideas on others. To seek truth and gain knowledge about what happened is different than abusing each other. Even in that whole Islamic history and the incident of Karbala covered during Majlis, the whole purpose is to learn lesson out of it.

Ahsan.

your brother,
Shair.

13

I totally agree with your 2nd point about “not only doing it for the sake of doing it”, but believe me brother, there are people who feel the pain more than others and they do not do it because their parents do it. We have a mixed shia sunni family too and my great grandfather was a sunni but he used to be a regular participant of majlis. My grandfather became shia after studying and attending majlises. I even have sunni cousins but we are kool with each other. I never try to impose my ideas or faith on them. As pristine or degas once said, my faith is with me and their faith is with them. To seek the truth and try to “educate” ones self is very good, rather a significant part of Islam.

Again coming back to the original point, we are not talking about laws here, we are talking about natural human feelings and sentiments. khuda nakhuasta, if somebody’s father dies, am i gonna go and ask him? hey why are you crying? hey, stop crying its against Islamic law. Think about it. Its a totally human and natural feeling. I again totally endorse your point about people just doing it because others do it, its wrong, i agree. But everybody is not like that.

I like the last part of your post. It is really ridiculuous how people are given wrong info during childhood for whatever reason and then they find something different. I still remeber my sunni friends used to come to eat muharram halim and used to ask me" Hey where are the human bones?" Well they used to joke, because they all knew there was no human bone

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

Again I’d suggest that you please check the other thread “khutab-e-zainab (s.a) in darbar-e-yazid”.

Regards,
Shair.

[This message has been edited by shair30 (edited October 10, 2000).]

14

To all my Shia brothers,

One thing that is very much common between us is that we are Muslims, we believe in Allah, his messengers and in his Holy Book the Quran.

We understand that everything that happens in the world is perfectly in accordance with Allah's supreme plan. We also believe in tawheed, that there is No GOD but Allah, no other diety worthy of any explicit worship except Allah.

Allsh also says in the Quran, that Prophet Muhammed was an ideal for us, and we should live our life the way he did.

If you do not believe in the three sentences mentioned above, please inform me and I'll quote them from the Quran..in detail.

Also before I proceed, lets make two things clear:

1) I believe in Imam Hussien and Hazrat Ali, they never commanded us to the majlis.

2) I am a "sunni", but by no means do I intend to "Blast" shias, I am only trying to educate my fellow muslims.

Allah's Supreme Plan

The karbala incident, Imam Hussien's death, and most of the events that shias mourn for were in perfect accordance with Allah's supreme plan. Hazrat Imam was a martyr and InshaAllah God will reward him for all his doings in heaven.

There is no point in crying and mourning, ironically, in a way it displays one's sorrow or anger on Allah's doings.

Tawheed: Only Allah is Worthy of Worship

Attending the majlis, on a specific date and mourning for a person and hurting oneself for him is quiet similar to submitting one's self to him.

If it is not worship, it is amazingly similar to it and thus it is a form of shirk, as shia's in a way ASSOCIATE Imam Hussein with Allah. Never in history have we seen such worship for the Prophet even, and is strictly condemned in the Quran to associate anyone with Allah.

Only God is worthy of all worship and submission, Imam Hussien was one of his creations, the same way everything in the universe is.

Biddat: The Prophet was never involve in such an act.

Anything that is invented by humans and plugged into Islam is classified as biddat. We are not supposed to believe in amulets and all other ways of worship invented by later generations, which are not part of the Quran and were not done by the Prophet.

The prophet, hazrat Ali, Imam Hussien, and none of the sahabas, were involved in the majlis, it was later invention an dthus fits into biddat which is strongly prohibited.

Ofcourse, only Allah knows best and I may be wrong, if you can prove to me that I am wrong and shia-ism is right than I will be very happy to become a Shia.

May God lead us to the path that is right...in this and all other issues. (Aameen)

AOA,
Yahya

15

I have given my point of view on the subject, now I welcome your contradictions, so that we can further clarify the problem.

If I am wrong, please let me know.

I have never participated in a majlis, as I live in Saudi Arabia, and there are no shias here.

That is because the scholars here think that participating in a majlis and being part of the beating is shirk, which is the only Sin that God says he will not forgive. I can quote this from the Quran if you like.

I will repeat...If I am wrong please let me know...I tend to be very optimistic in terms of religion...it deepens your faith.

I need to understand your views too.

16

When ever I say I’m Shia I’ve been looked at in a strange way

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/frown.gif

and people try to avoid me just because of my sect!
But yes there are some sunnis who respect my faith but fail to listen what I have to say about religion!
my qustion is Why this unwillingness to listen about Islam agaist thier point of view?

17

Ditto

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/ok.gif

ahsan.

  1. I believe in Imam Hussien and Hazrat Ali, they never commanded us to the majlis.<<

I respect your opinion brother but I do not agree with above statement. Hazrat Ali and Imam Hussein were way less in status compared to Prophet (s.a.w.w). Prophet (s.a.w.w) told us to do majlis:

“zayyanu majlisokum be zikre ali ibne abi talibin, zikrahu zikri, zikri zikrullahey, wa zikrullahey ibada.”

“Enlighten your ‘majlises’ with zikre ali ibne abi talib (zikr=discussion), his zikr is my zikr, my zikr is zikr of Allah, and Allah’s zikr is Ibadat.”

This saying of Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) refers to the ‘fazail’ part of majlis where the zakir praises Allah, Rasool and masoomeens.

Regarding the ‘masaib’ part of majlis, Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) used to cry on the 10th day of Ashura and used to kiss Imam Hussein’s throat when told about the events of Karbala. Therefore, the masaib portion of majlis is following that sunnah of RasoolAllah.

Thanks for your comments on the issue. JazakAllah.

Wassalam,
Shair.

[This message has been edited by shair30 (edited October 12, 2000).]

18

[quote]

prince_x said:

Allah's Supreme Plan

The karbala incident, Imam Hussien's death, and most of the events that shias mourn for were in perfect accordance with Allah's supreme plan. Hazrat Imam was a martyr and InshaAllah God will reward him for all his doings in heaven.
There is no point in crying and mourning, ironically, in a way it displays one's sorrow or anger on Allah's doings.

[quote]

I again respect your opinion but disagree with it. Based on the reasoning you gave brother, everything we see around us or anything that happens is ordered and “wished” by Allah. No doubt Allah knows about everything and He has power to change things, but sometimes he gives us Humans option to choose between the right and wrong. Whats the point of life if everything He wants to do, he just do, and we are silent spectators. Its not the case brother. Life is a place of Imtihan (test). Allah also wants to show the ugly face of Shaytan’s followers (in karbala they were represented by Yazid’s armymen). Allah wants to show us the awesome behavior and peak of tolerance and love for him by showing us examples of pious people like Imam Hussein (a.s).
To remember that event and feel sorrow is NOT an anger against Allah’s doings, rather its raising voice against batil (wrongdoers and wrong ideas). Yazid used to womanize, gamble, drink, and kill innocent people. Imam Hussein took a stand against him; anybody who remembers that incident of karbala and criticize yazid, *does not only criticize, but also the character of yazid, therefore criticizing anybody whose character resembles yazid’s during any time period. *

If everything that happens here in this world is Allah’s wish, then let me ask you brother, Is Allah ordering Israeli troops to kill innocent Palestinians? Is Allah ordering Indian butchers in Kashmir to eliminate Muslim generations? Is this because Allah wishes that western powers are stronger than muslims on economic and political grounds? Allah has given us ** some decision making power to decide between right and wrong** Thata the whole point of creating us, if everything was already decided and wished by Allah, then whats the point of creating us here.

Same goes with the karbala incident. Yazid and his armymen were given choice to chose between right and wrong. They selected the wrong path and still getting cursed for that. When a muslim curse yazid, he/she not only curse his personality, it curses that character.

Hope I have cleared the sitution pretty much. I am not trying to abuse or accuse anybody, because I believe in having nice and educated discussion, just giving the clear picture that can prove the facts.

your brother,
Shair.

19

To the participants and readers of this thread. Thank you so much for keeping this discussion civilized and mature. This is how we will understand each other better and learn about one another and similarities as well as differences.

Too many threads in this section start of well and then plunge into rabid warefare. Lets keep this one the way it is.

Shaer thansk for the email, I was not aware of the points you told me about. I am learning already and will check the other thread as well.

20

I had one more question.
My shia friends pray using a small clay bar for sajda. the reasoning was that you have to do sajdah on the ground and the jai namaz and rugs etc we use are not ground.

Is this the correct reason, and is it the complete reason.

Someone also told me that the clay must come from the grounds at karbala. Others said that is not true otherwise there as so many shia brethren in the world that there would be a grand canyon at karbala if they dug out clay for everyone.

Additionally, the significance of "alamm" during moharram?

Correct me if I am wrong but that is not a part of shia belief but is just a way to show devotion right?

My family has not done much of the koonday and halwa at eid milad an nabi or shab e baraat, and was told that doing so is okay as long as its done with the intention of celebrating rather than considering it as a part of religion..