Science in the Muslim world

Society Religion & Philosophy
1

When posing this question to any random Muslim he will faultlessly name up various scientists from far a gone era in Islamic development, with Avicenna being a real famous one.

What is the current state of affairs? Is there any research being done in Muslims countries. As far as I know it is, for example in Egypt, great archelogical research is done…however, it is done by Europeans/Americans whereas the Egyptians are merely workers. HOw come? Why doesn’t any Egyptian start an archelogical research?

Many other examples are present. With major oil reserves in Arabia, one would expect that country to be leading when it comes to petrol development. HOw come Shell, BP and others are leading in petrol-research?

Even closer to home, the little research that is done in Pakistan is usually supervised/conducted by foreigners?

What’s wrong with Muslims themselves? Why don’t they show any interest in research? Any reasons?

2

Give it another 15-20 years and you will see some progress....we are lil behind in science and education.

3

Not enough funds available for research mainly in Pakistan. Israel has more PHD graduates than the whole arab world combined every year. TBH any Pakistanis that do become experts in a field head straight to the UK, USA, EU for a decent job with a company car.

4

Furqan: u really think that in 20 yrs time muslims will have progressed scientifically? I tend to think the Muslim community halted around 500 years ago......and i think it will take more than 20 yrs to overhaul that.

risc: i've often seen for Pakis earning money is the sole purpose behind their education, whereas I've often come across western ppl who follow educations for the sake of education and scientific progress

5

i didnt say the muslims will out perform the others in 20 years....i said u will see some interesting changes.

6

Exactly once the money starts rolling in their ambitions are met. No drive to do something pionering. Those that do research in the west are usually paid as researches working under someone.

7

I have to agree with risc on this

Cash flow is the main problem.
And next to that, the pakistani need to be motivated to invest money into such things.
Alot of rich and powerfull pakistani are just filling their pockets bus :bummer:

8

The main problem is the mentality of the society. Research projects or jobs are seen as a waste time. Everybody is supposed to be a doctor an engineer and accumulate a great deal of wealth. That is the basic premise. Secondly the education system in the Islamic world is extremely pathetic, and that would be one of the good schools. There is no emphasis placed on a good education by the entire society. Rather a small segment sees it as a way forward. To have science in the Muslim world first teach them how to read, write and think independently.

9

Some muslims in recent times have done groundbreaking research in the scientific areas of pyrotechnics and explosives. Not much progress has resulted from these experiments though.

10

just to paraphrase, Muslims often set out with some education with the sole prupose of being able to fill their pockets by the time they've finished studies

11

most of the muslims find research a waste of time....
and even those who do get involved in research usually rely on very poor lab work/experiments....
sometimes there is no experimentation....

my own msc thesis was based on data collected from the literature and no experiments done simply cuz we did not have the facilities in the uni....

my phd research also involves no lab work also cuz no one wud be willing to fund the research and provide lab facilities....

my supervisor told me to fill the FINANCES REQUIRED field in my phd proposal with an amount of somthing like 1000 US dollars, cuz he says more amount than this wud have the proposal rejected....

and in europe, on a similar work, one prof was tellign me his friend has a half million pounds research fund....

12

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by armughal: *
most of the muslims find research a waste of time....
and even those who do get involved in research usually rely on very poor lab work/experiments....
sometimes there is no experimentation....

my own msc thesis was based on data collected from the literature and no experiments done simply cuz we did not have the facilities in the uni....

my phd research also involves no lab work also cuz no one wud be willing to fund the research and provide lab facilities....

my supervisor told me to fill the FINANCES REQUIRED field in my phd proposal with an amount of somthing like 1000 US dollars, cuz he says more amount than this wud have the proposal rejected....

and in europe, on a similar work, one prof was tellign me his friend has a half million pounds research fund....
[/QUOTE]

how much saudis spend on research ? cant they recruit best of the muslim brain all over the world?

13

There is something deeper to ponder. ISrael produces more PHD candidates each than than the entire arab world combined. The South ASian and Southeast asian kids of maids in Saudi arabia, learn to make car parts; their counterparts learn to blow up cars. Innovation comes when responsibilty and ackowledgement of the status quo is achieved thereby leading to a yearning for betterment. Those that get caught up in blaming everyone for their condition, can't own up to responsibility and acknoledge the limitations are the ones whose future is not bright.

14

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by NeSCio: *
just to paraphrase, Muslims often *set out with some education with the sole prupose of being able to fill their pockets by the time they've finished studies
[/QUOTE]

Nescio, there is nothing wrong with that. Infact if more people looked at monetzing their educational backgrounds, the more innovation there would be. For each bit of research, art, music, what have you there has always been sponsorers. COnsider the Medicis as rennaisance Venture Capitalists.

15

Israel is a bad example to use, because of the cultural influence of European Jews who moved to occupy Palestine and brought European values of the importance of academic research to Israeli society.

A far better comparison is India. 70 years ago, under colonial rule, Muslim and Indian societies were on par with regards to not just intellectual development of society, but also economically.

Yet scientific research today is considerably more advanced in India (and I'm referring to work done by Indian scientists, educated in India who have rarely left India) than in the Muslim world. For instance, I came across news reports yesterday of research done in India that may lead to an injection-less way of delivering insulin.

As many in this thread have suggested, it is the fact that there is less money in academic research than in other fields that the educated can go into that drives this. Muslim societies are concerned with individual accumulation of wealth, it seems, more so than Indian society is (where being highly educated is increasingly more and more valued, though eing wealthy is obviously also appreciated).

There is probably a whole wealth of sociological research than can be done on the reasons for this, but my leading theory is that in most Muslim societies, economic growth has been stagnant and thus people are more concerned with accumulating as much wealth as possible. This translates into social pressures and expectations to study and work in lucrative fields. In India, economic growth has meant that Indians are more willing to go into less lucrative fields, such as research, where you can build prestige through your knowledge.

One could be tempted to make the argument that India's been a democracy fostered research, but this is countered by the scientific advances made in the totalitarian USSR between 1945 and 1990 in particular (ie after the Soviets industrialised).

The scientific advances in the Muslim past occured during period of great economic power for Muslim societies. Wealth fosters research. Armughal has first hand experience of this.

For the Muslim world to catch up scientifically will take a period of hundreds of years, just as we declined over hundreds of years. We'll need generations of competent leadership (lacking, with just a handful of leaders being the exception) who can take advantage of globalisation to grow national economies, create wealth, and thus break the overriding drive for wealth and instead foster intellectualism.

16

only last week there was this whole 5-episode long documentary on CNN about IT and economic progress made by India in the last couple of years. It’s astonishing to see what they’ve achieved :k::eek:

17

Maddie's comments re: scientific research in India used to be more appropriate till about a few years ago.

It is true that post-independence, primarily under Nehru, a lot of government sponsored research institutions were set up. Research there was not world class, but at least something was done. These institutes too have to live with shortage of funds, etc.

But funds is just one piece of the puzzle. One of India's laureates, Sir CV Raman had equipment worth only about Rs. 3000 (then) when he obtained his Nobel. What is more important is the interest and spark in science that more often than not, is provided by good teachers.

Sadly, India's success in IT has meant that fewer and fewer students take up pure sciences in college, let alone get into research. My concern is that good quality teachers in these subjects would be rare in the next few decades. With low pay, there is hardly much incentive.

In the recent past, probably understandably, many of the govt. sponsored research & higher educational institutes have diverted their energies into applied research.

One positive trend in India in recent years is bio-technology. A lot of work is being done and a lot of money to be made as well. In fact, in its own way, there is a good amount of research in this field, and bio-tech is favoured to be the next outsourcing wave after IT. Many MNCs have set up research labs in India and the cost of research is said to be one-tenth of those in the US. Some consolation...

18

even villagers are aware of innovation

It looks ugly, is bulky and could pass off as junk. But everyone who has taken a closer look has gasped at the simplicity of the groundnut-digger and wowed at the genius of a Class VII dropout
It took me a year to build,’’ Khan says, as he dusts his machine lovingly. ‘‘So many farmers walk through this workshop, looking to buy or sell tractors. And so many of them would often tell me how difficult it was to get labour during harvesting season and how expensive it was. They all wished things were easier and I decided to actually try and make it easier for them

http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=54461&spf=true

19

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by rvikz: *
....even villagers are aware of innovation
....
[/QUOTE]

This is the typical feel-good Bharati rant. I see 4-5 "innovations" with no patent, and no future for commercialization.

**
1.. The biggest killer of innovation is commie-leftie crap about ownership.
2.. The second biggest killer of innovation is the close-minded MAToo philosophy.
**

Bharat, Pakistan, Middle East, and the rest of the 3rd class world is afflicted with either 1, or 2, (or worse yet) both of these deseases.

IT work in the region is just above the key-board labor.

Just remember! Most of the Bharati-IT is in fact Amreeki-IT, without which it is always the same old Bharati-$hit.

Patent laws in both Pak and Bharat are simply laughed-at when shops openly sell illegal copies of books, music, video, and software. Heck the commie-leftie governments openly allow illegal copies so that the "masses" can remain poor forever.

You can have tonnes of $$ and still be barren when it comes to innovation. Why! well the freedom of thought is always preferable to money. With top notch thought process, one can make as much money as possible. When freedom is snatched, money simply goes away.

You guys expect Saudis to be the tech-innovators? Ha! in what, suicide jackets, or cell-phone triggered booby traps?

Please O Bharati neighbors, save us from the lectures about the imaginary fruits of Nehruvian Show-Shaw-lism. We had our Nehru, the Bhatto-Matto who was equally successful in destroying every ounce of entrepreneurship in Pakistan.

20

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by armughal: *
.....and in europe, on a similar work, ..his friend has a half million pounds research fund....
[/QUOTE]

Then please go to Europe man! Why on earth you are still in the country. Complaining is not going to help.

Research is a commitment, a way of life that forces people to travel to distant lands in search of knowledge. Sitting at home while laying eggs will lead your research to nowhere.