Re: Secular Muslim countries are becoming economic progress models
Correct and did that lead to economic progress right away? Nope. The reason the European nations were economically vibrant was due to colonialism and the slave trade. The reason why in the past 60 years the US has dominated the economic sphere of the world again is not linked to secularism, but being one of the sole countries not affected by world war 2.
What nonsense.
The reason the Europeans could conquer so much of the world and engage in Slavery to the extent they did was because they were progressive economically, and not tied down to the Church.
Americas economic progress started well before World War 2.
All these countries progressed despite being secular.
Re: Secular Muslim countries are becoming economic progress models
You do realize that Christian Missionaries were an active aspect of colonialism right? Also your last sentence should read: All these countries progressed due to being secular. Not despite being secular. Because that is what I would say.
Re: Secular Muslim countries are becoming economic progress models
You do realize that Christian Missionaries were an active aspect of colonialism right? Also your last sentence should read: All these countries progressed due to being secular. Not despite being secular. Because that is what I would say.
Yeah, but Missionaries have always been active, even to this day. That has nothing to do with anything. Missionaries work regardless of whether they are sanctioned by their respective Govts or not.
I agree, these countries did progress due to being secular. As could Pakistan, if it got rid of the pretense to religion that hangs around its neck like an anchor.
Re: Secular Muslim countries are becoming economic progress models
Well from a pure political and economic point of view secular countries do out compete religious based systems. However, Secularism is not the answer to all problems.
Re: Secular Muslim countries are becoming economic progress models
If you do agree these countries prospered due to their secular nature then go edit your post. Eh...do whatever you want.
It has nothing to do with Colonialism when the Governments of France and Portugal considered forced conversion an official part of their colonialist policy? I disgress. The point is simple there is no correlation between being secular and being progressively economically.
Re: Secular Muslim countries are becoming economic progress models
get your facts right MAlaysia is not a secular country just look at logos of their Armed Forces and there Prime Minister was asked one day that Malsaysyia a secular country and he got furious with that reporter and told him that Malaysia is a Muslim country and in many provinces of Indonesia are completely ruled by the laws of Shariah and even in these days people in goverment of Turkey are not considere secular by most of their people
Re: Secular Muslim countries are becoming economic progress models
If you do agree these countries prospered due to their secular nature then go edit your post. Eh...do whatever you want.
It has nothing to do with Colonialism when the Governments of France and Portugal considered forced conversion an official part of their colonialist policy? I disgress. The point is simple there is no correlation between being secular and being progressively economically.
Archangel mera bhai. I think you need to work on your English literacy to figure out what I wrote up there.
As far as Europe is concerned, the hold that the Church had over the European states had weakened well before colonialism. The colonial govts may still have practiced some degree of institutionalized relgion, but there was always a move towards secularism.
Like I said before, Secularism lays the ground work for Social order, and economic progress only comes through Social order. The reason Pakistan has been under so much turmoil is due to this pseudo relgious setup which discriminates against minorities, promotes intolerance and extremism. Thats not the ideal environment for economic progress.
Re: Secular Muslim countries are becoming economic progress models
Sure. Prove it. It hasn't worked in Africa. It hasn't worked in the Caribbean. So why has it only worked in Western Christendom?
Because Western countries have been evolving over centuries, and this evolution included ditching the Church long agao. Many of the African countries are still new nations working on a system for themselves. But like I said before, religious conflict is one less problem for them to worry about.
Re: Secular Muslim countries are becoming economic progress models
It’s interesting to see you quote Nelson Mandela, yet your views are nothing like his. I have been visiting this forum on a infrequent basis for a few years now, but never posted. This my first post.
I think Med911 has made some interesting observations and the data seem to support his point.
Even, if you can come up with few countries, that has bucked the trend, but in general his argument seems to hold lot of water. Instead of trying hard to disprove him, try and argue, why Pakistan can’t me a secular Republic or how it can become one without sliding the country further into a turmoil.
But, if you insist on going down this path of disproving Med911, then I suggest you take into consideration the fact, all progress are relative. All counties with stable governments have progressed and all democracies with stable government are “secular” to a large extent. Only countries that has progress without being democratic and secular are the ones with undue advantage of natural wealth, there again human development is suffering.
Please point out some secular democracies with stable governments in Africa and Latin America, that has not progressed, where GDP has not grown, where Human development is not improved over the years.
Re: Secular Muslim countries are becoming economic progress models
Katdaddy firstly welcome to the forum and secondly you make a very important distinction that is not taken into account in this entire thread. Democracy. Malaysia and Indonesia have not been democracies for a very long time. One party rule even with frequent elections does not mean a democracy. Indonesia for most of its development was under the dictatorial rule of Suharto. Yet it progressed faster than most other ASEAN countries. Jakarta to Medan are beautiful and urban cities with great economic development. But they are by no means democracies. Take Singapore as an example. Modern, high HDI indicators, but a repressive state where corporal punishment takes place and freedom of press and speech is infact limited.
Yet they are secular. Indonesia and Singapore that is. So does that mean secular dictatorships or one party system are excellent examples of progressive countries? Nope. They do not. Yet considering the logic you and Med911 here employ that could very well be the case.
Now taking Africa into aconsideration, lets deal with which aspects you think constitute a stable country? Regular elections? Because even Egypt has regular elections, and one would hardly call them free and fair. Free and fair elections? Save for South Africa I believe not a single African country has had free and fair elections. But mind you they are all in fact secular. Then we could come to corruption, anyway the list is long and tiresome.
So as you are the new poster you can pick whatever indicators you feel to test this theory out.
Plus you said that the data seems to support this, I was wondering what empirical data you were referring too?
Re: Secular Muslim countries are becoming economic progress models
All of these countries you cite, have one thing in common. They provide a degree of social order. This provides them the environment for growth.They did this by focusing on what people realy need. These govt were not bogged down by religious doctrine, nor did they allow themselves to be. By not involving the govt insuch issues , the nation provides equal representation to its people,and avoids conflict.
Singopore is may be repressive but her govt is still in power because they mantain social order. They do this by remaining focused on their peoples basic needs, instead of focusing on petty issues of religious doctrine. If they did as what the pak govt doea, they would sow divison in society, and literally open pandoras box of issues that wouldbe impossible to resolve.
The african nations that u keep mentioning have many problems but they are issues that can be resolved. Secularism is only a means to an end, its not the end in itself.
Atleast these countries are wise enough to not add religious conflict to their list, unlike in pakistan.
Re: Secular Muslim countries are becoming economic progress models
Tunis, Algeria, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Morocco, Turkey ( apart from last few years) are all well known Secular countries, where by law some Islamic Practices are prohibited, non-oil producing countries are no way better then Islamic Republic of Pakistan!!! only thing different is, the dictators enjoy full support of USA and get some money against the support...
Even Pakistan, most of the time, has remained secular by practice... and have suffered from it big time... Sikander Mirza, Ayoub, Bhutto, Benazir, NS, Mushy none of them have Islam as their slogan..and everyone of them is biggest security threat to the Pakistan...
I have yet to see Muslim dominant country with Secular label as a developed or developing country... NO NO, Malaysia & Indonesia are muslim countries by all means, i have been there done business there so i can say it by practice they are lot more muslim then Saudi or Pakistan...
MEd world without Shariat will fail look at the statsitics of increase in the rate of suicides in so called developed countries thats why west is comming towards Islam so dont one day Shariat will be established and so called Secular people like you will be humiliated and humiliated not just in this word but on the day of Judge ment too because of preaching the kufr of Secularism INSHALLAH
Med in 1992 in ALgeria Islamic Parties clean sweeped the elections if you dont know than go read first
Med people who are coming to Islam majority of them are women another slap on the face of those secular people who think west has liberated women
Re: Secular Muslim countries are becoming economic progress models
Shariat as a whole is not established any where yet
Shariat has not been established completely anywhere ever. The Sharia Law was formulated hundred of years after the prophet and Khulafa. It is a utopia that has not been successful in even the partial implementations it has seen in the 1200+ years since it was formulated. It is about time to declare it a failure in its current form.
Re: Secular Muslim countries are becoming economic progress models
AJJ Shariat has never failed if you think shariat has failed than you are basically saying GOD has failed if yes than you are the most dumbest person I have ever met SHARIAT are the Laws of GOD and one day it will be establised
Re: Secular Muslim countries are becoming economic progress models
AJJ Shariat has never failed if you think shariat has failed than you are basically saying GOD has failed if yes than you are the most dumbest person I have ever met SHARIAT are the Laws of GOD and one day it will be establised
No we're saying Humans failed. Shariat are nothing more then mans interpretation of Gods laws, and man is prone to make mistakes. Its better the be pragmatic and make laws that make sense, then try to create an idealist society, an endeavor thats bound to fail.
For a pragmatic society, look no firther then the US and other advanced countries.
America and other non Muslim countries, as I have argued before have far more Islamic laws then any where. If you do want to see the closest thing to real Shariat, look no further then the Laws enacted among the secular Non Muslim countries.
you can pick whatever indicators you feel to test this theory out.