Senior Indian politician expelled

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
121

What is the general indian perception about Qaid-e-Azam and Pakistan??
I am curious

Timepass-December 2013
122

pakistan is not an issue in general public....only media talksa a lot about this country and people have basically forgotten about jinnah, especially new generations are not interested in such things.
it is a fact.

123

Well, only a certain segment of the Christians trace their lineage to st Thomas as far as I know. The British missionaries also had a role..

124

Maybe they realized that Islam was the sure fire way of getting out of the perverse caste system that many people were beholden too.. Others were attracted to the peaceful message of Islam espoused by the Sufi saints.
Others did it for financial expediency, and others were directly descended from Muslim Arabs after the Arabs or others took local Hindu wives...

125

Yar and guess what you still wanted the control which you were not going to get in a HIndu mejority country having a secular politics. This was the sole reason of creation of Pakistan. This was the emotion that Jinnah utilized to gain currency among Indian well off muslims. They wanted to keep their jagirs and pensions. They can only do that in a theocratic society.

126

Hmmmmmmm, Ramadan Kareem brother.

[QUOTE]
We picked the winners, you picked the losers. Thats why we controled HINDU-stan for for countless centuries while you Hindus could hardly hold on to a single "princely" state without a nod from the British...:p
[/QUOTE]

Well I think muslims controlled Hindu-stan coz they had lust for power. And were ready to go to any extent for it. Example is that ur icon is Aurangzeb, who did examplery treatment with his father and brothers to become the hero of Muslim world.

And no doubt U picked the winners of this world. Very well done indeed.

Angels
127

Brother! Have you been able to really sideline these Indian Hindu Talibaans? Have you really achieved total peace, harmony, and tolerance in your society as you claimed in your earlier posts?...or you are living in a state of denial ???

I think you are confused. In this thread you claimed that Indian society has achieved harmony and tolerance and now you are ashamed of these Modis and Varuns..and you want us to believe that Indian society is not threatened with this mentality and these idiots don't have any significant infulence in Indian politics and society...

Either you are confused, or you are living in a state of denial or you are trying to fool us...with due respect brother !!!

[quote]
Where I critisized Islamic values? Now who is becoming too judgemental? Care to answer this? What misconceptions are U talking about? What is my attitude which is against Muslim's faith? care to answer? I only said that,

Now may I know how can U remain secular and an Islamic society together?
[/quote]

Sorry brother if my post gave you that impression. You have every right to express your opinion even if you feel something not exactly comfortable against Islam as being less tolerant...

Look what I meant from my post was that a certain Muslim hate mentality exist in you society (and I am not critisizing you personally)>>>

If you deny this statement let me convey you what I think...you live in a state of denial !!!

These religious extremist exist in your country and they do play an important rople in shaping the society, public opinion, media,a nd politics...and their infulence is growing in India !!q

[quote]
Secularism by Indian standards is that one is absolutely free to practise and propogate his or her religion. Those 200 million muslims U are talking about are not just living in India, they are as much Indians like any other Indian. India belong to them as much as to me or any other hindu or sikh or christian or even atheist.
[/quote]

Don't even try to invent some new Indain brand of secularism..and don't try to confuse the matter like some posters with extremist Islamist views try to confuse the matter with definitions. Secularism is just separation of church and government. An ideal situation in a secularist sountry should be that anyone seeking public office should keep his religious beliefs aside. No political party is allowed to form a party in the name of religion and persue poilitical career. In a secular society religion and ploitics don't go together.

Is it the case in India?

[Quote]
Why they are living in fear? Dont U watch Dr. Zakir Naik on peace tv telling to audience that Islam is only true religion and only way to jannah? even converting hindus live on his shows? Has he ever been persecuted for all this?
[/quote]

I am sorry I do not see peace tv and the clown... a I am unable to comment anything being done by this magician/comedian who infact has nothing to do with Islam !!!

[quote]
And U are saying they are not able to express themselves. Students from all over the world come to India to learn Islam from Indian Islamic institutions, and U are trying to make things like muslims are** opressed and second class citizens of India.**
[/quote]

Yes they are!!

They are often called Kantwas by majority population and are subjected to prejuidice behaviour and bullyed often by the government officials. I can give you one thousand examples. They are seen as suspect terrorist and general main stream population and the government does not trust muslms at all. If you are denying all this I think just out of your patriotism you are trying to fool us. There are people in this forum who do know the ground realities in India and are not as naive as you think generally are !!!

[Quote]
Can U answer this? Are these kind of freedom possible for hindus, Christians, Sikhs in Pakitan, now or ever? So Has Gandhi's values met the same fate as Jinnah's met in Pakistan?

Now U are most welcome to throw Gujrat, Modis, Varuns, Thackreys on my face, I m ready to blacken my face with that, but will that completely wipe out the achievements I just described?
[/quote]

Your different statements are themselves self contradictory. First you claimed India has achieved peace, harmony and tolerance. Then you are ashamed of Modis and Varuns...then you are trying to fool us that these guys do not play a significant role in your politics.

You may not like these Varuns and Modis but saying they have no infulence is really to big a lie...also Hamid Gul and Bailullah Mehsud do not hold a public office (against Modi who is the CM of Gujrat)...but yet they have an infulence...Hamid Gul at one time was the chief of ISI...

We in Pakistan now have come out of our state of denial...it's high time my sane Indian friends also do the same !!!

[quote]
Well I may be wrong in thinking that Jinnah's and Gandhi's secularims were two different things. I can claim for sure that Gandhi's secularism clash with real Islamic values, now U plz enlighten me how Jinnah's secular values were different than that of Gandhi's. We can discuess this seperate discussion in another thread if U want, but plz let me know what were Jinnah's secular values we are talking about.

And plz also point out what attitude, mind frame, and biases are in my post that U needed to remind me. Hope U obilige.

I take strong exception of ur comments. While I dont deny the warmth and hospitality Pakistani ppls have shown to Indians, I often read these things to my utter pleasure in media.

But U cant say otherwise for Indians brother. I cant imagine that U had to concele ur identity in India for fear of misbehave. U have every right to use it for creating ur understanding for India and tolrant nature of Indians. I cant say anything but begging for apology for this behaviour. But believe me, Indians I know are not like that. I dont know what kind of Indians were they.

No, I reject this as a exceptional incident where a Pakistani has to hide his identity among Indians just for fear of being misbehaved. However this is very unfortunate, but not happens too often in India.

InshAllah.
[/QUOTE]

My dear brother...

Sometimes my Indian muslim friends change their names or don't tell their real names in public...

Are you trying to fool us or you are not in touch with the ground realities in India...

I think you are confused !!!

In your mind you have made India as an idealistic country, but in reality it is far from what you have concieved. You are just living in your dreamland and you are to afraid to face reality. Please my brother unless people like you do not come out of their state of denial, you will not be able to improve things in your country... Jaswant Singh just tried to open your closed eyes which you are too afraid to open !!!

128

Re: Senior Indian politician expelled

Yes brother, we have been so far able to sideline these Hindu Indian Talibaans. I never claimed in my earlier post that we have achieved total peace, hormony and tolrance in our society. Yet we have done remarkably well in this field. As the sidelining of these talibaans are concerned, we were able to keep them out of power in two consecutive elections. This speaks for itself if U are comfortable in accepting the reality.

Not now brother, if u read my other posts related to these matters, I have frequently written that I m ashamed of whatever wrong have been done to muslims in India. Looks like U didnt care to read my boaring post carefully where I had clearly written that we feel threatened by growing religious fundamentalism in India. *Had these reigious fundamentalists really have any effect on Indian society, than muslims in India would have long back deprived of equal rights in Indian republic. Just like religious minorities doesnt have equal rights in Pakistan. Hope this time U understand me better. *

So neither I m confused, nor I m in state of denial. And I cant even think of making U Fool.

[QUOTE]
Sorry brother if my post gave you that impression. You have every right to express your opinion even if you feel something not exactly comfortable against Islam as being less tolerant...

[/QUOTE]

Nothing to say sorry for. But I seriously feel that muslims must realize that if someone doesnt subscribe to ur religious ideology that it doesnt mean that he hates U or he is ur enemy. We need to learn how to respect other's beliefs even if we have different set of beliefs from them.

[QUOTE]
Look what I meant from my post was that a certain Muslim hate mentality exist in you society (and I am not critisizing you personally)>>>

[/QUOTE]

Brother hatred is a part of human nature. He needs to hate someone. And I m sorry to say this, but religion has played a very vital part in inciting hate bacteria within humans. Why not have a look on Muslims itself? U can very well judge how much hatred is there between various sects of Muslims which results in sectarian organizations like Sipah E Sahaba or Lashker E Jangvi or whatever is it.

So when two entirely opposite religions like Hindus and Muslims will live together than its natural that someone will hate ther other group. Here U have singled out hindus hating muslims, do u feel that some muslims in India dont hate hindus? So I think that if U want to belittle our secularism by giving example of some hindus hating muslims than its totally irrrelevent.

[QUOTE]
If you deny this statement let me convey you what I think...you live in a state of denial !!!
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Only a foolish can deny any such statement. Fact of the matter is that human hate humans. And it happens in each and every society. If U want to thrust this upon India only than I will think that U are awfully biased.

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These religious extremist exist in your country and they do play an important rople in shaping the society, public opinion, media,a nd politics...and their infulence is growing in India !!q

[/QUOTE]

These religious extremists do exist in my country and in each and every country of the world. Even if the country is muslim's only country. Rest of ur statement is baseless and false. They have always been sidelined and will be sidelined always. InshaAllah.

[QUOTE]
Don't even try to invent some new Indain brand of secularism..and don't try to confuse the matter like some posters with extremist Islamist views try to confuse the matter with definitions. Secularism is just separation of church and government. An ideal situation in a secularist sountry should be that anyone seeking public office should keep his religious beliefs aside. No political party is allowed to form a party in the name of religion and persue poilitical career. In a secular society religion and ploitics don't go together.

Is it the case in India
[/QUOTE]
?

No we have INDIAN UNION MUSLIM LEGUE in India. They have been part of our governments. Inquire about Sahahuddin Owesi and GM Banatwala from ur Indian friends.

And we have BJP who are believed to be right wing hindu party.

But yes our government has never been influenced by religion in past and present.

[QUOTE]
I am sorry I do not see peace tv and the clown... a I am unable to comment anything being done by this magician/comedian who infact has nothing to do with Islam !!!

[/QUOTE]

LOL ya he is a good standing comadian for sure. And he is believed to be a very respectable figure of Islam and internationally admired by muslilms. I dont know why U dont like him anyways.

But the point I wanted to drive home was that even this CLOWN is able to mock the religion of majority hindus in India frequently. And still his channal in on air as usual and he has never been persecuted or hounded.

Do U see the difference this time???

[QUOTE]
Yes they are!!

They are often called Kantwas by majority population and are subjected to prejuidice behaviour and bullyed often by the government officials. I can give you one thousand examples. They are seen as suspect terrorist and general main stream population and the government does not trust muslms at all. If you are denying all this I think just out of your patriotism you are trying to fool us. There are people in this forum who do know the ground realities in India and are not as naive as you think generally are !!!
[/QUOTE]

LOL actually ur perception of muslims is of righteous and religious individuals who can do no wrong. But reality is just opposit my dear brother. Yes hindus call them Katwas (circumcised) but they too call us ****ALS( One who keep long choti) and Khichdikhors( Khichdi eaters), and KANDU (A vegetable) and as U can see some muslims call us Bhindians. LOL. U will be surprised to know that I call my friends katwas and they call me ****l, and kandu. So does that makes hindus or muslims opressed? I m surprised to hear ur judgement brother.

Muslims are not opressed brother, Muslims in India are mafia dons and they rule some cities of India by their violent behaviour. Ask about Syed Shabuddin, Mukhtar Ansari, Chota Shakeel, MMA Fatmi (who was minister in previous government) and hoards of another dons in Indian society who happens to be muslims. U cant show me one thousand examples of Indian officials bullying muslims but I can show U equal numbers of examples where hindus have been opressed and are being opressed by muslim strongmen. So better leave this opressed theory. I cant deny certain biases on both sides but U are hell bent to blame only hindus for every wrong doing and painting muslims as saints which is not the fact brother. stop the blame game and come to India to study the ground realities. I promise that U wont be misbehaved, U can have words of an Indian and hindu for it.

[QUOTE]
Your different statements are themselves self contradictory. First you claimed India has achieved peace, harmony and tolerance. Then you are ashamed of Modis and Varuns...then you are trying to fool us that these guys do not play a significant role in your politics.

[/QUOTE]

I said that we have almost achieved peach , hormony and tolrance. Indian society reflects this fact if U see with unbiased glasses. But if U dream of a utopian society in India, than yes we are not one. I dont know why presence of Modis and Varuns looks amazing to U in India. Why dont accept a simple fact that ppls like them are essential part of any society, its sad but true. And yes, they dont play a **SIGNIFICANT **role in Indian society otherwise they would have formed goverenment at the centre and wouldnt have been defeated. why cant swallow a simple truth???

[QUOTE]

You may not like these Varuns and Modis but saying they have no infulence is really to big a lie...also Hamid Gul and Bailullah Mehsud do not hold a public office (against Modi who is the CM of Gujrat)...but yet they have an infulence...Hamid Gul at one time was the chief of ISI...

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I dont say they have no influence, but they have a very little influence on a section of society. Modi is elected CM of Gujrat which forms less than 5% of Indian population. this is a truth. But he is well under check of Central government and cant make his evil desire possible is also a truth. Have U seen about a single anti muslsim riot after that shameful riot of 2002? Are muslims in Gujrat anything less free to practise their religion than rest of India? U can ask ur Indian friends about this.

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We in Pakistan now have come out of our state of denial...it's high time my sane Indian friends also do the same !!!

[/QUOTE]

So U admit that hindus in Jinnah's Pakistan have not been given equal rights like their muslim counterparts while muslims in Gandhi's India enjoy equal religious and political rights??? Ur Indian friends are not in state of denial brother, we do accept our short comings but plz dont expect us to accept what we have not done or not doing.

[QUOTE]

My dear brother...

Sometimes my Indian muslim friends change their names or don't tell their real names in public...

Are you trying to fool us or you are not in touch with the ground realities in India...

I think you are confused !!!

[/QUOTE]

LOL at ur bias brother, have U ever asked ur Indian muslim friend when they have to change their names in public? its only when they are passisng through some communally sensitive area which has hindu majority. Than ask them whether they know of hindus too who have to change their names while passing through cummunally sensitive Muslim majority areas.U will get ur answer. and only than U will realize that U are making a mountain of a mole. These things are unfortunate but these things do happen in such mixed societies. Why U are hell bent to demonize hindus only?

And perhaps U forgot that these same opressed muslims of India had once forced Indian government to roll back Supreme Court of India's decision when they felt that order has collided with their personal laws. U can ask ur Indian friend about that or simply google SHAH BANO CASE.

[QUOTE]

In your mind you have made India as an idealistic country, but in reality it is far from what you have concieved. You are just living in your dreamland and you are to afraid to face reality. Please my brother unless people like you do not come out of their state of denial, you will not be able to improve things in your country... Jaswant Singh just tried to open your closed eyes which you are too afraid to open !!!

[/QUOTE]

Brother the fact is that U want to hear what U like to hear. Jaswant Singh was a religious bigot form the begening of his political carreer. Reason is that whole India knows his party was an extremist party but he didnt. Today when he smells that his political carreer is ending with his party biting dust in elections, he need to earn some fast bucks. Overnight he becoms secularist and start praising Jinnah, and bashing Sardar Patel.

Anyways, India is not an idealistic country in my mind. But still it has achieved so much in terms of tolrance and religious harmony. That is the reason that inspite of so many religions, we are successful in coexisting together. Some exceptions are there, but they are mere exceptions.

Hope U understand brother.

Peace to U.

1971 Rapes: Bangladesh Cannot Hide History
129

Thats the point, dude ! Who draws the line between freedom of speech and attack on religious/political ideology ?

BJP expelling JS is purely their business. As for some states banning the books, it was done keeping the majority sentiments in mind and preventing a possible law & order situation. Its the same reason India condemned the Danish cartoons & US attack on Iraq.

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this guy has given so many examples of muslims coming into being thru different sources...may be he will tell us his personal source of connection with muslims...

still he cannot tell us how come people who adopted new religion became a party to the ruling class.

can he name a single islamic dynasty in india which was not indulged in mutual bloodshed???

ps, for his information islam does not recognize sufi movement.

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Again... Im not against the Danish cartoons... But there are limits to freedom of speech or expresion. But that ofcourse is a moot point. The intention behind the cartoons has to be understood, and whether this form of expression is anything more then inflamatory rhetoric.

Im against the book banning for the same reason im not against the Danish cartoon.
The BJP expelling the man is their business, but that doesnt mean it was right. It was actually quite stupid. And the pint of contention only arrises when Indians try to defend this.

And they can ban whatever they want, but the bottom line is that banning books really reflects poorly on Indians as a people. I mean think about what you are banning here. Your really banning facts, your banning independant thought and debate.
I mean this has all kinds of sad implications for India. If you dont see it I just feel pity for you.

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Now this bitter young Hindu, asks for debates. If you indulge him, he will accuse you of moaning and whining. If you ignore him he will start moaning and whinning himself.

I will indulge him momentarilly... People who converted become part of the ruling class because it was the Muslims who were in the ruling class.
Its the same reason Rajputs would give their women over to Muslim rulers in marriage, political expedieny.

And lol... What a stupid statemnt.

Islam is a religion. Muslims are the followers of Islam.

Sufism is a branch of Islam, along with multiple other schools of thought.

Some segments among Muslims dont recognize Sufism as being a prt of Islam, just as they dont recognize other schools of thought.
Many however do recognize Sufism as an integral part of Islam.

Islam itself doesnt espouse any particular school of thought, but is open to multiple interpretations, including the Sufi variety.

Get you terminology straight before deciding to debate issues ou know nothing of...

133

given is the basic problem of muslims..this psychosis has alwayse chased them and disturbed them.....why do christians in India not feel the same being a ruling class during the british rule...but it seems that christianity is more sane and sound.

rest of his reply...it is useless to talk because thousands of muslims define it in thousand manners, better they first decide whos islam is correct....islam never recignised sufism....ideological muslims say so....it was not my conclusion.

this chap has not answered...can he name a single islamic dynasty in india which was not indulged in mutual bloodshed?

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Facts ?? LOL...trust you to understand the difference between fact & fiction.

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Blah blah blah… :yawn:

Go cry someplace else you poor little victimized Hindu…

And by the way Hindu boy.. Despite all your “Universities” India is still one of the most illiterate countries in the World. The literacy in many Muslim countries is actually HIGHER then Hindu India…
And despite all you Universities, you still produce fewer Phd’s then many countries with less then a tenth of your population…
Thats not to mention the fact that a good number of those graduate are hardly even qualified to run a samosa stand…

136

When your cornered you start crying like a pussy...

Debate the facts, dont ban the book stupid. Simple logic, but logic is lost on Indians.

Musharraf's treason trial
Musharraf's treason trial
137

That's just about the only thing that needs to be said. Not sure what the yip yap's about.

138

Well genius, facts are that the book was only banned in Gujarat. And that too because it had less than flattering language about Patel (a gujarati hero).

It is selling like hotcakes in the rest of the country -

Publisher of Jaswant’s book says Guj govt’s ban boosting sales- Hindustan Times

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I never knew that muslims all over the world are more educated than Hindus, inspite of lack of universities and educational intitutions in their couries…may be he wants us to confuse with madrisas…no problem…

my question is still unanswered…if he can name a single muslim dynasty in india which was not indulged in mutual bloodshed…

a clue..he can answer that they were totally peaceful towards the hindu population and mutual bloodshed was just a sport.

this answer suits any of the post in any thred written by him…I can only admire him.

140

Dont be stupid. Ths whole debate was whether it should be banned anywhere.. In this case, Gujrat!

You idiotically supported the banning. Now your doing a complete about face…

Why dont you simply admit that bannign boks is wrong, either in Gujrat or any place else.
And im glad you Indians actually read accurate accounts of history,m and are atleast open minded. Attleast not all Indians are like you…