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*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
The attack on Fallujah is the worst kept secret in military history... why a father would keep his kids there is impossible for me to comprehend.
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The arrival of German troops at Leningrad in 1941 wasn't exactly hidden, but families still stayed in the city and sat through the 900 day siege with their children.
The coming of the 2nd and 10 SS Panzer Divisions at Arnhem following the 1 Para Bgd's securing of the town in August '44 wasn't exactly unexpected by the Dutch locals, who had seen heavy German armour in the area for days beforehand. And many of them stayed in their homes in the city even as the whole place turned into a battleground.
The arrival of the Red Army at Berlin in April '45 was not exactly unexpected, yet many German families stayed in the city through the fighting.
The people of Srebrenica never left thier homes in the early 90s even as the city was being surrounded by the barbarian horde.
Throughout history, people have always had such a strong attachment to their homes that they have been reluctant to ever let go no matter what. It can only ever be expected that civilians will try and cling on to however much of their lives they can no matter what comes their way.
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*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
"OG, do you really people are that sick they keep their children to be targeted by 1000kg bombs?!"
I believe that there are people who hate the US so much that they negelect their children. Or that they believe Allah will protect them. Or that they want their children to witness the heroic battle. Or that they would put their wives and children to work in battle.
The attack on Fallujah is the worst kept secret in military history... why a father would keep his kids there is impossible for me to comprehend.
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OH plz give ma break, sir.
The things you are fantasizing dont exist in any ways. We are not in times of our Prophets that some one believe in splitting of the Moon or the sea to be a part! Its history and we are future. We humans and as soon you know that you'll be massacred in some hours, days no one wants to keep himself slaughtered.
Shoot-to-kill and/or to make-the-level-with the-ground philosophies with lead to such horrifying pictures.
"Throughout history, people have always had such a strong attachment to their homes that they have been reluctant to ever let go no matter what. It can only ever be expected that civilians will try and cling on to however much of their lives they can no matter what comes their way."
Then I assume they are grown ups, and that AlJazeera will remind the world that the US was flying over leafleting everyone telling them to run or hide. If the insurgents want to face off man to man, then fine. But if AlJazeera starts withe the "civillian casualties" then somebody should blame the parents.
And Maddy, this is hardly Lenigrad. This is more like Custers last stand. He did not invite his kids.... This is more like mass suicide. Sorta stupid really. But, apparently you guys need more martyrs.
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*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
And Maddy, this is hardly Lenigrad. This is more like Custers last stand. He did not invite his kids.... This is more like mass suicide. Sorta stupid really. But, apparently you guys need more martyrs.
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Leningrad was exactly like Custer's last stand - just successful. It seemed ridiculous that a small pocket of Soviet resistance could survive in the face of the army that had crushed Holland, Belgium. France, had routed the British in France and in North Africa, and utterly smashed the Red Army through the last 6 months of '41. Leningrad was isolated by land (surrounded by Germans), by sea, and by air (the Luftwaffe could fly with impunity over and bomb the city).
The Red Army, through making an apparently suicidal stand at Leningrad, did jeapordise the live of the substantial non-combatant population of the city including the kids without inviting them (you don't wanna know what they even ended up eating due to the starvation endured).
When the Red Army holed up in Leningrad - it seemd to be a desperate last stand where the kids were around. Same deal with Falluja - desperate last stand of the non-lapdogs with kids around.
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*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
"Throughout history, people have always had such a strong attachment to their homes that they have been reluctant to ever let go no matter what. It can only ever be expected that civilians will try and cling on to however much of their lives they can no matter what comes their way."
Then I assume they are grown ups, and that AlJazeera will remind the world that the US was flying over leafleting everyone telling them to run or hide. If the insurgents want to face off man to man, then fine. But if AlJazeera starts withe the "civillian casualties" then somebody should blame the parents.
And Maddy, this is hardly Lenigrad. This is more like Custers last stand. He did not invite his kids.... This is more like mass suicide. Sorta stupid really. But, apparently you guys need more martyrs.
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One thing you have to understand, OG. Which many fail to understand and/or believe, that with the Rebellions in war (facted by the media as terrorists) there are enough "civilians", who are defending their homes build up onces with their own sweat and blood, fighting for the same cause and supporting them.
Worst fears regarding the bush presidency has come true only after a week of his re-election. Falujja is under a heavy attack and a worst type of emergency has been imposed on whole iraq. These steps will only increase bloodshed in iraq with no real chances of estbalishing peace. But the mess USA is in, i doubt if kerry would have acted differently either.
A point to consider seriously is why Osama bin Laden adopted to resurface so energetically a day before the polling day in the USA. He is shrewd enough to realise that the tone of his message can contribute to the sense of insecurity which Bush has played upon.
It could lead only to only one interpretation: that the OBL was keen to see Bush relected which would mean an automatic continuation of the war against terrorism. That obviously means that OBL had benefited greatly from that war as it had promoted terrorism in a big way and found recruits for him.Only time will tell who will be the final winner of this war..........
"Worst fears regarding the bush presidency has come true only after a week of his re-election. Falujja is under a heavy attack and a worst type of emergency has been imposed on whole iraq. These steps will only increase bloodshed in iraq with no real chances of estbalishing peace. But the mess USA is in, i doubt if kerry would have acted differently either."
PD, this is not the Bush administrations worst nightmare. Far from it. This assault was aborted by pressure in April. But what sovereign country has an area dominated by murderous rebels? The battle plan for this assault was months in planning. The US military is doing this perfectly. Overwhelming firepower, evacuated city, penned up insurgents, and an election in the pocket. If Kerry had been elected, Bush still would have done this, as it needed to be done. Whats more, the Marines were seriously pi$$ed at having to give up ground won with blood. Thats why the Marines are again leading this effort, not the Army. Worst case there are 3000 less rebels. American casualties will be minimal, given the circumstances. There is no downside to this, either politically or militarily.
The one common denominator in the MidEast is a respect for power. You may not like Fallujah, but it could not stand as a rebel bastion.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
"Worst fears regarding the bush presidency has come true only after a week of his re-election. Falujja is under a heavy attack and a worst type of emergency has been imposed on whole iraq. These steps will only increase bloodshed in iraq with no real chances of estbalishing peace. But the mess USA is in, i doubt if kerry would have acted differently either."
PD, this is not the Bush administrations worst nightmare. Far from it. This assault was aborted by pressure in April. But what sovereign country has an area dominated by murderous rebels? The battle plan for this assault was months in planning. The US military is doing this perfectly. Overwhelming firepower, evacuated city, penned up insurgents, and an election in the pocket. If Kerry had been elected, Bush still would have done this, as it needed to be done. Whats more, the Marines were seriously pi$$ed at having to give up ground won with blood. Thats why the Marines are again leading this effort, not the Army. Worst case there are 3000 less rebels. American casualties will be minimal, given the circumstances. There is no downside to this, either politically or militarily.
The one common denominator in the MidEast is a respect for power. You may not like Fallujah, but it could not stand as a rebel bastion.
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OG, from military strategic standpoint, most of your points hold importance but from political standpoint, this military action will not bring a long-standing peace to this shattered country named Iraq.
Honestly OG, if a neutral person from space lands into Iraq today and is introduced to Fallujah’s situation, he will support USA marine’s military action but alas we are not spacemen. We are forced to view the military action in Fallujah considering past events in Iraq. Frankly speaking, it is extremely difficult for the majority of the world to accept the legitimacy of Iraq war in the first place let alone the military action in Fallujah. You know how supportive I am of war against terrorism but that legitimate war should be taking place against AQ in Afghanistan not in Iraq for some dubious reasons. I am afraid to say that this war in Iraq is making this world much more dangerous place.
FALLUJA, Iraq (Reuters) - A U.S. helicopter has been shot down over Falluja as U.S.-led forces pressed home an offensive on the rebel-held city.
“I saw the helicopter collide with a rocket. It turned into a ball of fire and fell to the ground,” said Reuters reporter Fadel al-Badrani. “There was smoke everywhere.”
He said the helicopter crashed in the city’s Jolan district. There was no immediate word on casualties.
A U.S. military spokesman said he had no information on the report.
There are also reports of at least 3 tanks destroyed.
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*Originally posted by skhan: *
Mashallah, our Iraqi brothers are kicking ass. :k....
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Kicking ass!
Your brothers have brought death and destruction to their own city and you say kicking ass? Man what kind of logic is that? Must be coming from a Mullahtic Hujrah.
If your brothers had an ounce of bravery, they would have come out of the city, instead of hiding behind women and children.
Cowardly acts of car bombing can never compensate for the humiliating retreat of the regular army. This is the time to lay down the arms, participate in elections and start reconstruction of Iraq. If Japan and Germany can do it, why not Iraq. Oh wait! Japan and Germany were not run by Kabuli Kommie Kabal (KKK). These Kabulie Kommies helped destroy their Kabul, and now they are after every major Muslim city like Fallujah and Beghdad.
I am sure your terrorist Kabuli Kommie brothers will soon use their bows and arrows and kick ass of the gunships, tanks and APC.
"OG, from military strategic standpoint, most of your points hold importance but from political standpoint, this military action will not bring a long-standing peace to this shattered country named Iraq. "
I personally hold no hope that Fallujah will be "saved". This is like cutting out a cancer, there will be blood and a scar, and pain. There is no guarantee that there is no other cancer, but you know there is less cancer after the surgery. After Fallujah, there will be a lot fewer insurgents, that is a fact.
Now, for the doom and gloom folks, remember that the Shia south is remarkably quiet. No sympathetic uprisings in Najaf and Sadr city. In Najaf, Sadr lost so much credibility, and so many fighters that he is largely defanged. Somehow this progress is ignored, but 90 days ago that is all we could talk about.
The insurgents will be exhaused soon, three of four more days and they will be so spent that they will collapse, either to surrender or death. How that will be portrayed as a victory for Muslims is up to you, whether it is a political victory is up to the Iraqi people. In the mean time, there is no sanctuary in Iraq, and that means that financing, coordination and cooperation is more difficult. It also means that an enclave that can support foreign fighters is gone.
Fallujah has to be addressed, and every other agreement has failed.
Please clarify, is this wall build by Little Kim or Ho Chi Minh? I see from time to time NoBs bang their head on this wall and then scream and cry... Seems like the shafting will never be forgotten.... Now hear this! Unless you build a wall bigger then this you will be shafted and then labled terrorist too... The remedy I recomend is time tested and very effective... Its called the "rod of peace" I strongly suggest a plutonium or uranium rod of peace the one which Kim has build and Iran is building one....
