I feel really bad for people who are missing out on the pleasures of Alcohol. Over what? Blind senseless faith.
Peace Magic Stick
When alcohol was forbidden centuries ago, Muslims would be seen spilling the booze down the drains. If for those who have never tried alcohol you feel sorry for them, what do you feel for those who have tasted and consciously chosen not to drink?
Re: serving alcohol
I'm new here but I've already noticed in the 3-4 posts from you that you do that PEACE thing. Usually it is followed by indirect taunts or insults or other condescending language. Try not doing that with me, it might get annoying.
I feel bad for anyone who misses out on it, regardless of whether they have tried it or not. I also feel bad for people who miss out on pork and beef. I also feel bad for people who miss out on a lot of sex because they won't do it till get married which is usually 7-8 years after legal sex age. Everything that you probably deem evil/haraam.
Peace Magic Stick
When alcohol was forbidden centuries ago, Muslims would be seen spilling the booze down the drains. If for those who have never tried alcohol you feel sorry for them, what do you feel for those who have tasted and consciously chosen not to drink?
Peace psyah
We would definitely feel sorry for anybody spilling booze down the drains.
We really feel for those who have tasted and consciously chosen not to drink...
I'm new here but I've already noticed in the 3-4 posts from you that you do that PEACE thing. Usually it is followed by indirect taunts or insults or other condescending language. Try not doing that with me, it might get annoying.
I feel bad for anyone who misses out on it, regardless of whether they have tried it or not. I also feel bad for people who miss out on pork and beef. I also feel bad for people who miss out on a lot of sex because they won't do it till get married which is usually 7-8 years after legal sex age. Everything that you probably deem evil/haraam.
I think I'm gonna like talking with you Magic Stick!
Peace psyah
We would definitely feel sorry for anybody spilling booze down the drains.
We really feel for those who have tasted and consciously chosen not to drink...
On behalf of all those who you feel sorry for ... thanks
Re: serving alcohol
I feel sorry for people who dont understand hadiths, and think Quran is understandable on its own. You must have some twisted logic to support that claim.
I always found haidth rejectors to be the narrowminded ones, with lack of knowledge. They always start to contradict themselves when you ask them to give you verdicts from Quran, or to elaborate a point from Quran. They go speechless.
Regardless, Serving, trading, manufacturing, and drinking, wine (which btw has alcohol in it, 
) is HARAAM. And should be avoided.
I feel sorry for those who think that Quran needs crutches to understand , Quran itself says we have made it is easy for you to read and comprehend.
If some verdict is not in Quran you can try to find it in hadees but if a hadees contradicts , Quran , itself and common logic that is a made up hadees. As Quran has no doubt in it hadees has to be free of all doubts to be accepted an inspiration from Allah.
I have already given many examples where many hadess from authentic books of hadees can be easily declared made up by a common man.
Now you go and show me a verse of Quran which categorically declare alcohol as a haram substance. If something is declared haram in Quran it is declared haram without leaving any ambiguity in that declaration.
There are many examples of those declarations and you know them. But there is no such declaration for alcohol.
Not that I will go out and start drinking it , Allah has told us in Quran that Alcohol and Dice throwing have more harm then benefits therefore I take the words of Allah and will avoid them as much as humanly possible for me.
I feel sorry for those who think that Quran needs crutches to understand , Quran itself says we have made it is easy for you to read and comprehend. If some verdict is not in Quran you can try to find it in hadees but if a hadees contradicts , Quran , itself and common logic that is a made up hadees. As Quran has no doubt in it hadees has to be free of all doubts to be accepted an inspiration from Allah. I have already given many examples where many hadess from authentic books of hadees can be easily declared made up by a common man. Now you go and show me a verse of Quran which categorically declare alcohol as a haram substance. *If something is declared haram in Quran it is declared haram without leaving any ambiguity in that declaration. * There are many examples of those declarations and you know them. But there is no such declaration for alcohol. Not that I will go out and start drinking it , Allah has told us in Quran that Alcohol and Dice throwing have more harm then benefits therefore I take the words of Allah and will avoid them as much as humanly possible for me.
Peace Mirch
It is straightforward. The Qur'an is made easy for us to recite and recall. But no where does it say that it is made easy for us to understand. And even if it was made easier for us to understand, it does not mean that it is understandable, nor does it mean you or I are those people who are in a position for understanding it. The crutches the hadith provide are not on the Qur'an they are on our minds to guide our conclusions. The Qur'an is sheer knowledge decanted and condensed to the heart of Muhammad (SAW) who uttered the words for all humanity to hear. There are many hadith which relate Muhammad (SAW) himself asked his companions "Do you know the meaning of such and such" and they would reply "Allah (SWT) and His messenger know best". This is the sunnah that we should adopt.
The people who are in positions to deem a hadith in conflict with the Qur'an and whether that conflict is relevant or not are the scholars. You have been showing many seeming contradictions with the Qur'an and Sunnah and I believe ALL of them have been given explanation to date. It is just that you choose not to adopt those explanations because they go against your stance.
You have made a statement above about ambiguity and that if the Qur'an makes something haraam, and so on. If you are true to your methods then show from the Qur'an where you are told that Qur'an is the only place where haraam or halaal issues are determined and can only be done so on the premise that they are not ambiguous. If you cannot show this then you are making up criteria which is outside the Qur'an.
I believe you can take this stonger stance from me, but I apologise in advance if you feel I am being insulting.
Re: serving alcohol
A scholar told me that there is a hadith which specifically addresses the people who only try to rely on Quran without consultation of Hadiths. For such people he said the Prophet (saw) told the believers to ask those people, " Is donkey halal or Haraam ?" (Prove it from the Quran)
Besides that, minor details of namaz, wudhu....etc. are not mentioned in the Quran, hence should be understood from the hadiths.
And Allah (s.w.t) knows BEST!
A scholar told me that there is a hadith which specifically addresses the people who only try to rely on Quran without consultation of Hadiths. For such people he said the Prophet (saw) told the believers to ask those people, "** Is donkey halal or Haraam ?" (Prove it from the Quran)**
Besides that, minor details of namaz, wudhu....etc. are not mentioned in the Quran, hence should be understood from the hadiths.
And Allah (s.w.t) knows BEST!
If it tastes good, i'll make it easy upon myself and eat it.
Re: serving alcohol
Soniye, ni dil sada lutiya gaya
I feel really bad for people who are missing out on the pleasures of Alcohol. Over what? Blind senseless faith.
I feel sorry for people who think they need stimulants to get enjoyment out of life...oh what a shallow life it must be...even more sorry for those who lust after alcohol to such an extent that it's a part of their daily existence. That's actually quite sad...
The fact is, it's cultural...not physical. Very few people admit to me they drink alcohol for the taste...it's the culture of drinking, and the temporary effects...which they even admit is not so pleasent when over done.
When asked why, they have no real response...they just do...it's a part of their culture...you tell me what is blind and senseless..
I am sorry to say that your understanding that Quran is difficult to understand is baseless based on this verse:
Allah has promised that Quran has been made easy to understand. The following verse is repeated 4 times in Surah Qamar (55:17, 55:22, 55:32, 55:40)
My dear friend if you cannot understand Quran then it does not mean nobody can. You will understand it if you pay more attention and use your own brain instead of just being
a lamb and follow blindly what has been fed to you for centuries . The truth and beauty of Quran has been hidden by mullah for centuries from masses saying the same thing you are saying that it is not easy to understand and it is a professional job to understand it.
The difference between you and me is that I try to understand using my own brain and with a critical eye on the older interpretation but you take all that as is what others have been saying for ages.
As for sahaba saying to prophet , Allah and his Rasool know better , as per my studies and research it was their style , they knew that if Rasool( SAW) is asking a question it is to teach them something , not to test their knowledge or memory. So for example if Rasool asked them which city it is , Rasool(saw) knew which city it was and so the will reply Allah and His Rasool know the best. Moulana Moudoodi has discussed this style at length in Tafheem ul Quran . I guess you did not read it , looks like your knowledge and understanding of Quran is limited to one book or some lectures.
Now I come to questioning ahadees contradiction and answers given to them previously by scholars not all contradictions have been answered because there were very few people who would object to what was in the book of ahadees , again they would blindly accept like you what mullah told them they will not critically evaluate what he said..
To understand ahadees you do not have to be go to a madarsa , you have to study , study and study, which I do and try to spread the truth. Also whatever answers have been given in the past for the contradiction of ahadees , they are not satisfactory for me and for others like me.
Now to the subject of only Allah’s Authority for declaring haram there are many many verses of Quran which categorically state that only Allah can declare haram , no human has the right to do so.
Consider the following verses:-
"And say not of what your own tongues pronounce, the lie: ‘This is haram, and this is haram’, inventing against Allah a lie; verily, those who invent against Allah a lie shall not prosper. " 16:116
“O ye who believe! Don’t make haram which Allah has made lawful for you, nor transgress (or commit excess); verily, Allah loves not the transgressors.” 5:87
““Say: Bring forward your witnesses to prove that Allah has made haram these!” But if they do bring such witnesses, bear thou not witness with them; nor follow the vain desires of those who say Our Signs (revelations) are lies, and those who believe not in the Hereafter, or those who for their Lord make equals.” 6:151
“Say: My Lord has only made haram abominable (shameful) deeds, the apparent and the concealed, and sin (errors), and greed for that which is not right (trespasses against truth and reason), and associating with Allah that for (or to) which He has given no authority (or power), and saying about Allah that of which ye have no knowledge.” 7:33
“He has only made haram for you carrion, and blood, and the flesh of swine, and that which is devoted to other than Allah; but he who is driven thereto (forced by necessity), neither craving nor transgressing due limits, then verily, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.” 16:115
And last but not the least this verse is a proof that even the prophet cannot make anything
Haram for himself let alone for others:
يَاأَيُّهَاالنَّبِيُّلِمَتُحَرِّمُمَاأَحَلَّاللَّهُلَكَتَبْتَغِيمَرْضَاةَأَزْوَاجِكَوَاللَّهُغَفُورٌرَحِيمٌ
**“O Prophet! Why holdest thou to be forbidden that which Allah has made lawful to thee? Thou seekest to please thy consorts” **
(66.1 Surah Tahreem verse 1, Yusuf Ali’s translation).
Peace Mirch
4 simple points:
That verse does not mention the word ‘to understand’ it mentions the word ‘to recall’. I do try to expand my knowledge and I can state that your stance does help. If you want to know what I do regarding my understanding is not simply to accept, but if I do not understand something I try my hardest to find out why before I begin to create my own reasonings or dismiss certain things because I cannot be asked to accept a given reason. I place the authority of hadith and ijma of scholars above my intellect but I do not switch off my intellect. Had that been the case then you would have defeated me long ago.
You have failed to show in your references that ambiguous statements in the Qur’an are not to be considered halaal or haraam or only explicit haraam or halaal statements in the Qur’an can be considered as so
Not in any of the verses have you shown this. Instead you have consistently shown that we are not to make halaal or haraam what Allah (SWT) has not made halaal or haraam. But you have failed to show how you have arrived at your conclusion about ‘ambiguous’ statements. Remember I am not arguing over what can be made haram or halal. I am arguing over why you cannot accept the hadith as definitive of Allah (SWT) telling us through Muhammad (SAW) that such and such is halal or haram based on the given hadith as specifics for a given statement that is not contradicted in the Qur’an. Why do you demand it to be non-ambiguous? Where are you getting this demand from?
The reply you gave for ‘Allah (SWT) and RasoolAllah (SAW) know best’ is not sufficient, the clear reason why they said this is because though they had an idea of what certain things meant they were humble enough to listen to the superior explanation.
The last reference you give is out of context on the following levels:
Re: serving alcohol
Bro Mirch, is a Donkey halal or haram to consume?
Re: serving alcohol
^ seriously yar.. if the halal food situation is that bad, just move to another country.
I feel sorry for people who think they need stimulants to get enjoyment out of life...oh what a shallow life it must be...even more sorry for those who lust after alcohol to such an extent that it's a part of their daily existence. That's actually quite sad...
The fact is, it's cultural...not physical. Very few people admit to me they drink alcohol for the taste...it's the culture of drinking, and the temporary effects...which they even admit is not so pleasent when over done.
When asked why, they have no real response...they just do...it's a part of their culture...you tell me what is blind and senseless..
Interesting post that.
Anyone that drinks becaiuse he HAS to is sad indeed. Just like anyone who HAS to do anything else including shaving in a particular way, because he HAS to, not wants to. Including shaving, praying dressing.......
Drinking can be cultural and cultured. Or it can become physical and excessive. Just like everyother opiate that addicts people - including religious customs, superstitions......
Are you a psycologist or running AA? Why else would you wonder that people don't come and volunteer to you abt why they drink?
The way I see it is this - people who enjoy a drink do so out of happiness. But people who drink to drown their sorrows get addicted, stop enjoying and the alcohol takes over......just like religious jihad becoming terrorist jihad.
Keep the drink and religion under your control - don't let them control you
Interesting post that.
Anyone that drinks becaiuse he HAS to is sad indeed. Just like anyone who HAS to do anything else including shaving in a particular way, because he HAS to, not wants to. Including shaving, praying dressing.......
Drinking can be cultural and cultured. Or it can become physical and excessive. Just like everyother opiate that addicts people - including religious customs, superstitions......
Are you a psycologist or running AA? Why else would you wonder that people don't come and volunteer to you abt why they drink?
The way I see it is this - people who enjoy a drink do so out of happiness. But people who drink to drown their sorrows get addicted, stop enjoying and the alcohol takes over......just like religious jihad becoming terrorist jihad.
Keep the drink and religion under your control - don't let them control you
Peace Tariq Akhtar
Even addicts choose to continue taking alcohol, even those who choose not to drink for religious reasons choose not to do so. Those who choose to drink in moderation perhaps like yourself are not aware of the higher level of choosing not to do something luring rather than choosing to indulge in it or becoming addicted to it. The fact is we willingly choose to obey our religion we are not forced into it, I can drink tomorrow and no one will know about it, except God of course, yes I can choose to be a hypocrite and drink privately and get the best of both worlds, or I can be willing to submit truly with body and mind of my own accord enslaving myself to the Law of God.
You mention Jihad ... good job it is not that much out of context ... for surety the alcoholic who abstains from alcohol is engaged in a jihad.
Re: serving alcohol
Comeon psyah - the very definition of an addict is that they no longer 'choose' the opiate. It becomes a compulsion, many times with chemical dependency and physical manifestation (shiver, headache, nausea, or worse).
I've seen similar though not identical symptoms in those addicted to religious ritual and superstitions - you may have heard of the guys who start sweating and go incoheerent for short durations if late for prayer etc.
I don't drink except when I come across an exceptional vintage or a really smooth scotch. Colege, used to guzzle beer and thought of it more as yet another beverage than a alcoholic drink. Twice in my life I got drunk on purpose to see what it is like - actually took a hotel room, stayed in for 3 days just to make sure I limit any potential disaster. After the 2nd drink, lost all interest in going through wit it because it was simply boring. The second time, had friends come over (in case the first experience was due to lack of company). Guess what? Again our gang including me were more enthralled in chatting around and doing stuff than drinking!)
My point is, drinking is not at all terribly exciting and as someone earlier pointed out, it is indeed sad if that is what represents excitement in ones life. BUT
And I'd say the same of religion. Don't let drink or religion rule you. God is not = Religion. Just like excitement is not = drinking.
Comeon psyah - the very definition of an addict is that they no longer 'choose' the opiate. It becomes a compulsion, many times with chemical dependency and physical manifestation (shiver, headache, nausea, or worse).
I've seen similar though not identical symptoms in those addicted to religious ritual and superstitions - you may have heard of the guys who start sweating and go incoheerent for short durations if late for prayer etc.
I don't drink except when I come across an exceptional vintage or a really smooth scotch. Colege, used to guzzle beer and thought of it more as yet another beverage than a alcoholic drink. Twice in my life I got drunk on purpose to see what it is like - actually took a hotel room, stayed in for 3 days just to make sure I limit any potential disaster. After the 2nd drink, lost all interest in going through wit it because it was simply boring. The second time, had friends come over (in case the first experience was due to lack of company). Guess what? Again our gang including me were more enthralled in chatting around and doing stuff than drinking!)
My point is, drinking is not at all terribly exciting and as someone earlier pointed out, it is indeed sad if that is what represents excitement in ones life. BUT
And I'd say the same of religion. Don't let drink or religion rule you. God is not = Religion. Just like excitement is not = drinking.
Peace Tariq Akhtar
I hear what you are saying but your parallels are all over the place. I was simply showing that if we utilise the word 'choice' you need to understand what level of 'choice' people actually have.
When an alcoholic drinks alcohol he in the strictest sense does CHOOSE to do so, it just becomes so hard for him to choose against it. In a very different sense the one who choose to do Jihad is that person who surpasses physical dependencies and makes his mind control the desire against it. The person who chooses to be moderate is not struggling but swaying this way and that. Puts a little alcohol in himself and stops. The problem is that alcohol itself reduces will power and by taking a little could easily cause a person to go just that more until they are merry and loud, but not quite seeing double.
God rules us, that is our belief, we follow Islam ... when we let it rule us, we do so not because we are tricked into it like alcohol tricks people. We do so purely out of a higher sense of will power even higher than those moderate drinkers who choose to have a merry once in a while. Which person will willingly enslave himself ... not the biggest alcoholic will want himself to be ruled by alcohol, but you see that is where Muslims are different we want to be slaves of God.
Re: serving alcohol
It's so disturbing that people are okay with this Submission, with this Slavery to a fiction and all its fictitious characters.