Serious Implications of Terrorist Activities For Muslims - An Open Debate

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
101

CM and Thap,

We cannot afford to play this game of always saying that terrorism is a reaction to state sponsored terrorism or occupation. That may all be true and it is in many cases, but the point to realize is that so deliberately and maliciously targeting innocent civilian is unacceptable even in times of war, not to mention peacetime. This is a new type of evil that the world just does not find acceptable, and we can see more and more nations turning against Muslims if we keep this up. Root causes, reaction to occupation and state brutality are all good talking points to discuss among intellectuals in drawing rooms all over Pakistan, but on the world stage, it won’t matter as the average person will get fed up of living in fear of Muslims and take matters in his own hands.

The final responsibility does lie with us for having producing such evil individuals from our own narrow-minded and intolerant societies. Yes, you or I did not commit these acts personally, but the fact that our co-religionists are prominent in worldwide acts of terrorism cannot be just shrugged of as an exception.

102

OG, so what do you suggest then, agreeing of course that the way of the gun is not working for either side, what compromise from the state in each case, the uniform, voted in stable elected body representing the people, what compromise from the state in each case? If the state can't compromisae how do you expect countless groups of freedom fighters to compromise?

Where is the tangible compromise, the setting of example? All I can see is a continuation of violence, both bodies are as bad as each other and take responsibilty for all ensuing violence.

Where is the dialogue all I see is sabre rattling then attacks from both sides, where are the road maps, where is the impartial judicial body, all I see is flouting of international law and biased reporting.

Both sides in each conflict must be given an equal footing when negotiating, without this more violence will happen as sure as there is gravity.

I see no solutions here only puppies yapping instrospection, I can change myself all I want but I can't remove the inherihant human need for justice in all matters.

103

Sadiqaan, explain to me how an innocent shop keeper in Syria is responsible for a terrorists? Show me the causal link.

OG its called introspection. Please introspect.

  1. They are usually dead, so unless you want to ask a corpse to talk it aint gonna work.
  2. Been there done that.

[quote]
*Today the Muslim world is finally ashamed of the people that they were proud of a month ago.
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*

Sweety please tell me where it says these men were freedom fighters from Chechnya. The Russians dont even say that. Their news media calls the men of some warlords. I had a russian friend of mine translate 7 sites for me. They dont claim to be chechnyan fighters.

I will never be ashamed of chechnyan freedom fighters, because they are not responsible for this act.

104

I believe that OG and Thap, both, have made valid points. And no I am not trying to be political here. That is exactly what I believe in.

First, OG is absolutely right that for how long we will be quite about beheadings, the intentional deaths of 170 children, downing of 2 airliners, 100 commuters in Spain assuming that such incidents were inevitable because the root causes were not being addressed. May be because majority of Muslims decided not to take any practical steps (half heartedly condemnation is not enough) against this sort of brutality for so long, it encouraged these terrorist elements to commit such horrendous crimes. These terrorists knew that they would always be able to hide behind Kalama and Holy Book and will never lose support among Muslim masses, no matter what they do. So first of all, regardless of political realities, every Muslim government should take practical steps against these terrorists with a full cooperation from Muslim masses. Attacks on innocents are absolutely not acceptable and should be condemned and curbed as effectively as possible.

Second, as pointed by Thap so rightly, while civilized world will be busy in eliminating these evil elements, there is an absolute need of addressing the root causes which nurtured such an environment that was conducive to growth of these evil elements. If the root causes of terrorism are not addressed, I am afraid we may have to face same atrocities few years later. West in general and USA in particular should understand that while Muslims will be willing to shake hands with its war on terrorism with full passion, "state sponsored and sanctioned acts of terror, not an individual or a group of extreme mad men, but cold calculated government sponsored mass murder should be stopped across the globe."

I believe that freedom is a gift of almighty Allah for every soul and if majority of a sizable group wants to live separately for whatever reasons, it has every right to do so. I consider it FIGHT FOR FREEDOM. We did it against Britain, blacks did it against white under leadership of nelson Mandela, Bengalis did it against west Pakistan, and lately East Timor did it against Indonesia. In the same way, Kashmiris, Palestines and checyahns also want freedom and we should totally support their fight for freedom. However there is a very thin line between being a freedom fighter and being a terrorist. Freedom fighters should keep this difference in mind or they will lose the support of a common man across the globe. Not to mentoon that fights for freedom can also be won the way Nelson Mandela, Mohmammed ali Jinnah, and Mohan Das Ghandhi won.

105

Dear Readers,

Assalam mun ale kum,

What one sows, so shall he reaps.

What we muslims are doing. Tit for tat. totally wrong.

What mushrakeens are doing we are doing the same.

Mushrakeens religion allowas them for tit for tat , ours does not.

We were suppose to have patience, tolerance, and we were supposed to reflect more religious values, in current environment; But what we did? We showed we are savage, we love to kill humans; we are not afraid of GOD at all.(on 9/11) an act of impatience, reflecting wrong values of muslim ummah.

What are we doing in Chachanneya?

Same kind of illiterate acts,I believe, it is more non islamic than 9/11 thinking. Killing children. Keeping them thirsty and without food for 3 long days. Yazeed also used to claim to be muslim. He had also used his emotions only. And later he said he repents; and had asked for forgiveness from GOD.

How would GOD forgive when Houqouq ul ebad are concerned, in some one sins such as killing. He had killed Rasoul's friends and families. They were the ones , he should have asked for forgiveness before GOD. He (GOD) has promised for forgiveness for houqouq allah's unaccomplishment of his Faraeez towards GOD only, such as namaz, rouza, etc etc;for such acts if some one asked forgiveness from heart and never commits that again.

Houqouq ul ebad if some one does not fulfill, would never be forgiven by GOD until the concerned person forgives.

So killing some one lakhte jegar is a unforgiveable sin. Jahannam and bus jahannaum is the place for those who take lives or give lives and KHUKASHSHE. Coward people who can not face others or the world's problems and do khudkhashes.

Allah musalmanoun kou hidayat karey. Ameen suma ameen.Bye sokoon

106

First, virulent Islam , that is, violent unrepentant Islam is like a virus in it's host. It lives in the body of the Ummah, growing feasting and replicating within the host. The host protects it, and at first denies the symptoms. Eventually the virus starts to destroy the host, by slowly eating at the fabric of the host. The human body does the same thing. It takes the human immune system quite a long time to react to a virus, and before the time of antibiotics, quite frequently the victim rallied at only the very last moment to defeat the invader from within.

We are at the moment when the victim, legitimate Islam, realizes that it has a disease. The question is, will the Ummah rally to preseve the integrity of the body of Islam before it is destroyed or crippled. So how do you respect the victim and still kill the disease? First, it helps if the victim cooperates and comes to grip with the disease. Second, the victim, must cooperate with the outside world to treat the illness, and reduce the infection. The outside world cannot impose a solution on Islam, at best it can prevent the rest of the world from falling victim to the same disease.

Violent Islam, is a disease, or perhaps the worlds largest cult. As with all cults, it has echos of legitimacy, and then mutates into something deadly and bizzare. I think we have seen enough in the past few weeks to constitute bizzare.

At best the "root causes" are contributory factors to the disease. They allow the disease to flourish. But your "root factors" are not the causitive agent. You could improve your diet (free palestine), get more exercise, (solve Kashmir), and still you would have the virus. You need to rally a team of experts and swallow some bitter medicine.

107

CM, you misread my post. I said the opposite of what you implied.

108

PD,

I suggest you think along these lines:

  1. There are many sources of injustice in this world. But only a few groups of people, largely Muslims, seem to use injustice as a cause to perpetrate more injustice. No one denies that the Russians have committed unspeakable atrocities upon the Chechen people. Many non-Muslims even condoned attacks on Russian soldiers or politicians - at least there were few protests when that happened.

  2. First the Chechen fighters used to attack Russian troops. Then they attacked bases and political targets. No one complained. Then they slowly started attacking civilians - you know those attacks that seemed to be aimed at troops but also killed civilians - few people complained beyond the usual - "We deplore violence."

  3. Now the Chechens are attacking places where it is clear that they INTENDED to hurt only civlians, including women and children. During the Beslan siege there were no clear demands. It was very obvious from the beginning that they intended to kill as many kids as possible. They planned for this by hiding heavy explosives in the school and by using mines.

No matter what their cause is - by only targeting children, they have discredited it for a long time. All excuses like "Those who did it are not Muslims" or "Islam does not allow it" are BS. Whenever one hears "We condemn this but consider the root cause" stuff AFTER such an atrocity, the credibility meter goes to zero.

Let me give you an example. There are many Ahmadis who are persecuted in Pakistan. So what if one guy who lost his family member takes a Kalashnikov and goes and guns down Muslim kids in a park to "express frustration?" How many here will "understand" that?

We live in a dangerous world. There are atrocities by governments. We can understand if rebels target military men and innocents get killed in the process. But when "rebels" target and kill Children to make a point, they have crossed a line and their cause gets flushed down a toilet as it should be.

109

Talwar, Ahmadis will never resort to stuff like that (we may hire some others to do the job for us - specially the jobless youth with oily hair). I can understand if a few Shias blow themselves up during the next Eid Prayers at Shahi Mosque in Lahore to revenge the killings of Shias while in prayers by terrorist thugs. Even though it will be an unislamic thing to do (borrowing CMs hollow logic), but I can understand if Shias did it (if they did). Just like what happened at Abu Gharib, it was very un-American thing to do by a few prison guards, but I can understand why they did it. They should have done a little more of that, and I would have understood it more. Again borrowing pothead logic.

Whomever is trying to find excuses and justifications for blood thirsty terrorists is equally to be blammed for the massacre of little kids (LITTLE KIDS) --- and you have schmucks here who believe that every kid in America is walking with a gun in his hand. Just think of the LITTLE KIDS. Next one might be your own.

110

ChannMahi missed your post. So what changed your mind Sept 11? Or the fact that you decided to lump everyone together because Bush said so?

NYA Pothead logic is ignoring your own moral code. Since you dont have one, i am not at all surprised by your post. Just because you understand the reason for something it does not make it right nor islamic. After all the average american doesnt think it is right for Bush to go attacking any country he wishes. But then again they understand his reasons.

There are three concept which are all different. What is right. What is Islamic and what we understand or choose to believe. As for the shia bombing example. Yes i understand why it would happen. But i still doesnt make it right.

Innocents on no side should be targetted. Only military and political targets.

OG you very first statement is wrong so i am not gonna bother reading the rest of the post. Religion regardless which one is divine and thus never wrong or unjust or evil. Thus it is not a virus. Once you understand that we can move on.

Talwar this is the first time i agree with you.

PD what practical steps do you think innocent people who dont have anything to do with a conflict should undertake to prevent terrorism. Please list them.

111

"OG you very first statement is wrong so i am not gonna bother reading the rest of the post. Religion regardless which one is divine and thus never wrong or unjust or evil."

So the Crusades were OK with you? Nothing evil has ever been done in the name of religion? Tell that to Jim Jones's "Peoples Temple", drinking poison punch.

More denial.

112

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by CM: *

PD what practical steps do you think innocent people who dont have anything to do with a conflict should undertake to prevent terrorism. Please list them.
[/QUOTE]

Dear CM, war against terrorism is not like an ordinary war where two armies would have fought and in the end, there will be one winner. In this war against terrorism, the enemy is everywhere and as a matter of fact many times it is hidden among us. That is where a common man can play a very important role. As a matter of fact innocent and common people have such an important role to play in this war against terrorism that I am bound to say that no war against terrorism could be won comprehensively until and unless a common man in the streets is ready to step up and shake hands with government institutions.

Now let me be more specific and clear my point by giving some examples from real life. First of all, a common man should always inform police or other agencies if he sees any thing out of order. This alone would make a vast difference and these terrorists will find it increasingly difficult to hide in our small cities at least. Best example would be Gujarat case where two most wanted terrorists were caught with their families. Gosh, these terrorists have now started hiding in small towns in middle of Punjab where no one would have ever imagined them to be. Now why in the world, the landlord of that home where these terrorists were hiding rented his place to 2 Tanzanians and African looking people and never informed police about it. I mean it is extremely out of character for a landlord living in a small town like Gujarat to expect some African-Arab looking people to come and ask for his place to rent. So I guess that landlord should have informed police right away. When police raided on the house these terrorists fought against police for so hours and hours with so much ammunition. They brought in so much ammunition and weapons and it is hard to believe that no one in that street ever noticed. Exact same case happened in other city Faisalabad where some big terrorists were hiding for so many months and no one ever informed police about them.

Second, a common man can be more careful before donating his money to these organizations. I know from my personal experiences that Pakistanis are one of the most open-hearted people when it comes to donating money. Millions and millions of donations are made every year. Innocent people should make sure that they are not donating their money to such organizations which have a reputation of Negative Jihadism. And again it is only possible when people will have a genuine believe in war against terrorism.

Third, when a common person will start believing genuinely that this Jihadism is in wrong direction, these terrorist organizations will find it increasingly difficult to hire people who are ready to blow themselves. It itself will make a huge difference.

113

Hmmm, some nice personal perspectives. :k:

114

Pheonix desi,

By the sound of it you have been supporting terror and jihadi movemnts for quite some time, it is good that you recognise it is wrong and have stopped, well I hope you have. But what about the rest of the Muslims, the majority who have never supported terror but only justice for Muslim causes?

115

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Thap: *
Pheonix desi,

By the sound of it you have been supporting terror and jihadi movemnts for quite some time, it is good that you recognise it is wrong and have stopped, well I hope you have. But what about the rest of the Muslims, the majority who have never supported terror but only justice for Muslim causes?
[/QUOTE]

hmm....i used to support terror and jihadi movements for quite some time?????? where did u get that idea from.....anyway you are entitled to your opinion.......

116

I assumed as much from your statements of what Muslims should stop doing, I don't know of any Muslims who support terror in those ways or any other, you seem to be speaking from experience though, anyway as I said I hope you've stopped, which is great.

But please do tell us more, and also how you think we should support justice too?

117

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Seminole: *

What acts are you talking about? Because I see a lot of support and/or excuses for Palestinain homicide bombers. Exactly which self proclaimed jihadis blowing up civilians are Islamic and which are not?
[/QUOTE]

Actually the Palestinians are suicide bombers. It's the ZIONISTS who are homicide bombers from the safety of their choppers, F-16s, tanks. Both to be condemned without hesitation. Unfortunately I see a lot of support and/or excuses for the zionist homicide bombers.

Good thread PD. Often the condemnation by the Muslim majority of the vile acts carried out by terrorists is not reported in main stream media and this contributes to the perception that the majority of Muslims are in some way agreeing with these tactics. Justice is the name of the game, unfortunately many (most?) Muslims have only very limited knowledge of what is in the Quran and thus do not know how clearly and stongly the holy book condems the killing of innocent people. Instead of just rote recitation in Arabic we need to also read it in translation to begin to understand the message therein.

118

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Awam ki Awaz: *

Muslims have only very limited knowledge of what is in the Quran and thus do not know how clearly and stongly the holy book condems the killing of innocent people. Instead of just rote recitation in Arabic we need to also read it in translation to begin to understand the message therein.
[/QUOTE]

a very good point indeed....

119

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Awam ki Awaz: *

Actually the Palestinians are suicide bombers. It's the ZIONISTS who are homicide bombers from the safety of their choppers, F-16s, tanks. Both to be condemned without hesitation. Unfortunately I see a lot of support and/or excuses for the zionist homicide bombers.

[/QUOTE]

A better point.....

120

yes, what of those who support 'retaliation'? do they need introspection too or is it just us?

why is retaliation a dirty word for us (as it should be) but not for them?