Serious Implications of Terrorist Activities For Muslims - An Open Debate

arguing with u guys is like banging one's head aganist a wall. I'd just like to repeat that before you point your fingers at muslims, take care of ur own christian wackos, who god knows may do what (like conspire to cleanse muslims from the "Holy Land") to expedite the arrival of "peaceful" Jesus Christ. You guys need to condemm them n take out rallies n stuff.

Lets just hope that the voices of God in their head don't instruct them to take such drastic measues because by then it would be too late to stop them.

What is it, the water some of you drink???

What I hear some of you saying is that there is no need for the majority of Muslims to engage in self reflection and be concerned about Islamic terrorists beheading and slitting the throats of people around the world, blowing up civilian planes, kidanpping or killing children, and even killing other Muslims all in the name of Allah and in conformity with their religious duty as they interpret the holy scriptures because their actions are unIslamic according to your interpretation of the holy scriptures.

My ** PERCEPTION ** is that much of the disconnect between Muslims and the rest of the world stems from the need, desire, belief, etc. of Muslims to view Islam as a single, unified, homogenous, monotheistic religion. I don't view Christianity as such. There are Baptists, Presbyterians, Episcopalians, Southern Batists, Lutherans, Roman Catholics and a hole bunch more people who call themselves Christians. These divisions stem from different interpretations of the same holy scriptures.

The reality that so many seem to just want to ignore is that these same divisions exist in Islam. An Islamic terrorist who praises Allah and beheads people in conformity with Islamic fatwahs is a Muslim and is practicing Islam whether you wish to acknowledge it or not. That's what the non-Islamic world perceives and believes. It may not be the same Islam you are practicing, but it is Islam nonetheless. And the proclivity of so many to believe that an injury or action directed at anyone who happens to call themselves Muslim is an injury or action directed at everybody who happens to call themselves Muslim only feeds this perception.

If you think the rest of the world is discerning enough to understand that children being educted in Islamic religious schools in the most violent and virulent interpretation of Islam imaginable, who are taught that their religious duty to Allah is to strap a pound of dynamite around their waists and kill themselves and as many Americans and Jews as possible to obtain their afterlife rewards, and who act in conformity with what they are taught is their Islamic duty are not really Muslims or Islamic because they have done unIslamic acts, you are living in some kind of serious denial. It is your duty to fight our perceptions, not our duty. It is your duty to explain and educate us, in words and actions, as to why this is not Islam. And that is pretty hard to do when you won't even engage in debate amongst yourselves and recognize what the rest of the world is seeing.

And BTW, if you believe me to be anti-Islam because I try to discern the difference and distinction between what I view as different versions of Islam, so be it. It is the only way that I can keep the actions of the minority of Muslims from tainting my perception of what I hope and believe are the majority of Muslims. I believe that the Islam practiced by the majority of Muslims is a peaceful religion and from those Muslims who I have personally known, I believe they share the same morals, values and principles that I do although I claim adherence to a different religion.

hey guys, the attacks on mosques and innocent bystanders are sick and need condemned.

but what is this all the hue and cry by the JEs(Jihadi Elements)...if anyone you guys should be in best position to "understand" the anger and hurt that Nepalese might have felt after 12 of their brothern were killed. JEs get hurt so quickly that they ahve rastionalized almost every violence in the world by now...show some heart and sympathy with the Nepalese hooligans who are mobbing the streets.

such ppl don't have a religion

Seminole keeps saying that mosques are burnt down in reaction, the majority is percieved negatively in reaction, everything is a reaction, and yet they're the ones who find causal factors such distractions when discussing violence in the Middle East, in Kashmir in Iraq.

We, the ones deemed to be introspective. Every so often you see a thread from us condemning this condemning that. Cite a single thread where any of our foreign visitors who clamour for introspection actually did something along those lines. Heck I've seen these people justify and rationalise Muslim victimisation, demonisation massacre whatever the topic be whenever the oppurtunity presented itself.

We, the largely urbane people who post on this message board are not likely to bomb anyone anytime soon. Nobody here thinks any of the **** that goes on in the world that the western media subscribes to our name is right OR that it should be subscribed to us. You talk about the Muslim on the street, ask him if he is going to blow himself up anytime soon. Does that matter? No.

You are the ones who need introspection. You are the ones escalating and rejoicing in the clash of the civilisations, not us.. based on the actions of brown criminals you are the ones who are spearing anyone who fits the bill.

Its repeatedly said that the majority of the Muslims arent bad, but the perception about them is bad and therefore they should do something about it. BULL****. Did americans EVER care about the perception they have around the world? You do know that you're the most frikkin unpopular nation in the world, and the only introspection you do after that is how the rest of the world indulges in hatefests and hates freedom etc. blame displacement maybe?

Do not impose your view of the world on us. Just isnt civilised.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Seminole: *
The point of this ONE thread is that instead of trying to educate the racist elements out of the non-Muslim society (God know there's plenty of that in Muslim societies as well), understand that there are and always will be those elements and by allowing the loudest, most visible voices of Muslims today to be the ones kidnapping and killing innocents, expect people to correlate them to Muslims in general. Of course I don't believe it's justified to retaliate against innocent Muslims, but you can't pretend it's not going to happen. What do you have more control or a say over - the activities of mobs burning mosques or the terrorists disguised as jihadis using Islam as a basis for their terror? When you have a majority of Pakistanis that look up to OBL as hero, don't be surprised when people hold you accountable for it.
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Seminole has a point..here...

Let the loudest, most visible face of Muslims today be the ones that condem violence. Probobly there are many muslims that condem violence.

The mass media seems partial to publishing those muslim voices who condone violence ... rather than those who condemn....as if the majority of muslim's condone violence against western civilians. I don't believe this is true.

I do think changing the wests perception of muslims is key.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by AvgAmericanGirl: *

Seminole has a point..here...

Let the loudest, most visible face of Muslims today be the ones that condem violence. Probobly there are many muslims that condem violence.

The mass media seems partial to publishing those muslim voices who condone violence ... rather than those who condemn....as if the majority of muslim's condone violence against western civilians. I don't believe this is true.

I do think changing the wests perception of muslims is key.
[/QUOTE]

Great to hear. If some quarters are percieving Muslims incorrectly, the onus lies on those quarters to fix their perception of us. "Introspection" isnt the answer.

Stop fixating on negative Muslim figureheads. No wait. Stop making them Muslim figureheads in the first place.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ChannMahi: *
hey guys, the attacks on mosques and innocent bystanders are sick and need condemned.

but what is this all the hue and cry by the JEs(Jihadi Elements)...if anyone you guys should be in best position to "understand" the anger and hurt that Nepalese might have felt after 12 of their brothern were killed. JEs get hurt so quickly that they ahve rastionalized almost every violence in the world by now...show some heart and sympathy with the Nepalese hooligans who are mobbing the streets.
[/QUOTE]

Then ChannMahi you should understand the pain of the Kashimris. The Palestinians. The Chechnyans. The Iraqis. You get the idea. Dont be a hypocrit. If you can "feel" for the 12 lost. You can certainly "feel" for the 1000s' of people lost in the above conflicts.

Myvoice your perception is that its ok to kill children. I guess the hostage crisis is perfectly legit for you.

PD, which desi do you know has not condemned the acts as unislamic. There is a major difference between supporting these movements and saying they are islamic.

Dear Readers

You can not punish some one for some one else's crime. Would you? then you would not do justice. If you woukld not do justice; you are no more muslim. This is what islam is all about. Justice, justice and being just.

No one would ever achieve rightful right using wrong means.

Islam teaches patience, tolerance and justice. it does not demands cruelity, injustice,or intolernce, at all. It is mushrakeen's believe, what arab muslims are doing, for so long and teaching to asian illeterate, innocent muslims, who take arabs as prophets of islam and they have blind faith in them, that they know religion, the most. Playing with the innocence of asian's believe is also misguidence and it is again not islamic. Arabs should stop it and must understand they are behaving as non muslims.

It is better for them to correct themselves. It is gonahe kabera to take some ones life in islam. It is an unforgiveable sin. God would not forgive them ever for such sins.

Or are they behaving like mushrakeens then they did not stay muslims in their acts, any more.

I hope they understand it. Bye sokoon

"huh Qaradawai who?? that's your problem OG.. u don't know jack about the "Muslim World" except what appears in the news media which needs to snap out of it's "Archdiocese mentality" when referring to the "Muslim World"."

Uh, Robertson who? Falwell who? Thats your problem PA, you don't know jack about the Christian world except when a loud mouthed preacher gets his name in the paper by saying something provacative.

Please let me know when Falwell or Roberson are calling for the killing of civilians....

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by CM: *

Then ChannMahi you should understand the pain of the Kashimris. The Palestinians. The Chechnyans. The Iraqis. You get the idea. Dont be a hypocrit. If you can "feel" for the 12 lost. You can certainly "feel" for the 1000s' of people lost in the above conflicts.

[/QUOTE]

You may be surprised to know that but I did...I did not only understood their pain but supported their causes until about 4/5 years ago......now what I see is not freedom fighters but merciless religious fanatics who pray on the weak and the helpless by plan and strategy not by accident.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5912071/

Self-criticism in Arab media follows school siege

Al-Arabiya GM: Muslims are main perpetrators of terrorism

jazak allah brother sadiqann for sharing this article with all of us…i am so glad to see that finally we Muslims are realizing the disastrous consequences of the barbarism imposed on all us by these so called mujahids…The million dollar statement is made by Abdulrahman al-Rashed, general manager of Al-Arabiya television. He said:

“Most perpetrators of suicide operations in buses, schools and residential buildings around the world for the past 10 years have been Muslims. Muslims will be unable to cleanse their image unless “we admit the scandalous facts, rather than offer condemnations or justifications."

Now no need to be upset. This statement is made by a Muslim and it demands attention not confrontation. That is exactly what I wanted to point out in this thread. we have to stand up and admit the scandalous facts…it is too late to offer half-hearted condemnation or justifications…it is time to be more pro-active against these terrorists.

Ahmed Bahgat, an Egyptian Islamist, wrote in his column in Egypt’s leading pro-government newspaper, Al-Ahram, that hostage-takers in Russia as well as in Iraq are only harming Islam.

“If all the enemies of Islam united together and decided to harm it … they wouldn’t have ruined and harmed its image as much as the sons of Islam have done by their stupidity, miscalculations, and misunderstanding of the nature of this age,”

In essence, it appears to me that slowly but gradually we Muslims have started to realize the wrong ideology behind terrorism. I am also glad to see that we at WA forum are already having a dialogue to address this multi-dimensional problem. It will take sometime but inshallah soon we will prevail against this cancer named terrorism.

Where is the dialogue on state sponspored terrorism aka Russian repression of chechnya and surrounding states, isreali terrorism and repression of the Palestinian peoples, US terrorism and repression of the Afghani and Iraqi peoples.

Look at South America, Nicaragua, Chile, Panama, endless counts of US state sponsored terrorism. Indonesia under Suharto butchering in east timor under the watchful eye of the US. Sponsored and sanctioned acts of terror, not an individual or a group of extreme mad men, but cold calculated government sponsored mass murder for economic profit, is this too big and nasty to even comprehend, it's bigger than Muslims, so we shouldn't think on it?

Introspection is great but without balance and addressing the root causes it is i'm afraid to say horse ****, no matter which Muslim is for it.

**The western media/governments and delusional thinkers in the Muslim world are well practiced at shifting focus off the injustice freedom fighters face and onto their method of retaliation against it.

We as Muslims can condemn the method of the freedom fighter, accept the motive of the freedom fighter but can’t ignore the injustice the freedom fighter faces. **

"addressing the root causes"

I may barf.

How about people, just plain evil people, using said root causes as an excuse for violence.

Pray tell, what root cause justifies beheadings, the intentional deaths of 170 children, downing of 2 airliners, 100 commuters in Spain?

I think PD had a great quote above:

“Most perpetrators of suicide operations in buses, schools and residential buildings around the world for the past 10 years have been Muslims. Muslims will be unable to cleanse their image unless “we admit the scandalous facts, rather than offer condemnations or justifications."

“If all the enemies of Islam united together and decided to harm it ... they wouldn’t have ruined and harmed its image as much as the sons of Islam have done by their stupidity, miscalculations, and misunderstanding of the nature of this age,”

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Thap: *

**The western media/governments and delusional thinkers in the Muslim world are well practiced at shifting focus off the injustice freedom fighters face and onto their method of retaliation against it.

We as Muslims can condemn the method of the freedom fighter, accept the motive of the freedom fighter but can’t ignore the injustice the freedom fighter faces. **
[/QUOTE]

I suggest you re-read the above and tell me what you consider unreasonable, your views and suggestions provide no solution to terrorism.

You are stook at method and condemnation, yes I condemn too, now onto motive and and justice.

Think it through to the end, more bombs, assasinations and repression aren't the answer ask the Isrealis if they feel safe after 50 years of it. Ask the Palestinians whether they feel they are getting justice.

Think out of the box.

PD and OG please explain to me why should there be introspection on the part of people who are no way linked to these acts?

I mean personally OG i think you should introspect to whether you are a racists american solider who likes place men in homosexual positions. If you arent i suggest you ask your neighbour if he is one and his neighbour and so on and so forth.

Fine,

I suggest that the leaders of the Palestinian State immediately renounce terrorism, cease the intifada and appeal for immediate and effective disscussions and ultimate binding mediation by the UN.

I suggest the Chechan rebels cease resistance and accept a compromise Quasi-Independent state.

I suggest Pakistan truely renounce Kashmiri attacks, and negociate a settlement.

I suggest that Saudi Arabia truely cease funding Jihadi's waging war across the world.

It's called compromise. And the inability to compromise starts with Arafat. The success or death attitude of most Jihadi's prevents solutions. The attitude of inducing slow bleeding of civilians to achieve a plotical cause cannot be allowed to succeed, or it will induce more.

The point that is missed in the "root causes" is that after a while, the tactics are so heinous that even a noble cause is rendered irrelevant, as the evil actions are so morally bankrupt that the Jihadi's no longer deserve independece, or land, or statehood.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
Fine,

I suggest that the leaders of the Palestinian State immediately renounce terrorism, cease the intifada and appeal for immediate and effective disscussions and ultimate binding mediation by the UN.

I suggest the Chechan rebels cease resistance and accept a compromise Quasi-Independent state.

I suggest Pakistan truely renounce Kashmiri attacks, and negociate a settlement.

I suggest that Saudi Arabia truely cease funding Jihadi's waging war across the world.

It's called compromise. And the inability to compromise starts with Arafat. The success or death attitude of most Jihadi's prevents solutions. The attitude of inducing slow bleeding of civilians to achieve a plotical cause cannot be allowed to succeed, or it will induce more.

The point that is missed in the "root causes" is that after a while, the tactics are so heinous that even a noble cause is rendered irrelevant, as the evil actions are so morally bankrupt that the Jihadi's no longer deserve independece, or land, or statehood.
[/QUOTE]

I agree with almost all of what you say, infact all of it. But a caveat that must be placed on this is that, the way of the gun is not working for both sides, now what?

"I mean personally OG i think you should introspect to whether you are a racists american solider who likes place men in homosexual positions. If you arent i suggest you ask your neighbour if he is one and his neighbour and so on and so forth."

Pathetic and predictable.

This thread is not about Abu Graib, nor racism, nor sexual proclivities.

You have 1200 children imprisoned for 50 hours, drinking their own urine to remain hydrated, surrounded by bombs studded with nuts and bolts, in sweltering heat, and somehow your thoughts wander back to Abu Graib, as if that has anything to do with the attrocities?

How about an Islamic tribunal to prosecute terrorists who bomb innocents? Or to denounce clerics who urge attacks on civilians? At least the miscreants who committed Abu Graib are being tired. No Islamic nation actually has trials for terrorists. If they did they would face an angry public, because in many cases the public actually supports the terrorists. No one in American society supported or urged
Abu Graib.

But today there are meaningful changes. Al-Jazeera is refering to the child killers as an "armed gang", or "hostage takers", where last month these same people were "freedom fighters", and "mujahdeen", or "Jihadis". Today the Muslim world is finally ashamed of the people that they were proud of a month ago.

About time.