Re: Secularism Is Pakistan’s Way Out to End Sectarian Violence
Protection from whom?
Re: Secularism Is Pakistan’s Way Out to End Sectarian Violence
exactly…why riots happened in india?
because india is not a secular state..it claims to be a secular state but it is not in a true fashion. if it was a secular state , we would have never seen gujrat riots. gujrat riots and many other riots happened in idnia because some religious fundo parties want india to become a hindu state…
and are you kidding me my brother? 911 or 711 or boston bombings happened because of muslim religious terrorist organizations who are spreading their hate preachings and sending fundamentalist into every country. nothing to do with secularism.
it is shameful that we muslims enjoy secularism benefits in europe and USA and yet badmouth them as well.
Re: Secularism Is Pakistan’s Way Out to End Sectarian Violence
you tell me…and why it matters. the point is that they had to pay jazya for muslim govts to protect them (from majoirty which was muslims)
am i wrong that non muslims used to pay jazya to muslim govts?
Re: Secularism Is Pakistan’s Way Out to End Sectarian Violence
by calling other mentally challanged will not solve the problem either meray bhai
Re: Secularism Is Pakistan’s Way Out to End Sectarian Violence
That is exactly I am saying too. At least 7/7 and Boston happened by the lawful permanent residents of that country. Its the mindset of people that needs to be changed, because even with secularism, religious intolerance could seep in from outside.
Re: Secularism Is Pakistan’s Way Out to End Sectarian Violence
No you are right about Jazya. It is the law of Islam. Unfortunately not every law of Islam is human friendly. That is what I was referring to. But that is another debate. Kabhi phir sahi.
Re: Secularism Is Pakistan’s Way Out to End Sectarian Violence
with due respect, we cannot call few people’s actions representative of entire nation. boston bombing was done by 2 brothers who by the way got migrated from central asia few years ago. 911 was done by saudis. 711 was done by local pakistani brits but they were all influenced deeply by fundamentalist islamic religious propaganda
so we cannot blame American or brit citizens for having a flawed mindset. yes there are religous bigots there as well but their % is much much smaller than our countries and in general socities are far more tolerant and open and respectful thx to their secular system.
chalo yaar, baqi pher sahi,..i have to do breakfast as well.
Re: Secularism Is Pakistan’s Way Out to End Sectarian Violence
:k: will do bro
Re: Secularism Is Pakistan’s Way Out to End Sectarian Violence
We all seem to have a solution to the crises that occur around the clock, but unfortunately our solutions are a thousand per minute, just as there are incident in the same frequency.
Pushing secularism on a country where a majority identify themselves with anti-secular practices will be akin to enslavement because that’s the other extreme. Captain1 and others have touched on this already, and I feel that is the right course of action to take. People need to be educated. The institutions, especially the religious institutions need to become regulated with a proper curriculum that teaches religious, as well as other world skills that a graduate may be able to apply and become employed.
Governments of the current, and past have been culprits in this regard unfortunately, because it is the responsibility of the administration to ensure that no citizen goes hungry, that graduates get employment within reasonable times, and that businesses are not hassled or asked for kickbacks or bribes. When businesses can conduct themselves without needing to worry about a spectrum of pockets they need to line from the local patrolman to the commissioner, then they will use that money to grow and employ more local talent. How many people do you all personally know who either lost their investment, were threatened with the help of officials, or were warned not to invest there because of the factors that would have drained them fiscally within a short time? That’s a fear that keeps investments away from ex-pats and from others who see potential in an economy like Pakistan.
If the educational institutions around the world can have partnership with corporations for internships, and then selection of rightful candidates upon completion of internships, then why not Pakistan?
It can’t be a single solution that will wipe the slate clean. There has to be a multi-pronged effort in all areas, from top to bottom. Effects of efficiency trickle down. There’s a great need to tackle corruption, formulate and apply reform even if that means making a full seal against all external influences (brother countries or not), and once the pieces are all in place, then keep to the system and deal strictly with anyone that tries to circumvent it. In my personal opinion, it has been this mish-mash of religious, then non-religious, then semi-religious, then military rule that have resulted in the inconsistency of mindsets. Developing a mindset is a generational thing, without there being a pattern of like-minded consecutive leadership in charge of running national affairs, people will keep needing to adopt to the new trend and mindsets.
It may take educating, and reform of the current generation for Pakistan to see results of it in the coming generation. Unfortunately, we all like instant results from public to the leaders, but the reality is that it is steady and persistent progress that yields any results. Interruptions do not.
None of this is possible without first the will of Allah (s.w.t.), and secondly without the people wanting to correct their ways.
If you enforce secular laws, Pakistanis will use their creative energies and game that system within days, if not months. Treating the symptoms is not enough, treat the cause.
And of course Allah knows best all of our affairs.
Re: Secularism Is Pakistan’s Way Out to End Sectarian Violence
Well if your telling us that the sort of thing that happened on that bus is symptomatic of chronic LACK of religion.. Well I gotta tell ya, that’s perplexing to say the least. I think the people who commit themselves to such zealous and bigoted actions will tell you that they ARE following their religion in letter and spirit…
This Muslim extremism in Pakistani society seems to correlate with increasing religiosity in the society as a whole, as encouraged and facilitated by the govt… You can trace how its gotten more and more conservative and militant over the years with each respective govt passing legislation to appease and court the religious right. From banning of Alcohol, to the Anti-Ahmadi laws etc. Its only now that the govt has realized how deep of a hole they have dug for themselves.
Now i agree that people should approach faith with the right intention, your “Neeath” should be pure. However, i have yet to meet someone who has done evil, but with the intent of doing evil. Often, its the best intentioned that do the most harm. In the case of religion, your really playing with fire. People have their own interpretations. Its naive to believe that people will choose the right path, because in the realm of faith, all interpretations being more or less equal, there is no single path.
This is not like a queue. When your out of the queue, everyone knows it. But when your not in line with populist understanding of religion, then your either a heretic to those in-line, or your the one person who has it right…
Re: Secularism Is Pakistan’s Way Out to End Sectarian Violence
When you say education, you have to emphasize that its an education which encourages open mindedness and introspection. Its not education itself, but rather the quality of education one receives. Some of the most bigoted and hateful people are also the most educated.
Re: Secularism Is Pakistan’s Way Out to End Sectarian Violence
Peace Med911
The problem I see here is that you are being unfair on religious people and on religion in general. You are asking the zealots and bigots about whether they are correct and then you agree with them when they say yes. But an impartial and unbiased study will reveal that such people have low intelligence, low contribution to society and low levels of religious knowledge and have basic to mediocre understandings even of the areas in the religion that are about ritual matters like purity, worship, etc …
We end up in a society rewards professionals and ridicules the clergy then the better minds through the years will choose professions and the clergy will become occupied with the lesser minds. And in the case of Pakistan religious leadership is a good way for getting political power … Such people are about politics and money not about religion. You can see that right?
Re: Secularism Is Pakistan’s Way Out to End Sectarian Violence
secularism <> lack of religion
Re: Secularism Is Pakistan’s Way Out to End Sectarian Violence
lmao.
You people sitting outside have no idea what the perception of pakistani commonfolk is and how effective this ‘secularism’ mantra is going to be 
Just regurgitating whatever you read n stuff.
You start preaching secularism - you play into the hands of molvies and cause further increase in extremism.
but why should i say anything here. I live in paksitan. you folks living outside know lot more 
Re: Secularism Is Pakistan’s Way Out to End Sectarian Violence
You should share your views because they add value to the discussion, and give an insight from the perspective of someone present in the country.
Re: Secularism Is Pakistan’s Way Out to End Sectarian Violence
They were allowed to rule with their own laws as much as was possible and non Muslims weren’t required to fight in case of a war. I guess that another aspect would be showing Muslim control of their lands.
Re: Secularism Is Pakistan’s Way Out to End Sectarian Violence
jazya is very much like a federal tax. Muslims pay zakat n ushr while non muslims pay jazya.
Re: Secularism Is Pakistan’s Way Out to End Sectarian Violence
Im sure they are terrible people and aren’t all that bright. Yes money and politics is what its about. But they gain their power through exploitation of religion, and simple minded sentiments of the religious masses. More reason then to separate the state from religion. Im sure they will find other sentiment to exploit, but religion more then anything else, is a very dangerous thing to wield and can often explode (in the case of Pak quite literally) in the face of those that exploit it. So now we return to the issue at hand.
Does the govt help or enable such elements within a given society ? Does the govt meddling in religious matters create an environment in which such lowly individuals find space to commit acts of barbarity ? I believe, and im sure most will agree, that it does.
For example, the govt endorsed anti-Ahmadi laws create space in which hate speech is tolerated against that community. And when such enabling laws exist, then committing violence against that community (by people who are off low intellect and make zero contribution to society as a whole) is acceptable on some level because the govt has endorsed the perception that they are non-muslim.
So the point here is, should the govt be seen as being impartial in matters of Faith, and hence be in essence secular.. Or should it side with one group and endorse one religion at the expense of millions of citizens who do not adhere to that faith ?
I think its about time we jettison this notion of the “Islamic State” and approach the role of Islam, the role of the citizen and his govt with some nuance. I think the problem here is that people are trying to adhere to these antiquated notions which do not apply today. Today, we promote the equality of all citizens above all else. The Non-Muslims are not subjects of the Muslim majority or any other majority.
Non Muslim citizens dont gain their legitimacy through the govt, its the govt that gains legitimacy through them and society as whole. Composed of equal citizens regardless of faith (or anything else).
This environment of inequality creates divisions, it creates enmity, and ultimately results in violence as we tragically see all to often…
Re: Secularism Is Pakistan’s Way Out to End Sectarian Violence
No one is so naive as to expect the common Pakistanis to be so enlightened. These discussions are academic, they arent a manifesto.
Many of the people who dont live in Pakistan are far more aware of the nature of Pakistan then you. They grew up and spent most of their life there. Some of hem have an intimate understanding of Pakistan. I know people who were so involved with the intricacies of Pakistani life that they could school you for hours.
A fish out of water doesn’t forget how to swim. But then, a fish in water doesn’t know much beyond the ocean.
Re: Secularism Is Pakistan’s Way Out to End Sectarian Violence
This client status of Non-Muslims is no longer acceptable. Even if they are receiving the best treatment, remain completely and utterly unmolested and even thrive, there is still the distinction. There is no longer a place for such distinctions…