Re: Secularism vs Islam - Something to think about...
people who disagree with western philosophy. easern religions and modern financial and economic systems are "phobic" as well. What are you afraid of? Better options? :)
Re: Secularism vs Islam - Something to think about…
Secularism is a phenomenon developed in a natural course of history. In some countries some politicians may manipulate this system but it is still developing and being matured day by day. Secularism has a lot of scopes.
Islam is in a greater confusion. I think general people in Islamic states opt for a better system, but the overall surroundings do not let them go for a free thinking. When they believe that one particular system is actually invented by God, they are left in a total dilemma.
Ak why you always bring in homosexuality, is there any personal guilt? Homosexuality as well as haram abuse of women, is more common in hard core Islamic states in arab countries.
Re: Secularism vs Islam - Something to think about...
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It's a shame that many Muslims consider freedom of and from religion as western (satanic) ideals. It will only delay the Reformation and Enlightenment within Islam.
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there is no such thing as freedom from religion anywhere in the world. Religious concepts are there and always have been but the practise may be difference. Freedom of religious practise is a matter of degrees. You trying to tell me that the western world is rid of Judeo-Christian values despite the separation of state and church, (even though something as silly as the Charles Camilla marriage has got the Anglican Church in a tizzy and back to looking at 16th century legal documents)? Or that the Israeli government which is as secular as they come is not the result of a bilblical or religious ideas, established on recognising the greatness of Judaisam to the exclusion and above all others?
There is a need for reformation and enlightenment in Islam but it will not be the way you expect it to be with the separation of state and church. In fact it will be the opposite.
Re: Secularism vs Islam - Something to think about...
Yes, freedom of religion is a matter of degrees in all societies. No one is suggesting religion be taken out of socieity. But the degree to which Muslim societies, culture and government are dominated by religion resembles pre-Reformation/Enlightenment Chrisitian societies. Without separation of state and religion, Muslim sociieties will be left further behind and be on the outside looking in.
BTW, if it's silly to look back at 16th century Anglican documents to determine legality of royal marriage, how silly is it to look at 7th century literature to determine which parts of your body to shave?
Re: Secularism vs Islam - Something to think about...
seminole i wasn't suggesting that it was silly to refer to religio-legal documents. I was talking about the silliness of the uproar over the charles & cam wedding. My point was that marriage, especially a civil contract like they are gonna have has, in true secular form nothing to do with the church. Yet despite this apparent separation of church and state, you have to refer to such documents because of what is essentially a ceremonial title of 'Defender of the faith', in this case being the anglican faith, for when and if Charles may become King. Thats just one example of the absurdity of secularism, the church and the state. But the point remains that secularism isn't the all inclusive all faiths are equal mantra that some people wrongly attribute to it.
In comparison to other societies and religions, Muslim societies are in, in my view, the very early stages of growth. Any reformation or change will not and cannot be imposed from outsiders and neither will short term fix-it solutions work. Whatever it will be, I am sure it will be different but it will be a natural progression. I could go in depth but I think this will be enough for now.
Re: Secularism vs Islam - Something to think about...
The "very early stages of growth" after 1400 years of expansion and decline? Why is it in such early stages? Possibly because it has not gone through the very reformation that you say is not necessary. It took approximately 1400 years for Christianity to go through modernization and the West has led the world ever since.
No one is suggesting outsiders impose reformation - it does have to come from within. But history shows that successful societies and religous governments are oxymorons.
Re: Secularism vs Islam - Something to think about…
In your opinion what would a reformation or enlightenment within Islam be?
Re: Secularism vs Islam - Something to think about...
Secularization, respect for other faiths, self questioning and self-criticism will lead to rationalization and the realization that religion is a personal relationship between the individual and their God.
This would take care of the patriarchal power structure, the imposition of Arab culture as the basis of the Quran in today's world, the obsession with Israel, the acknowledgement that Islam is not the world power it was in medieval times, religion is about spirituality, not imposition of beliefs and that secularlism, freedom and democracy are necessary for everyone to live in peace and in the way they see fit with their religion.
Re: Secularism vs Islam - Something to think about…
Hmmm. How come you think Muslims are the ones who need to question themselves or criticize their actions? Is this not the case for every single individual on the face of this earth? I believe that religion is between a person and God, yet I also believe that religion is between a person and everything and everyone else too. It is not possible to live among other people and think that what we believe religion- wise does not affect the rest. One has a right to believe what he/she wants, but one has an obligation to other people, in order to live amongst them, to explain and understand. If religion was just between a person and God, there would be no need to have a term for it, there would be no need to ever discuss it in open, it would be like a secret that nobody else knows except the person and his Lord. But we all know that the world does not work that way…one cant have religion as a cherished secret , its just not possible.
Arab culture? This is about the most widely believed and accepted image of Islam. It keeps coming out again and again. But truly this is not the case? Muslims come in all shapes and sizes, from all sorts of backgrounds. And I for one am not too keen about the Arab culture. Culture is completely different from religion. Arabs do not = Islam.
Obsession with Israel ? Again thats Palestine and Isreal. Not all Muslims are Palestinians or Arabs.
Islam is not about world power. In fact Islam does not believe in power - that is materialistic power. The power of a Muslim, is to be close to his Lord, if Allah is pleased, that is power to a Muslim.
Now I know some people like to live in their dreamlands. How Muslims will take over , etc. People are free to believe as they like. But lets not forget that we can say the same for Americans, how a lot of silly people believe in world power. All these stigmas attached to Islam are irritating. There is no such thing. Land, wealth , it all dies as do people. In the end the only power is ones faith and yes ones religion.
Re: Secularism vs Islam - Something to think about…
Seminole used the word imposition of religion…I don’t think he/she has an issue with explaining it to others. That comes under democracy and diversity.
Re: Secularism vs Islam - Something to think about...
I know.
I was referring to the "religion is between a person and God". I agreed but also added my view to it.
Re: Secularism vs Islam - Something to think about...
After the break up of the ottoman empire, and a little while during it, Muslim societies had to deal with imperialism, coloniasm, during the early 20th century it was nationalism and socialism and at the dawn of 21st century it is capitalism and democracy, each and every one a foreign concept. I think most people would like to see a 'home-grown' initiative. Or at the very least to try to implement its own version of foreign concepts such as democracy. A bit like Mecca Cola instead of Coca Cola.
Anyway here's one academic view on change in Islam.
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Yet Islam, which acknowledges Judaism and Christianity as its forerunners in a single religious tradition of revelation-based monotheism, also preaches equality, justice, and human dignity--ideals that played a role in developments as diverse as the Christian Reformation of the sixteenth century, the American and French revolutions of the eighteenth century, and even the "liberation theology" of the twentieth century. Islam is not lacking in tenets and practices that are compatible with pluralism. Among these are the traditions of ijtihad (interpretation), ijma (consensus), and shura (consultation).
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The stirrings of reform within Islam today should not be compared too closely with the Christian Reformation of almost five hundred years ago. The historical and institutional differences between the two faiths are vast.
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Christianity's Reformation took at least two centuries to work itself out. The Islamic Reformation is probably only somewhere in early midcourse. And the two movements offer only the roughest of parallels. The Christian Reformation, for example, was launched in reaction to the papacy and specific practices of the Catholic Church. In contrast, Islam has no central authority; even the chief ayatollah in the Islamic Republic of Iran is the supreme religious authority in one country only.
But the motives and goals of both reformations are similar. The Islamic reformers want to strip the faith of corrupt, irrelevant, or unjust practices that have been tacked on over the centuries. They are looking to make the faith relevant to changing times and conditions. They want to make the faith more accessible to the faithful, so that believers utilize the faith rather than have it used against them. *And they want to draw on Islam as both a justification and a tool for political, social, and economic empowerment. *
Islam and Liberal Democracy, Journal of Democracy [96]
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and there you have it. secularism is bull**** but we should give democracy a go and add our own flavour to it.
Re: Secularism vs Islam - Something to think about...
and i think i'll leave it at that.
Re: Secularism vs Islam - Something to think about…
I did not mean to imply that only Muslims must do this. Only that so little of it goes on in Muslim world without someone being labelled infidel or God forbid a death threat be issued.
Why do you need validation and everyone to agree with you to explore your own spirituality? But I’m not saying to abolish organized religion, only to leave it out of running society’s affairs. People of like minds should meet and be part of the same faith if that is what they want. It doesn’t mean to keep it in the closet, but you, the local mullah or the Grand Ayatollah do not have an obligation to explain your version to the rest of society.
In Islam, culture and religion are intertwined. Not a monolithic culture, but many of Arab traits carry through the followers of Islam today. I suppose because of the strict literal translation of the Quran and the idolization of the first Muslims.
No they aren’t, but they are obsessed nonetheless. Please vist WA.
You are arguing against yourself. I am the one who said religion is between a man and his God. Islam spread rapidly because the first Muslims wanted to rule the world with their newfound righteousness. You and others are advocating Islam to have power over all of society. Many here want Khilafah to make a comeback. Many Muslims resesnt that the infidel West is the great power of today, can you honesty refute that? It has a lot to do with power.
Re: Secularism vs Islam - Something to think about...
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Many Muslims resesnt that the infidel West are the great power of today, can you honesty refute that? It has a lot to do with power.
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No. we couldnt careless. When secular people use thier 'advanced' system to use and abuse, thats when we start caring, but not in a nice way.
Re: Secularism vs Islam - Something to think about...
I never said it was in a nice way. But I still think many Muslims resent the position of power of the West.
Re: Secularism vs Islam - Something to think about…
Not really. Thats basically the impression most people tend to have. Not all Muslims think that way, we can be very open minded - some of us. I think Muslims are more sensitive, because for some reason they are more misunderstood, but I dont have the time to get into the whole psychology of it. (have a class in a few mins)
I dont need anyone to agree with me. But I think it would be a lot easier for everyone if they understood one another. Trust me most negative aspects arise from silly misunderstandings. Religion cannot always be left out of society’s affairs. Take the hijab ban in France for example. There are some things that must mingle with society’s affairs, and religion is a major one. And again I hate the sarcastic use of the local mullah and so forth. Nobody is being forced to do anything. But the reason I said obligation is because when you’re being hated out of ignorace, sometimes perhaps it would be best to educate. By obligation I meant if you are going to have a faith , stick by it, but if questions arise, its your duty to stand up and answer to them.We live amongst other people, sometimes explanations are a must.
No they are not. This is the misconception of many people, including some Muslims themselves.
Perhaps the US foreign policy and US interests have something to do with it.
I am not advocating that Islam have power over all of society. Im saying that my faith should be a part of my society. After all isnt that what its all about, freedom? As for the West, and so far what I have seen the west do, lets just say I dont have the energy to list all that down. But since you seem to be fmailiar with politics and whats going on - day to day basis- Im sure you know a lot more than I would about the West vs Muslims.
Time to head to the lecture.
Re: Secularism vs Islam - Something to think about…
i think thats a bit too simplistic, even for you.
Re: Secularism vs Islam - Something to think about...
I suppose I could go into the complexities and complications of that presumption, but since you simplistically dismiss secularism as a Christian ideology, you might not understand it.
Re: Secularism vs Islam - Something to think about…
No actually my first example was xstainaity and devil worship you can bring any topic you like, drugs, crime, education, personal beleifs and secualrism fails one every single one. As for your experience of arab homosexuality i would’nt know and i am not interested in your personal habits.