Most of us have seen the video of the Swati girl being lashed by the Taliban. There has been an outpouring of disgust and many have said that they find it ‘disturbing’ .
But, most criticism has been about proper rules of evidence and court procedures not being followed.
My question is that IF all the legal requirements of shariat were followed and the victim was declared guilty, would you still find the punishment ‘disturbing’?
Most of us have seen the video of the Swati girl being lashed by the Taliban. There has been an outpouring of disgust and many have said that they find it 'disturbing' .
But, most criticism has been about proper rules of evidence and court procedures not being followed.
My question is that IF all the legal requirements of shariat were followed and the victim was declared guilty, would you still find the punishment 'disturbing'?
So what is worse?..................being killed in your Mothers Womb by the rotating blades of a blender for crime you never committed..................
or lashed for a crime you did commit..............:(
Punishment is not disturbing, it is totally legal if a girl or a guy find guilty they can be punished. There are some rules to follow, not you and I can go and punish anyone there are authorities and courts to decide. Also a female can not be punished publicly.
Re: Serious Question for Muslims
krash: I'm glad you started this thread because all these threads contain video which tends to "taint" people's feelings and thought process. It is a good question in my opinion. People are objecting left and right. Some people have trouble with actual punishment regardless of whether proper judicial trial was carried out or not.
Some Muslims have expressed desire to change these punishments using "Ijtihad" as these punishments are not "applicable" for some weird reason in "today's world". I guess they are too mesmerized by man-made laws.
My own view is, if proper judicial process was carried out and then these two were found guilty then the punishment is okay (I'll have to double check if this is the prescribed punishment in Quran/Sunnah/Hadith).
Re: Serious Question for Muslims
The reason its disturbing for me is that they carry out these punishments without any logical sense of a judicial process. First of all, WHERE is the evidence? Secondly, who reported it and do they have a secondary intention? Some rumors say that a Taliban guy proposed to her, she rejected, and then in anger he accused her of messing around.
Even if she was guilty of something, its not Islamic, because the punishment is purely barbaric - she is being exhibited in front of a male crowd, being held down by a male. NOT PART OF ISLAM. It amazes me that a group of people will walk around talking of Islamic law, and they have zero understanding of Islam, and they ACTUALLY get away with it. Only in places like Pakistan.
Third, and this is most important, you cannot be levying these sorts of laws and punishments on people without balancing the equation with providing opportunity to people. These taliban chor ke aulad are not providing any economic boost, no jobs other than blowing yourself up in Kandahar, not providing for the basic rights of people, and they are denying education to girls. All purely ridiculous, and all being done in the name of Islam. I seethe over this.
Fourth point: These punishments of flogging, if anyone bothered to read the Quran, which seems to be such an out of fashion practice these days apparently, is for women who engaged in premarital sex. That requires 4 witnesses. Where is the evidence for this? If its sex during marriage (adultery), punishment is death. Which can be done behind closed doors - it doesn't need to be done publicly and not with human flesh hanging off a pole like you see in a butcher's shop (reference: khooni chowk of Swat). Anything outside of that gets no physical punishment, as there is none perscribed in the Quran. You talk to a boy, you do NOT get beaten in public for it. You even so much as bat your eyelashes at a boy, or smile at him and give him your "mobile number and style number", you do not get beaten in public. WHY cannot the muslim world come to terms with the Quran?
Re: Serious Question for Muslims
^ SubhanAllah sister PyariCgudia
I agree with you and ditto you on that ...
Re: Serious Question for Muslims
Thank you sister PyariCgudia. Agree with you on all the points.
But what IF all these conditions were met? Would you still be disturbed by lashing as a punishment?
Re: Serious Question for Muslims
@pyarigudi
Please learn how the Salaf carried the hadd punishment and please learn some sharee'ah before giving your fatawas with no ilm. Indeed, it is not permissible for regular people to carry hadd when there's no authority (ruler) or qadi. Indeed, it is not allowed to carry hadd when there's no evidence for it. Indeed, the practice of the Salaf and stance of the jamhour (majority) scholars is that a person shouldn't be made to lie down let alone holding his/her. However, there's no evidence from the practice of the Salaf which says that the hadd shouldn't be carried in public or can't be carried if there are not 4 witnesses.
Wallahu A'lam
Banda:
[quote]
there's no evidence from the practice of the Salaf
[/quote]
And I thought Muslims are supposed to follow Allah and Rasool?!
If looking for evidence, look into the life of the Prophet first.
Re: Serious Question for Muslims
I am sorry but not only do we not know whether this girl has been tried and convicted in the proper manner, but how is the fact that men are holding down a woman and other men watching her being beaten 'islamic'?
After all, there are men that actually enjoy that kind of thing....i dont like to bring this up but has this thought only occurred to me?
Re: Serious Question for Muslims
I would like to say a few things here. Everyone questioning the validity of the judicial process are on the spot. However those questioning the validity of the circumstances in which the punishment was carried out should think twice. If all judicial requirements were satisified according to Islam then on the question of how should the punishment should have been carried out is not crystal clear in our literatures though we might find a few guiding principals:
1 - Those who claim that such a punishment cannot be carried out in public. I think every single punishment mentioned in the ahadith provide enough context to support that they were carried out publically. There are only few ahadith concerning the punishment for zina and they clearly mention the case of where a man and woman were punished for adultery in which the man was covering the woman from the stones being tossed at them. Now it may be possible that only a few people were present but no where does it give the clue that it was done behind closed doors. Islamic punishments serve as deterrents to the public from engaging in unlawful acts, if done in private it looses its some of its purpose.
2 - About men holding the woman down, yes I think we can use some guiding principals here that na-mahram men should not be holding the woman but then who should be. I am pulling this from my memory for now but my opinion would be the same rules should be applicable as those for lowering the body of a woman into her grave where I believe na-mahram men are not allowed to do it though there are exceptions. Some can correc me here if I remember incorrectly. If you are going to flog someone don't say that no one needs to hold them down or tie them. There is no literature we have that describes in detail how people were flogged i.e. by lying them down, tying them up or what method was used. The intensity of lashing or the kind of whip used. I only know the incident of Umar RA where he lashed his son and he died as a result of it. Whether during the lashing or after is not clear. It is known that prior to lashing his son was sick so it is no conrete that the intensity of the lashing killed him either.
If you reply to my post please no bull crap replies. Speak with proper knowledge of the subject matter and feel free to correct me with proper references. I am here to learn as well not just correct others.
Re: Serious Question for Muslims
its a question i've been thinking about. No i dont think it would matter to me even if there were relatively small procedural issues. i would still condemn it.
Ravage, do you mean to state that yo would be against carrying out the Islamic punishment even if all conditions were satisfied to warrant it.
Re: Serious Question for Muslims
walekum assalam.
First off, whatever conditions you think warrant this are not shared by everyone, and never will be. So it is useless to talk about the 'right' conditions, because they will never exist. The best that can exist is the right according to the judgement of the executioner, which means that the Taleban version was also justified (before the cowards backtracked from it)
Furthermore I cannot reconcile this kind of punishment with my views on the dignity of human beings. I recognize that according to most interpretations of the religion, this is what is supposed to happen. So be it. I disagree with most interpretations, and what the salaaf apparently did. The standard apologetic for these punishments is that the witness requirements are so rigorous (4 eye witnesses seeing a sexual act) that they'd never be carried out unless they were basically having public relations. But more and more, I think thats an empty apologetic designed to appease western eyes, and the reality is that the 'salaaf' according to atleast one poster used to be much more liberal with the flogging of women.
Re: Serious Question for Muslims
I d say, If you describe only one occasion of Sunnat of Holy Prophet SAW where he ordered to punish a girl like that for the particular crime then I would say OK.....but credible source only.
I know there is not any.
These acts are just to defame Islam and Pakistan.
Re: Serious Question for Muslims
akhee, the practice of the Salaf and stance jamhur ulama is that a person cannot be made lying down when carrying hadd on him/her.
a hadd can be carried with ta'zeer in the absence of 4 witnesses. I remind myself and everyone else that please let's not speak about sharee' rulings without knowledge.
Re: Serious Question for Muslims
rehne do. this is a discussion forum, and not a forum for clerics to issue hadds.
and i acknowledged the version of correct implementation in my post. it changes nothing as far as i am concerned.
Re: Serious Question for Muslims
My statements are based from the Quran, so I don't know how much closer to a "sharia" ruling you can get...please look up the verses in the Quran that pertain to adultery and fornication for reference.
You need 4 witnesses to prove an act of adultery and fornication - in other words, they have to visually see the act of sex. You cannot give these kinds of punishments for someone having walked in company of another person of opposite sex. Makes no sense Islamically.
Even if the woman is a full dead on adulteress, and she has been accurately convicted so, here's what I want to know:
Where is the man she committed her act with and how was he punished?
Why and under what circumsances did the 4 witnesses catch the couple in action? Have the Taleban taken up the hobby of sexual voyeurism?
Does not explain to me the method of the punishment - why was she held down the way she was? Why were they hitting her on the behind, rather than the back? Why was she held down - why not just tied to a pole or maybe she could have been held down by women?
The punishment of 40 lashes is described in the Quran, and so I would not have a problem with that, but the Quran does not call for public lashings. And if you bother to read the hadith literature then you will find hadith that clearly state how avoidant the Prophet was in even trying to administer these punishments or look for such sinners. There is a famous one of a man who sinned who confessed to Muhammed and Muhammed (SAW) tried to find every reason not to punish the guy before exasperated and completely bewildered by how desperate the man was in seeking a punishment, that he finally did reluctantly deliver the punishment. I see no such spirit in the Taliban.
Simple guys. There is no rocket science here. What that video shows is not Islam, and if you think it is, then you need counseling for mental health issues, or possibly, you need to get evaluated for delirium.
You have given the correct and traditional opinion.....thank you.
My statements are based from the Quran, so I don't know how much closer to a "sharia" ruling you can get...please look up the verses in the Quran that pertain to adultery and fornication for reference.
You need 4 witnesses to prove an act of adultery and fornication - in other words, they have to visually see the act of sex. You cannot give these kinds of punishments for someone having walked in company of another person of opposite sex. Makes no sense Islamically.
Even if the woman is a full dead on adulteress, and she has been accurately convicted so, here's what I want to know:
Where is the man she committed her act with and how was he punished?
Why and under what circumsances did the 4 witnesses catch the couple in action? Have the Taleban taken up the hobby of sexual voyeurism?
Does not explain to me the method of the punishment - why was she held down the way she was? Why were they hitting her on the behind, rather than the back? Why was she held down - why not just tied to a pole or maybe she could have been held down by women?
The punishment of 40 lashes is described in the Quran, and so I would not have a problem with that, but the Quran does not call for public lashings. And if you bother to read the hadith literature then you will find hadith that clearly state how avoidant the Prophet was in even trying to administer these punishments or look for such sinners. There is a famous one of a man who sinned who confessed to Muhammed and Muhammed (SAW) tried to find every reason not to punish the guy before exasperated and completely bewildered by how desperate the man was in seeking a punishment, that he finally did reluctantly deliver the punishment. I see no such spirit in the Taliban.
Simple guys. There is no rocket science here. What that video shows is not Islam, and if you think it is, then you need counseling for mental health issues, or possibly, you need to get evaluated for delirium.
My statements are based from the Quran, so I don't know how much closer to a "sharia" ruling you can get...please look up the verses in the Quran that pertain to adultery and fornication for reference.
You need 4 witnesses to prove an act of adultery and fornication - in other words, they have to visually see the act of sex. You cannot give these kinds of punishments for someone having walked in company of another person of opposite sex. Makes no sense Islamically.
Even if the woman is a full dead on adulteress, and she has been accurately convicted so, here's what I want to know:
Where is the man she committed her act with and how was he punished?
Why and under what circumsances did the 4 witnesses catch the couple in action? Have the Taleban taken up the hobby of sexual voyeurism?
Does not explain to me the method of the punishment - why was she held down the way she was? Why were they hitting her on the behind, rather than the back? Why was she held down - why not just tied to a pole or maybe she could have been held down by women?
The punishment of 40 lashes is described in the Quran, and so I would not have a problem with that, but the Quran does not call for public lashings. And if you bother to read the hadith literature then you will find hadith that clearly state how avoidant the Prophet was in even trying to administer these punishments or look for such sinners. There is a famous one of a man who sinned who confessed to Muhammed and Muhammed (SAW) tried to find every reason not to punish the guy before exasperated and completely bewildered by how desperate the man was in seeking a punishment, that he finally did reluctantly deliver the punishment. I see no such spirit in the Taliban.
Simple guys. There is no rocket science here. What that video shows is not Islam, and if you think it is, then you need counseling for mental health issues, or possibly, you need to get evaluated for delirium.
rightly said.
health of the case can be seen through how punishment was administered, it seems they were more interested in putting up a show to harass people.