Sense of sacredness

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Mamaof3 nay farmaya:

"And last, flags are about your NATION. Holy books like the Koran are about your RELIGION. There is a respected disctinction here in the us of a that attempts to keep the two of these things separate. "

I can see how for so many people flag of their nation is far more sacred than holy book of someone else’s religion. A lot of people don’t give a hoot about religion. But that’s not the point. The point is who is one to decide that someone’s flag is not as much sacred to him as my holy book to me?

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Re: Sense of sacredness

Romeo, when you go to the bathroom, who is to decide is you make poopooh or peepee? People generally decide for themselves.

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Re: Sense of sacredness

Right. And people decide for themselves to flush out too.

My Vision 2007 (10,000) thread
My Vision 2007 (10,000) thread
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Re: Sense of sacredness

Absolutely Romeo.

Trying to get a consensus on stuff like this is trying to date two supermodels in one night. It doesn’t happen.

My Vision 2007 (10,000) thread
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Re: Sense of sacredness

Roman, no one said that the flag of their nation is far more sacred than holy book of someone else's religion. My flag is a piece of cloth to me, however I am patriotic about my nation for it is much more than a piece of cloth.

But aside from that : the Quran, the Torah, the Bible, add your special book here are BOOKS! Books held in esteem, passed down from generation to generation, books with the words of God written on them, but essentially just books.

I have read on this site people who write that kaffir should be killed, that sunni's don't deserve to live, that shiia are damned, people writing about support for the insurgents and cheering as people die. These same people get on their high horse about a book instead of being upset about the loss of a life.

God/Allah created man, his most precious creation, the one he loves the most.

Do you really thing God cares about a Bible or two being consecrated or abou a Quran being flushed down a tiolet? God created man so God understood that not all men are going to fear him or follow him, why can't you or anyone else follow the example of God in this understanding?

Destroying the words of our prophets and disciples does not change our hearts or the meaning of those words.

This being said, I have a Bible that has been passed down generation to generation in my family, there is births and deaths listed, my whole family tree. This Bible is kept in a box wrapped in velvet. It is taken out on special occasions and it is a source of comfort to me. It would devastate me if someone broke into my house and desecrated it by burning it or defiling it because of the history and because it is our link to our faith. But it is still a Book, the source of faith is man, not words.

Aik Din Ka Zikar hai...
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Re: Sense of sacredness

Ok. So why is that Muslims jump on the weagon to burn flags but the minute someone descrates their sacraments they are up in arms?

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Re: Sense of sacredness

Because they think it is a very great virtue to be upset when their faith is insulted.

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Re: Sense of sacredness

People try to piss each other off. Thats all, they (muslims) burn effigies of Bush and our flag, so we give them the impression that we flushed a book. They cant hack it so they kill their own 16 ppl. We revert to "na na nana na we didnt do it". They feel like idiots. Sorry part is the 16 dead. Neither the burnt effigies or the flushed book can bring the dead back. An arabic journalist captured it beautifully (the Jalalabad incident) that I quoted in one of the threads;Here it is again:

[QUOTE]
"When thousands in Afghanistan are concerned about a report in a magazine that does not reach them, written in a language they do not speak, leading them to protest in a manner unprecedented among other Islamic nations that do speak English, the matter is worth pursuing further: it tells us more about the dangers of propaganda and its exploitation by opposition groups than it does about spontaneous popular sentiments."
[/QUOTE]

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Re: Sense of sacredness

It is not a virtue to be upset, it is human to be upset. Upset is not a virtue or listed as one. When a faith is insulted, you have a right to be upset. Everybody can be upset at anything. That is a option of all human beings.

Getting upset and rioting and killing is wrong, no matter what was done to a BOOK, even a book of faith. Yell, protest, march, petition, do whatever it takes to make it understood that you are upset. Taking a human lives and destroying the property of others is not a the way your God would want you to protest. That is not a virtue, that is a sin. Man belongs to God, so by killing another you are destroying the property of God.

Which is worse in God's eyes, the idiot unbeliever flushing a Quran down a tiolet or you taking their life?

Aside from that, the man who bought the book, owns the book, he can do what he wishes to it. It is a book in the hand of a non-believer, my belief and yours will not change that. In the end it is all up to God and God alone to punish for that (if indeed he does), not to man.

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Re: Sense of sacredness

Many have the perverted belief that the person who insults their religion can be killed legally (halal?) for it…

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Re: Sense of sacredness

You are right, some have that belief.

And some here believe a Quran or a Bible has no significance. Both are wrong.

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Aisha religion would be a very broad term, the point is Muslims believe and its part of their faith that anybody who insults the holy Prophet or the Quran, these acts would come under blasphemy and sould be given the capital punishment, now it might seems pretty "archaic" for most of the non-muslims and muslims as well but that’s the law in many Islamic countries. Now we can argue about the use of this law, being fairly used or not, but that’s a separate issue.

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mini me, do the blasphemy laws (killing those who speak ill of the prophet or the quran) come from the quran?

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Re: Sense of sacredness

Minime Bhaijan, in the Islamic countries, is there any Law against desecrating symbols of other faiths, holy personalities of other faiths, holy books of other faiths? Is there any punishment (capital or lowercase) for these crimes?

Queer, killing a Hindu guarantees additional 6 Hoors. Convert!

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Re: Sense of sacredness

when the basic foundation of a faith and the prophet who starts the faith begins with breaking idols, gods to others, the concept of tolerance uttered by those faithfuls is laughable and dismissed. NEXT!!!!

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Re: Sense of sacredness

As a rule of thumb, one should not insult or destroy symbols publicaly that are sacred to other people because people have emotional attachment to symbols since childhood even before they knew their significance. No matter how much one grows up, it is hard to get rid of this emotional attachment. So if I don't want my sacred things to be insulted in front of me, I should not insult others either.

Now in privacy of ones own world, one can treat these things as one wants. Is US guards insulting Qoran an private act or sanctioned and condoned by AMERICA? I think even if it happened it was an act of some individuals. Anyone who has ever lived in America knows that desecrating religious symbols or books is not a state or public sanctioned regular activity....so if some guards have done so they should be investigated and punished per our own standards(not per standards of some 17th century mullahs in Jalalabad).

On the other hand I feel how among all the other places in the world, these idiots in Afghanistan and Pakistan protest against it so emotioanlly with a straight face while it was only a few years ago when we saw them blowing up sacred, ancient statues of Budha publically and with teh sole intention of destruction with full support of rulers and public? also people of no other nation burns more flags of other nations than Afghanistan an Pakistan on almost a daily basis.

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Good question. answer probably is they are not truly Islamic countries…but they are Islamic enough to kill you if you insult the prophet or Qoran.

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Re: Sense of sacredness

MiniMe - Please point out anywhere in the Quran where it says that a human life that Allah created and owns is worth less than a book, holy or not. Please point out anywhere in the Quran where it says that a human life that Allah created and owns is worth less a percieved insult of a religion (as you and I know, people perceptions of being insulted differ from one individual to another). Please point out anywhere in the Quran where it says that a human life that Allah created and owns is worth less than words.

I doubt you will find that in order to back up the man-made laws people impose on each other in the name of honoring a religion.

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Minah, you are right you will not find in Quran anything that will demean the human life or make it worthless in any way or shape. But one has to understand the back ground of this Insult and the reaction to it. I hope you understand what Place the holy Prophet (pbuh) and the Quran is given in Islam. If you have some idea about it then it would be easier for you to understand.

Insulting the Prophet (pbuh) or desecrating the Quran can never be part of an Islamic society nor can it be accepted as a norm under any circumstances. In such a society if someone tries to intentionally insult the holy prophet (pbuh) or intentionally tries to desecrate the Quran should the society accept it? No, I think it’s the right of that society to enact some laws and assign punishments which would discourage such acts. So if someone is found guilty for insulting he should be held accountable and should be given the severest punishment. Now we can argue about the punishment and it depends on the opinion of judges in Islamic world and how they interpret the Quran and the Suunah.

On of the mater of capital punishment under such circumstance (Intentionally insulting the Holy Prophet pbuh and Quran) there are several Ayahs which are used in favor and there are several Ayahs which are against the capital punishment.

I personally believe that if a person dose that intentionally then he is trying to incite a fitna (turmoil and tyranny) then he should be held accountable and should be punished to the maximum extent of the law, which is death in case of Pakistan.

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http://www.thedigitalcourier.com/articles/2005/05/24/news/news01.txt