Re: Serious Question for Muslims
Wow, I actually agree with a post by PCG. Aside from ascribing it to Talibanistic law, just because someone performed it in some village in Pakistan and dresses like a local of that region.
Thats like attesting that every black guy is a shaman from some village, because I saw some shamans in a documentary performing voodoo magic in their villages somewhere, and they were black. Thus, Michael Jordan is a voodoo performing Shaman.
Re: Serious Question for Muslims
Clearly the world is coming to an end when people hail PCG views of Islam. Do you really think that she has done some research on Islam? The best she has done is online search for those verses. Do not take this post as the agreement to the Swat Incident, I am merely questioning the wisdom of agreeing with PCG.
PCG, do you care to explain how many Books of Ahadith you have read? How many did you consult to come to these conclusions/fatwas? How many tafaseer of quran did you go through? How many books did you read that describe Prophet Muhammad and events in his lifetime from purely historical perspective?
I understand that you have a very high opinion of yourself, but, do admit to yourself that you are not a scholar of Islam. You are free to bash Taliban for what they did, without providing us with you islamic fatwas.
Re: Serious Question for Muslims
I think that Islamic idea of punishment is more of a deterrent for crimes than just making someone pay for what they did. If everyone knows that they'll get a hand cut off if they steal, they wont.
But, these punishments are only applicable when we have a true Islamic welfare state where needs of people are cared for and judicial system is transparent. Unfortunately, at this moment, there is no state like that.
Clearly the world is coming to an end when people hail PCG views of Islam. Do you really think that she has done some research on Islam? The best she has done is online search for those verses. Do not take this post as the agreement to the Swat Incident, I am merely questioning the wisdom of agreeing with PCG.
PCG, do you care to explain how many Books of Ahadith you have read? How many did you consult to come to these conclusions/fatwas? How many tafaseer of quran did you go through? How many books did you read that describe Prophet Muhammad and events in his lifetime from purely historical perspective?
I understand that you have a very high opinion of yourself, but, do admit to yourself that you are not a scholar of Islam. You are free to bash Taliban for what they did, without providing us with you islamic fatwas.
There are no PCG views of Islam, there is only Islam. She is merely quoting the Quran, and no there isn't anything wrong with that part of her posts...the rest is...anyones call.
Clearly the world is coming to an end when people hail PCG views of Islam. Do you really think that she has done some research on Islam? The best she has done is online search for those verses. Do not take this post as the agreement to the Swat Incident, I am merely questioning the wisdom of agreeing with PCG.
PCG, do you care to explain how many Books of Ahadith you have read? How many did you consult to come to these conclusions/fatwas? How many tafaseer of quran did you go through? How many books did you read that describe Prophet Muhammad and events in his lifetime from purely historical perspective?
I understand that you have a very high opinion of yourself, but, do admit to yourself that you are not a scholar of Islam. You are free to bash Taliban for what they did, without providing us with you islamic fatwas.
I dont have any clue why you are singling out a specific poster's views and asking her clerical background. If you are consistent with this strategy (and I am sure you will be) you will have to go through thousands of posters, and ask them what their clerical background is. Let me make the job easier for you: most people here are not scholars of Islam as you are and expect them to be.
This is a discussion forum though, designed to allow non-scholars to discuss religious issues. There are other, more specialized forums, for those scholars who's opinions you wish to hear. I can direct you to those if you wish.
Fourth point: These punishments of flogging, if anyone bothered to read the Quran, which seems to be such an out of fashion practice these days apparently, is for women who engaged in premarital sex. That requires 4 witnesses. Where is the evidence for this? If its sex during marriage (adultery), punishment is death. Which can be done behind closed doors - it doesn't need to be done publicly and not with human flesh hanging off a pole like you see in a butcher's shop (reference: khooni chowk of Swat). Anything outside of that gets no physical punishment, as there is none perscribed in the Quran. You talk to a boy, you do NOT get beaten in public for it. You even so much as bat your eyelashes at a boy, or smile at him and give him your "mobile number and style number", you do not get beaten in public. WHY cannot the muslim world come to terms with the Quran?
Then how were the witness produced in the olden days and flogging was actually done in prophet's time? U say its and out of fashion practice? do we have the right to pick and choose practices from the Quran according to our needs and fashion? one day someone will say oh, Namaz is so out of fashion, we dont have time for that(God for Bid)
Re: Serious Question for Muslims
Nima, would you please share with us a rough figure of how many public floggings of women were done in the time of the Prophet where the floggers were unable to come public with solid proof that a trial was held, all opinions and witnesses were heard, and a judgement was made in accordance with directions of punishment for zina as defined in the Quran? Where anyone and everyone who tried to explain the flogging had a different story of it? Furthermore, how many floggings, in general were done where there were actually 4 eye witnesses of the zina event, and where the flogging was done in public?
This should take care of the answer to your question.
As for requests on my knowledge of Islam, I would like to recommend the reader to open the Quran from page 1 and just keep reading. The details for punishments of extra-marital affairs and pre-marital affairs are clearly outlined there, and if you would like to contest that, please request an audience with God.
Re: Serious Question for Muslims
U asked the same Question? Then why was such law made? or is it man made?
Re: Serious Question for Muslims
just plain medieval savagery, this sort of "punishment" for social behavior.
The punishment of 40 lashes is described in the Quran, and so I would not have a problem with that, but the Quran does not call for public lashings.
Please refer to the Quranic verse below:
24.2: The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
Re: Serious Question for Muslims
Right, a pary of believers. Does not mean the same thing as doing it in public, then taping it and putting it up on youtube or whatever, which has been done. You can do it behind closed doors with a few pious witnesses, in the company of women, as she herself is a woman, which was also not done.
100 stripes - I mistakenly remembered the number 30-40, because of certain hadith saying that's the number the Prophet picked, as he was too merciful to give the 100. Not to mention each time he was faced with the situation, the adulterer/adulteress came forth and confessed themselves, and the Prophet was very avoidant of delivering the punishment, finding every excuse he could to avoid it, and often telling people to pray to God and ask Him for forgiveness instead.
Ironically, the Taliban, who have publicly stated they are sunnis and not shias, who go so far as to bomb the crap out of shia sites and shia peoples, are the very people who do polar opposite of what the Prophet would have done, as evidenced by whatever historical documents we have at hand.
Again, that says something. :)
U asked the same Question? Then why was such law made? or is it man made?
alright, lets go back to the question you asked - how were the witnesses produced? Please refer to the numerous hadith on this topic - the witnesses were never sought by Muhammed as he was not interested in finding out who was sleeping with who and delivering flogging punishments. This is very evident in the way he handled situations in which people ASKED for the floggings pointe blank. If there were witnesses they were asked to come forth, naturally, but in all of the incidents I have read about in hadith, the person confessed the crime, in which there was no need for 4 witnesses. Next step is to make sure the person is in their senses and not a mental health patient, which Muhammed would actually inquire about - i.e. were they drunk, did they have a history of madness, etc.
I have not read of any evidence suggesting the floggings were done in a public forum, with men holding down a female, her clothes drawn up to expose her bottom, and then flogged on the bottom with males looking on. Never heard of such a thing from people I've learned from, and never read anything to suggest such a thing. This is a telltale mark of Taleban though, they were known to do such things in Afghanistan back in the 90's.
Re: Serious Question for Muslims
PyariCgudia
Ask how many flogging in prophet time.
In those time muslim population was less, sharia law was implemented and the very law served as such a deterrent that people dare not indulge in such activity. There were lashing for drunkenness also., and if there a couple of incident where a couple was stoned of flogged then this punishment alone served as a scare that peple dare not even think about it.
Today why illeagal sex is on the increase cos there is no harsh punishment for it, all social evils are there in front of our eyes, unpunished.
i read the Hadith.. Sahih Bukhari book 3 hadith 81
"*Narrated Anas: I will narrate to you a Hadith and none other than I will tell you about after it. I heard Allah’s Apostle saying: From among the portents of the Hour are (the following): 1. Religious knowledge will decrease (by the death of religious learned men). 2. Religious ignorance will prevail. 3. There will be prevalence of open illegal sexual intercourse. 4. Women will increase in number and men will decrease in number so much so that fifty women will be looked after by one man. *
Right, a pary of believers. Does not mean the same thing as doing it in public, then taping it and putting it up on youtube or whatever, which has been done. You can do it behind closed doors with a few pious witnesses, in the company of women, as she herself is a woman, which was also not done.
You, me, few guppies, thousands of others can have their own views how to handle "a party of the Believers witness the punishment". How did Prophet PBUH do it? Was it behind closed doors? I believe that was not the case.
What Taliban do, how they do it, why they do it revolves around their show of power, abuse of people's belief etc.
Re: Serious Question for Muslims
is this the future? Provincial people enjoying Sharia and the Pakistani diaspora enjoying whether the lashings were carried out in a manner prescribed by Quran or not?
Will nobody even argue the point about whether it is a really a crime or not to socialize? this is the 21st century!
is this the future? Provincial people enjoying Sharia and the Pakistani diaspora enjoying whether the lashings were carried out in a manner prescribed by Quran or not?
Will nobody even argue the point about whether it is a really a crime or not to socialize? this is the 21st century!
Please, don't poke your nose when you don't have any idea about whether people are enjoying it or crying over it.
Punishment is not disturbing, it is totally legal if a girl or a guy find guilty they can be punished. There are some rules to follow, not you and I can go and punish anyone there are authorities and courts to decide. Also a female can not be punished publicly.
Sharia is ultimate law of the land and it supercedes any court of the world. I hope you know little bit of Islam- why can a female not be punished publicly?? If a female is guilty of adultery or dressing un-Islamic, she should be punished publicly and everyone should be made to watch. This is justice.
Re: Serious Question for Muslims
DAWN.COM | + Pakistan | Man who made Swat flogging video speaks to DawnNews
REALITY CHECK - All the rotten Taliban sympathizers, please read and die of shame (doubtful though if you ever had any)
Re: Serious Question for Muslims
Who is Taliban sympathizer here? 
Please, don't poke your nose when you don't have any idea about whether people are enjoying it or crying over it.
even if one didn't have any idea before, this thread clarifies how people are feeling about it. Which is why I asked the question