Secularism Is Pakistan's Way Out to End Sectarian Violence

[NyFella]

Re: Secularism Is Pakistan’s Way Out to End Sectarian Violence

There needs to be a major repeal of those draconian hudood ordinance laws placed decades ago that have given extremist groups a free hand and as a result many innocent minorities lives have been lynched due to alleged blasphemy in the name of religion for the wrong reasons.

The gov’t needs to recognize this and bring much needed reforms and engage with public from both sides of isle in bringing about changing of mindsets over the long-run and adapting to modern times, keeping in mind the Islamic values.

Yet we often see in our elected ministers it’s more about self before country. National interests are sidelined at the expense of personal wealth and demeaning of political opponents, which has destroyed the system and prevented any progress from taking place in the socio-economic welfare of the average citizens.

[psyah]

Re: Secularism Is Pakistan’s Way Out to End Sectarian Violence

@Med911

Im sure they are terrible people and aren’t all that bright. Yes money and politics is what its about. But they gain their power through exploitation of religion, and simple minded sentiments of the religious masses. More reason then to separate the state from religion. Im sure they will find other sentiment to exploit, but religion more then anything else, is a very dangerous thing to wield and can often explode (in the case of Pak quite literally) in the face of those that exploit it. So now we return to the issue at hand.

Does the govt help or enable such elements within a given society ? Does the govt meddling in religious matters create an environment in which such lowly individuals find space to commit acts of barbarity ? I believe, and im sure most will agree, that it does.

For example, the govt endorsed anti-Ahmadi laws create space in which hate speech is tolerated against that community. And when such enabling laws exist, then committing violence against that community (by people who are off low intellect and make zero contribution to society as a whole) is acceptable on some level because the govt has endorsed the perception that they are non-muslim.

So the point here is, should the govt be seen as being impartial in matters of Faith, and hence be in essence secular.. Or should it side with one group and endorse one religion at the expense of millions of citizens who do not adhere to that faith ?

I think its about time we jettison this notion of the “Islamic State” and approach the role of Islam, the role of the citizen and his govt with some nuance. I think the problem here is that people are trying to adhere to these antiquated notions which do not apply today. Today, we promote the equality of all citizens above all else. The Non-Muslims are not subjects of the Muslim majority or any other majority.

Non Muslim citizens dont gain their legitimacy through the govt, its the govt that gains legitimacy through them and society as whole. Composed of equal citizens regardless of faith (or anything else).

This environment of inequality creates divisions, it creates enmity, and ultimately results in violence as we tragically see all to often…

I was already in agreement that state and religion should be separate in today’s climate - what I am against is the idea that religious values are detrimental to people. Rather the lack of religious values creates a situation where people turn religion into a vehicle for power. More religious education, less filth in the media, whilst having secular control is what I am saying here …

[Med911]

Re: Secularism Is Pakistan’s Way Out to End Sectarian Violence

@psyah

I was already in agreement that state and religion should be separate in today’s climate - what I am against is the idea that religious values are detrimental to people. Rather the lack of religious values creates a situation where people turn religion into a vehicle for power. More religious education, less filth in the media, whilst having secular control is what I am saying here …

More religious education? How many more madrassas do people need ?!? And who’s version of Islam should we be teaching ?

Filth in media is relative.. Rest of it we are in agreement.

[psyah]

Re: Secularism Is Pakistan’s Way Out to End Sectarian Violence

@Med911

More religious education? How many more madrassas do people need ?!? And who’s version of Islam should we be teaching ?

Filth in media is relative.. Rest of it we are in agreement.

We don’t need anymore madrassas - just better ones. Ones that will teach character and depth of understanding … ones that are well funded and do not have political motives. Version of Islam here is less important than having a solid philosophy and a robust system of controlling applicants and strong guidelines for teachers and open and probing audit schemes over taught methods with risk analysis. We need institutions that attract better minds and not places that are meant for fallouts. They cannot be cheap places and they cannot have low entry requirements. They cannot have non-academic teaching staff - i.e. they should be scholars with accreditations and ijazas.

Values to be taught - Helping society without a desire to be honoured or rewarded by it. This cannot be taught in a classroom but must be practiced in real life. Protecting people while placing oneself at risk. Charity and Sacrifice and Critical Thinking. Principle to Preserve Life. Being able to challenge, but knowing when to avoid argumentation. These are universals that need no particular orientation of religion let alone any brand of Islam. These are values that religious people should be holding on to.

[Moonstar201]

Re: Secularism Is Pakistan’s Way Out to End Sectarian Violence

IMHO i m not in favour of secularism . Our madrasah and the teacher their need to be better as mentioned above by other poster. Honestly speacking , when i see the madrasah students around me , i dont have much hope. They are less tolerant , more egoistic. No respect for elders. The same is increasing day by day.. I remember the madrasah where used to go for Quran , the nature of childern staying in madrsah is waay too violent than the visiting ones.
We are trained for respect and behaviour by our parents , when these students are in isolated world where they daily meet with molvi sahb doing daily thukai with a long dunda ??? how they will learn to respect .
These madresah are way too different than mudresah of yesteryears ..

[Doppleganger]

Re: Secularism Is Pakistan’s Way Out to End Sectarian Violence

You won’t be able to get around the sect issue. In fact, there are differences here that lead Isis or Taliban following a particular strain of thought.

[Med911]

Re: Secularism Is Pakistan’s Way Out to End Sectarian Violence

@psyah

We don’t need anymore madrassas - just better ones. Ones that will teach character and depth of understanding … ones that are well funded and do not have political motives. Version of Islam here is less important than having a solid philosophy and a robust system of controlling applicants and strong guidelines for teachers and open and probing audit schemes over taught methods with risk analysis. We need institutions that attract better minds and not places that are meant for fallouts. They cannot be cheap places and they cannot have low entry requirements. They cannot have non-academic teaching staff - i.e. they should be scholars with accreditations and ijazas.

Values to be taught - Helping society without a desire to be honoured or rewarded by it. This cannot be taught in a classroom but must be practiced in real life. Protecting people while placing oneself at risk. Charity and Sacrifice and Critical Thinking. Principle to Preserve Life. Being able to challenge, but knowing when to avoid argumentation. These are universals that need no particular orientation of religion let alone any brand of Islam. These are values that religious people should be holding on to.

Well good luck with that than…

The problem with the religious mindset is strict adherence (by any means) to certain conservative ethos. Its the kind of mentality that discourages flexibility. So for example, will this 'proper" religious education allow a more visible presence of women in society ? Will they allow groups like the Ahmadi to practice their religion without interference and with full freedom (meaning being able to give the azaan, to use Islamic text on their masjids etc), will they allow people to live their lives as they wish (Celebrating Valentines day for example). There are a lot of things that the religious Muslim mind will not tolerate. How to get around that problem?

[Med911]

Re: Secularism Is Pakistan’s Way Out to End Sectarian Violence

@Moonstar201

IMHO i m not in favour of secularism . Our madrasah and the teacher their need to be better as mentioned above by other poster. Honestly speacking , when i see the madrasah students around me , i dont have much hope. They are less tolerant , more egoistic. No respect for elders. The same is increasing day by day.. I remember the madrasah where used to go for Quran , the nature of childern staying in madrsah is waay too violent than the visiting ones.
We are trained for respect and behaviour by our parents , when these students are in isolated world where they daily meet with molvi sahb doing daily thukai with a long dunda ??? how they will learn to respect .
These madresah are way too different than mudresah of yesteryears ..

You can be in favor of improving ones values (through religion or whichever means necessary) and be supportive of Govt not being involved in religion or supporting one religion over another, which is what secularism essentially means.

[Med911]

Re: Secularism Is Pakistan’s Way Out to End Sectarian Violence

@Doppleganger

You won’t be able to get around the sect issue. In fact, there are differences here that lead Isis or Taliban following a particular strain of thought.

Exactly… When people hate a group enough to murder them en masse, convincing them that they are following the wrong ideology seems an uphill task.

Brother Psyah’s ideal seems great in theory, but in practice it seems nearly impossible.

The kind of change he advocates for needs an Islamic reformation on a global basis, not just in Pakistan. And it will take generations of trial and error.

[psyah]

Re: Secularism Is Pakistan’s Way Out to End Sectarian Violence

@Med911

Well good luck with that than…

The problem with the religious mindset is strict adherence (by any means) to certain conservative ethos. Its the kind of mentality that discourages flexibility. So for example, will this 'proper" religious education allow a more visible presence of women in society ? Will they allow groups like the Ahmadi to practice their religion without interference and with full freedom (meaning being able to give the azaan, to use Islamic text on their masjids etc), will they allow people to live their lives as they wish (Celebrating Valentines day for example). There are a lot of things that the religious Muslim mind will not tolerate. How to get around that problem?

Those are statecraft issues and need to be managed by the state … The religious institutes will have to be in a different capacity having said all that not all individuals will be persuaded to side with the government’s policies. Often laws are put in place to get more votes … Not because they think it’s the right thing to do.

[Guppshupper]

Re: Secularism Is Pakistan’s Way Out to End Sectarian Violence

@Med911

No one is so naive as to expect the common Pakistanis to be so enlightened. These discussions are academic, they arent a manifesto.

What purpose does an academic discussion serve if it has no real world relevance??

Many of the people who dont live in Pakistan are far more aware of the nature of Pakistan then you. They grew up and spent most of their life there. Some of hem have an intimate understanding of Pakistan. I know people who were so involved with the intricacies of Pakistani life that they could school you for hours.

LMAO - so just with a couple of posts you know exactly how much i know about Pakistan? Or is it your view that anyone living in Pakistan automatically has less knowledge than those sitting outside? Which one is it?

Just a question, how long ago you (or your friend who could school me) moved from Pakistan to west? Just curious.

A fish out of water doesn’t forget how to swim. But then, a fish in water doesn’t know much beyond the ocean.

Hmm. I know one thing only - a fish out of water is DEAD.

.

[Captain1]

Re: Secularism Is Pakistan’s Way Out to End Sectarian Violence

@phoenixdesi

indirectly but you just supported secularism captain jee…

true secularism is close to islam… islam never bothered with anyone’s personal business. umar refused to pray in a church fearing people will convert all churches into mosques.

the only issue is that islam wants to implement sharia laws in a society and want minorities to pay extra jazya for their protection. secular society will have same law for everyone and same oppts and same protection for everyone with no extra cost

I don’t know which country you are talking about but Pakistan is not even half close to Islamic country so not sure where the talk of “jazya” pops in from, I am talking about fixing Pakistan. Just ban the hate speech and enforce the damn law and eat the fruits.

[Med911]

Re: Secularism Is Pakistan’s Way Out to End Sectarian Violence

@Guppshupper

.

1. Why do you bother to come to this forum? Did you expect anything you say or read here will have any impact on ANYTHING anywhere in the world ? Go do something productive with your life… Like your homework perhaps.

2. No. I didnt bother to read a “couple” of your posts as I only needed one inane post to gauge your overall state of mind.
   Im saying that living outside of Pakistan doesnt make you less knowledgeable. It was stupid of you to assume so. My view is both that you know very little, and that people outside know more then you…

3. Your a dead fish floating in the water.

[kchughtai]

Re: Secularism Is Pakistan’s Way Out to End Sectarian Violence

It is not the religious values that are detrimental, it is the people who are holding the reigns of religion in Pakistan. they and their ideals, no matter how insane, cannot be questioned. They present their ugly views coated or amalgamated with different aspects of religion. No one not even government dared to touch them. They are untouchables despite the fact that they profess hatred and division. These kings need to be dethroned somehow before we even dream of Pakistan where diverse people may co-exist.

[kchughtai]

Re: Secularism Is Pakistan’s Way Out to End Sectarian Violence

Mindsets can be changed thru a long process and the key is improving system of education wrt both content and teachers

[Moonstar201]

Re: Secularism Is Pakistan’s Way Out to End Sectarian Violence

@kchughtai

Mindsets can be changed thru a long process and the key is improving system of education wrt both content and teachers

such understanding of Islam is actually being imported N funded by outside forces. we need committed govt. to eliminate these factors.

[kchughtai]

Re: Secularism Is Pakistan’s Way Out to End Sectarian Violence

^ the day we start taking responsibility of our own actions and stop finding “baironi haath” in each and every freaking thing , we will get ourselves on the right track

[jasos]

Re: Secularism Is Pakistan’s Way Out to End Sectarian Violence

bharat bhi secular mulak hey shayd :cobra:

[jasos]

Re: Secularism Is Pakistan’s Way Out to End Sectarian Violence

@S_Punk

Education is the only way out.

is forum per parhlay likhon key jahilana guftagu sun ker me ko khushi hoti hey kah main parha likha nahin hon

#un_parh_tameez_dar](http://www.paklinks.com/gs/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=un_parh_tameez_dar)

[Captain1]

Re: Secularism Is Pakistan’s Way Out to End Sectarian Violence

@jasos

bharat bhi secular mulak hey shayd :cobra:

naam nihaad secularism , jaisay Pakistan naam nihaad “Islami”