Re: Sex with slaves
*No, I'm not supporting that at all and I don't think it was right, however that was the norm of the time. We are talking centuries ago and history is not always picture perfect or the way we would like. I also believe that the reason it is easier to see women as property in this day and time because of thinking like this through the centuries. *
** As far as religion supporting it, it was legal at the time. All nations had slaves, everywhere, it was a fact. Religions dealt with this issue the best they could in the mindset of that day. Do you doubt that slaves were a part of everyday life? Then why wouldn't there be guidelines on owning, caring, and using slaves? As a civilization we evolved beyond the thinking that slaves were short of being human and realized that the institutuion of slavery is outdated and a violation of a person's basic rights. But if you read any historical account of those times right on up to early America, slaves were second class.**
I don't understand your viewpoint. History treated women as property...history also shows that baby girls were buried alive. Should Islam have made concessions for burying girls alive as well? Is there any point in history where burying alive ur child becomes morally acceptable and scriptorally approved? Slaves being viewed as less than human or as objects is a human construct; and God should not give into human illusions of their own grandeur. If slavery as an institution is objectively immoral; then God should have stated this in what is meant to be the final and last religion of mankind (or any previous religions as well..but especially the last). The Prophet was continously asked to make concessions with the faith by the pagans; like allowing a few 'side' Gods. Why would God want to appease to cultural demands that are inconsistent with the "truth"; when the Muslim faith was under attack from the same culture. Alcoholism was a cultural aspect of those people as well; this got slammed down in 3 or so steps. Slavery has no such equivalent. It has not been made "haraam". So if one is to believe in the Qu'ran; then you cannot believe in our current cultural mindset that "slavery is wrong; slaves should be treated as equals IF anyone kept slaves..which one shouldn't".
Religion does not support anything because the current people have a law that allows it......religion asserts whats legal and illegal over any of the original cultural practices because it is revealed to THOSE people for the specific reason that their practices and laws are skewed.
Alcohol isn't bad for you but good: it is bad in excess. It was forbidden because of its potential for damage in society, even though it had some benefits. Slavery also has great potential for damage in society (as has been shown continously in history), yet for some reason..alcohol is deemed more haraam than slavery!!
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I know everyone likes to think that their book is perfect, etc, but the men who wrote these books existed in another time. As holy as they were, they were also human and no human was perfect or God himself. The same for the Bible. They dealt with what they knew in the mindset of that day. Even the Christian Saints, as holy as they are to me, were imperfect human beings just closer to God's ideal than I am.**
Ok, but your position is not what I'm arguing. It is the orthodox interpetation that the book IS perfect and human culture has no influence on it that i am talking about.
Why is it that you should assume that it would be valid now simply because it was valid then? It is like saying that you should be without running water and electricity because the Qu'ran (insert your book here) doesn't mention them. Civilizations change and evolved beyond what man can concieve because man is limited.
My question about slavery being valid now because it was valid then is to those on this board who say that cultural interpetation is not acceptable. It is also a question as to whether it WAS valid 1400 years ago to keep slaves ...or were they wrong in allowing this..giving into their cultural norm. Now if we think about it: lawfully allowing slaves has a GREAT potential for misuse (social degredation). Women leading prayers has very SMALL potential for social degredation. Forbidden slavery would have caused people back 1400 years ago some minor incoveniences..and they could just as well just hire people as employees (the religion could have recommended this as an alternative to 'slavery'). So what is the reason that such a crucial issue was not made unlawful. And if we are to beleive the Qu'ran message is applicable to all times; then our position on slavery should not change. It shuold not be viewed as primitive; but a natural way of life.
I agree, but again, the reason slavery existed was that it wasn't considered immoral to own slaves, it was acceptable and gave status to a person who owned them. I agree with the statment that a slave 1400 years ago should be as human and worthy of a better life then a slave today, however do you really believe that was a fact? Remember that religion was a baby, if you will. It wasn't fully formed. I am sure there were a lot of moral people, but the cultural and societal norms were different. Again, you are making a mistake in assuming that respect was automatically given to slaves because they were human, it wasn't, they were property. Most were won in battle, some were bought at a price. In either of those situations, in the first there is a contempt for a people that would allow themselves to defeated (OR in later times God allowed it because they were destined to be that way) so they deserved the treatment they got or in the case of a bought slave contempt for a person who would allow that.
Religion was apparently not a baby 1400 years ago but in its final form. It could not be asserting the arabic cultural norm of slavery and female objectification to all of mankind for the future!! based on what? that the arabs back then thought it was good to have as many slaves and women as u could? religion does not cater to such ridiculous aspritations of greedy men! No matter how babyish a religion may be. There are some truths that you do not need to give concessions to from culture to culture. For example compare: institution of slavery and eating pigs. If humans are to reach a stage in evolution where they are too good to eat pigs; then they certainly should not be keeping slaves or thinking of them as property. I dont see any consistency! Why not, as the last religion, strike down on slavery as an example for the future! The reason why slavery flourished so much in America was because Islamic teachings did not prevent Arabs from selling off slaves to white colonialists. This LAWFUL attitude towards slavery BACKFIRED!
**828 - What are you going to do to change history? You can't, you accept that things happened - bad and good - and make a better world from that point on. You may see it as a cop-out but what kind of dealing with it do you mean considering how many centuries ago this happened?
I cannot comment on what the Qu'ran position is, my knowledge is limited to what my husband interprets for me. I am not saying don't talk about old history, what I am saying is to look into the reasons for it and move on. Some things will not be applicable today simply because civilization has moved to a point were it is a non-issue or because a moral shift in the people. Morally, we as a civilization do not condone slavery, it is not mainstream as it was centuries before.
Again, it is what God has dictated to man, an imperfect vessel. Some were closer to God than others, but no one can claim perfection. That alone is God. As much as people are going to hate this, man makes mistakes.
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But how are we supposed to evaluate our morality? If people here are asserting that we should only look to the Qu'ran for moral guidance...then we would never come to the conclusion that slavery should be abolished. We have used humanistic thinking to come to that conclusion..and when it is in conflict with Islamic teachings: we excuse ourselves by saying that the issue was "in the past" so its irrelevant.
WHAT THE HECK IS GOING ON!
brain explodes
