Serious Question for Muslims

[Slickstar]

Re: Serious Question for Muslims

@ravage

Different places have different laws. However there is precedents even in more libertarian western countries that disallow conduct deemed immoral/unseemly/lewd by some standard in atleast a portion of the public sphere.

I support this theory only on the basis that if it interferes the public sphere. ie drunk at night, causing social cohesion problems etc etc

@ravage

Given that there is room for laws regulating public behaviour based on social values in libertarian thought the society can choose to restrict things such as mingling of the sexes (publicly) and say barrs on the distribution of alcohol or drunked behaviour (publicly)

yes.

@ravage

Theres a number of reasons why the consent often isnt really informed consent. And one can make the same argument for polygamy. That porn is allowed and polygamy isnt has little to do with exploitation and womens lib.

What type of consent are you looking for?

anyways, i support the idea of polygamy because Marriage is just a contract between people specifying their hold on assets and having particular social requirements.

Therefore there is no reason not to allow multiple individuals to enter into a similar contract with each individual in a group.

if my neighbor wants to have sex with 3 males or 2 females, she/he should be at the liberty to do so within their home/privacy. I do not understand how its anyone else s problem.

@ravage

they shouldnt have to in a libertarian society. however they shouldnt try to use the government to change social values. instead the appropriate method is preaching.

The government job is not to enforce morals codes when morality is defined based on each individual prospective not on a collective society. due to this nature where society thrives to be "freeist" the lobbying should continue.

[kakaballi]

Re: Serious Question for Muslims

That's why you're an idiot.

thanks for playing. Try harder next time.

kthanksbye.

What logic!

On a serious note, by your logic, buying sex services should also not be a government's job. A lot of countries ban it too. Isn't it against freedom of expression and enterprise?

[Slickstar]

Re: Serious Question for Muslims

What logic!

On a serious note, by your logic, buying sex services should also not be a government's job. A lot of countries ban it too. Isn't it against freedom of expression and enterprise?

are you asking why governments in some countries ban prostitution?

Of course prostitution should be legalized for 3 reasons:

1. there should be nothing illegal If a man wishes to pay a woman for sex. Both the male and female have stepped into a business partnership where BOTH are benifited from the mutual decision. The whole idea of prostitution should not be seen differently from any other services that are provided to the community.

I see where you are speaking from, however what you perceives as harmful, another may see as highly beneficial.

oh, even if governments banned prostitution, the community will decide the demand for sex in the market, not the govt.

1. illegalizing prostitution would simply increase the amount of problems with it, such as sexual abuse of prostitutes and etc. also as its much easier to regulate a legal industry which comes along with STDs etc.

IMO nothing much has the need to be illegal for an adult (pot, homosexuality etc etc).

1. There is sufficient evidence to suggest that the legalized prostitution reduces rape related crime.

kthanksbye

[H.Bogard]

Re: Serious Question for Muslims

1. There is sufficient evidence to suggest that the legalized prostitution reduces rape related crime.

kthanksbye

Mind pointing out this alleged 'sufficient' evidence? Far as I know, whilst being illegal... widespread prostitution in European and American cities has done little to reduce sexual assaults and rape.

[kakaballi]

Re: Serious Question for Muslims

@Slickstar

are you asking why governments in some countries ban prostitution?

Of course prostitution should be legalized for 3 reasons:

…

kthanksbye

I was just saying that what governments ‘should’ or ‘should not’ do is a normative question answered differently in different regimes and varies over time. BBC NEWS | Europe | New Norway law bans buying of sex

Having pre-marital or extra-marital sex was considered to be a grave sin in many cultures across Europe only a hundred years ago. The norms acceptable now are not necessarily ‘correct’ or ‘best’ since acceptability varies inter-temporally.

[Slickstar]

Re: Serious Question for Muslims

Mind pointing out this alleged 'sufficient' evidence? Far as I know, whilst being illegal... widespread prostitution in European and American cities has done little to reduce sexual assaults and rape.

R.N. Barber's. "Prostitution and Increasing Number of Convictions for Rape in Queensland". Australian and New Zealand Journal of Criminology. 1969 (vol. 2 issue 3) - "A study conducted in Queensland... show[ed] a 149% increase in the rate of rape when legal brothels were closed in 1959, while other offenses against the person by males increased only 49%."

[H.Bogard]

Re: Serious Question for Muslims

@Slickstar

R.N. Barber's. "Prostitution and Increasing Number of Convictions for Rape in Queensland". Australian and New Zealand Journal of Criminology. 1969 (vol. 2 issue 3) - "A study conducted in Queensland... show[ed] a 149% increase in the rate of rape when legal brothels were closed in 1959, while other offenses against the person by males increased only 49%."

So... your idea of sufficient evidence is a nearly half-century old study where the methods of conduction are unknown and you seriously think that the existence of brothels being there in the first place had nothing to do with turning people into sexual predators?

[Slickstar]

Re: Serious Question for Muslims

Im pretty sure there are modern studies to show the affirmative, but the first 2 points are good enough for it being legalized.

[AllahkaBanda]

Re: Serious Question for Muslims

^are you a Muslim or do you claim to be a Muslim?

[shoponline4kaprey]

Re: Serious Question for Muslims

@WiseGuy

Punishment is not disturbing, it is totally legal if a girl or a guy find guilty they can be punished. There are some rules to follow, not you and I can go and punish anyone there are authorities and courts to decide. Also a female can not be punished publicly.

Some really good points. I think IF the punishment fits the crime it is fine. But yes a woman cannot be punished publicly, she cannot be 'held down' by men etc. Also the punishment of flogging in Islam is NOT for being out in public with a man, its for fornication (that's sex) outside of marriage by a single person (i.e. not married). There are very strict rules including the same requirements of witnesses to the act.

I have no problem with Sharia law as long as it is put forth by scholars and codified in law books. What occurred was NOT Sharia. A punishment for a woman would never be public because it would interfere with Purdah which is for both her and the ones looking at her.

A recent BBC article details how sharia law is actually helping the farmers in the region whose lands were being taken by the Taleiban fighters by force or their good used without payment. There are lots of aspects to Islamic law including a system of financial law etc. I wish if there is going to be Sharia law that it is studied by scholars. Sadly Islamic law is not studied by the best and the brightest and those least familiar with it are left to apply it and we end up with things like this.

I see great hope in Islamic Law for the region IF it is coupled with true Islamic scholarship traditions.

[hareem01]

Re: Serious Question for Muslims

Shoponline4kapray
Aap yahan? Religion forum main? Zahe Naseeb Zahe Naseeb....:)

[psyah]

Re: Serious Question for Muslims

@krash

Most of us have seen the video of the Swati girl being lashed by the Taliban. There has been an outpouring of disgust and many have said that they find it 'disturbing' .

But, most criticism has been about proper rules of evidence and court procedures not being followed.

My question is that IF all the legal requirements of shariat were followed and the victim was declared guilty, would you still find the punishment 'disturbing'?

Peace krash

If we don't find punishment disturbing then there is something wrong with us.

It does not mean that we only allow those things we find comfortable because this is not Islam. Islam in the Shari'ah domain is about serving justice and that must be served even when it disturbs us. We should be moved by penalties that are motioned in an Islamic court if we are not moved by them then the whole idea of them being a deterant and prevention will not work.

We should remember we hate the crime not the criminals

[righteous]

Re: Serious Question for Muslims

I don't think anyone is against sharia based punishments. At least not by anyone claiming to be a Muslim.

The problem is that we need due process and punishment by competent authority. I don't think Taliban thugs care much about due process and they are hardly the competent authority. There is a government in place, if the people are on the side of the Taliban then let them win majority in the legislature and enact laws.

The restoration of Chief Justice was an example of a sufficient popular sentiment pushing forth its demands through democratic means.

Is democracy against Islam? If it is then the fundamental argument of Ahl-e-Sunnat for succession through Ijmah is questionable.

[AllahkaBanda]

Re: Serious Question for Muslims

^do you know the difference between ijmaa' and democracy? Let me jog your memory since you're always quick at attacking Ahlus Sunnah using your batil aqeedah and deficient intellect: democracy is ruling by other than the sharee'ah and ijmaa' in Ahlus Sunnah is consensus among people of knowledge on sharee' ahkam. This shows your deficient mind set and ideology. Next time before questioning us, clean your own home garbage and please let me not even get started.

[righteous]

Re: Serious Question for Muslims

@AllahkaBanda - The fact that you can only attack me shows the lack of your character and any valid argument.

As far as intellect is concerned, you have shown lack of it by missing the point completely. My point was that

a) sharia punishments are right but

i) need to be enforced by competent authority
ii) under sharia defined due process
Iii) while considering sharia defined mitigating circumstances.
and Taliban Thugs are in no way competent in doing the above

Now lets talk about ijma - who decides on these worthy individuals who get to change the face of the nation. Please show me the criteria for deciding/selecting/choosing these gentlemen (being a fundo, I am sure you will never let a woman be in position of power) and who will get to choose them? Please give me a list of people who you will appoint to decide the fate of the 170 million of this country.

If Ijma was a very valid way of selecting a ruler then why was Abu Bakr not chosen through Ijma or does Ijma mean beating to near death of those opposing you (please feel free to ask me and I will quote the Hadith from your Sahihs) at saqifah or where was ijma when Abu Bakr nominated Umar.

The Ijmah council chose Usman over Ali since Ali wanted to follow the Prophet's (PBUH) sunnah and Usman wanted to follow the shaikhan's sunnah.

Your 6th Imam/Caliph Yazid laeen was nominated by his corrupt father - was that Ijma and that of the heredity passing of the caliphate from Father to son started by Umaayads down to the last ottoman caliph/emperor.

I am so afraid of the garbage you will take out on me from your misquoting, misrepesenting hate mongering websites. You can go to ALIJAAN's level and start mindlessly copy pasting from all such websites.

If you want to have a meaningful discussion, lets start a thread on Fiqh issues, let post verdicts on every issue one by one and see where we all stand and who is more logical (oops logic is haraam in your sect, I totally forgot)

[Pagluu]

Re: Serious Question for Muslims

^you might be asking for too much from these people. According to them, using the aqal and intellecut is practice of the Ahlay Bidah.

[Meeru_A]

Re: Serious Question for Muslims

Dear Allah!pleaze dont let my hopes die for my country! ameen

[AllahkaBanda]

Re: Serious Question for Muslims

@righteous

@AllahkaBanda - The fact that you can only attack me shows the lack of your character and any valid argument.

blame yourself for acting like a jahil. When did I attack you instead of your argument? I attacked your ideology and your flawed argument that your brought forward: comparing democracy with ijmaa'.

@righteous

As far as intellect is concerned, you have shown lack of it by missing the point completely. My point was that

a) sharia punishments are right but

i) need to be enforced by competent authority ii) under sharia defined due process Iii) while considering sharia defined mitigating circumstances. and Taliban Thugs are in no way competent in doing the above

did I disagree to your these points? Please stop generalizing people based on their few mistakes.

@righteous

Now lets talk about ijma - who decides on these worthy individuals who get to change the face of the nation. Please show me the criteria for deciding/selecting/choosing these gentlemen (being a fundo, I am sure you will never let a woman be in position of power) and who will get to choose them? Please give me a list of people who you will appoint to decide the fate of the 170 million of this country.

If Ijma was a very valid way of selecting a ruler then why was Abu Bakr not chosen through Ijma or does Ijma mean beating to near death of those opposing you (please feel free to ask me and I will quote the Hadith from your Sahihs) at saqifah or where was ijma when Abu Bakr nominated Umar.

The Ijmah council chose Usman over Ali since Ali wanted to follow the Prophet's (PBUH) sunnah and Usman wanted to follow the shaikhan's sunnah.

Your 6th Imam/Caliph Yazid laeen was nominated by his corrupt father - was that Ijma and that of the heredity passing of the caliphate from Father to son started by Umaayads down to the last ottoman caliph/emperor.

I am so afraid of the garbage you will take out on me from your misquoting, misrepesenting hate mongering websites. You can go to ALIJAAN's level and start mindlessly copy pasting from all such websites.

If you want to have a meaningful discussion, lets start a thread on Fiqh issues, let post verdicts on every issue one by one and see where we all stand and who is more logical (oops logic is haraam in your sect, I totally forgot)

stop hijacking every other thread to promote your batil aqeedah. Let me remind you that the battle between people of haqq and people of bid'ah is on the issue of tawheed. And last time we had a discussion on that issue, all of you shias were enable to answer my quries. If you wanna talk about side issues then open a new topic.

@Pagluu

^you might be asking for too much from these people. According to them, using the aqal and intellecut is practice of the Ahlay Bidah.

stop shoving words down our throat. when did we say that using aql is bid'ah? The people of haqq have drawn a fine line on this issue.

@slickstar

I'm still waiting for an answer to my question: do you claim yourself to be a Muslim?

[righteous]

Re: Serious Question for Muslims

@AllahkaBanda

blame yourself for acting like a jahil. When did I attack you instead of your argument? I attacked your ideology and your flawed argument that your brought forward: comparing democracy with ijmaa'.

Then please define Ijma one more time as it has been consistently applied through time.

[quote]

did I disagree to your these points? Please stop generalizing people based on their few mistakes.

[/quote]
your mistakes or that of Taliban?

[quote]

stop hijacking every other thread to promote your batil aqeedah. Let me remind you that the battle between people of haqq and people of bid'ah is on the issue of tawheed.

[/quote]
and who made you God to decide that my aqeedah is Batil. Please quote the Ayat or Hadeeth to support your claim to such authority and I will show you Ahadeeth that even the Prophet (PBUH) refrained from such decisions.

[quote]

And last time we had a discussion on that issue, all of you shias were enable to answer my quries. If you wanna talk about side issues then open a new topic.

[/quote]
There were enough answers but you refused to listen to them.

When I open topics of Fiqh and its issues then no ones responds. See there is still a topic on Talaq and need of witness. Please come forward and participate.

[quote]

stop shoving words down our throat. when did we say that using aql is bid'ah? The people of haqq have drawn a fine line on this issue.

[/quote]

that is a salafi belief. Let me get done with reviewing a few documents and I will try to get you some quotes.

Cheers

[AllahkaBanda]

Re: Serious Question for Muslims

^as for your first point; I have already stated in my previous post:

[quote]
democracy is ruling by other than the sharee'ah and ijmaa' in Ahlus Sunnah is consensus among people of knowledge on sharee' ahkam.
[/quote]
as far your rest of points, open new topics. When did you reach the level of scholarship to discuss the issues of fiqh? If you want to discuss anything with me then discus tawheed and don't forget that you showed little knowledge in this topic. I'll also look forward to these "salafi quotes censoring using aql".