Saudi woman roaming in miniskirt

[ajazali]

Re: Saudi woman roaming in miniskirt

@Bobby1

How about Saudi old men purchasing young girls from their fathers in marriage? That girl at 8, 10,12 etc forced to marry a 50,60,70 year old is not an adult. Why would the Mullahs not allow an age limit for marriage? Do you think an old man marrying a 10 year old is Halal when the guardian has consented?

There are only a few examples of teen age marrying old age but media project it to as norm in saudi arabia. I guess you wont believe in media when it project Iranian women as oppressed as they wear hijab.

If you can have 4 women including under age children in marriage and just say talak 3 times and boot one out and purchase a new one then not much use of premarital nothing. Marital is giving old pervs everything.

I wonder if you actually know anything about the marriages you are talking here. Actually women would know the future of that marriage. I am not defending it but both man and woman are responsible.

[ajazali]

Re: Saudi woman roaming in miniskirt

@Bobby1

So these are not religious people?

How do you know they risked their lives to reach west? look at your post #18](http://gupshup.org/gs/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=18)

[Bobby1]

Re: Saudi woman roaming in miniskirt

@ajazali

There are only a few examples of teen age marrying old age but media project it to as norm in saudi arabia. I guess you wont believe in media when it project Iranian women as oppressed as they wear hijab.

I wonder if you actually know anything about the marriages you are talking here. Actually women would know the future of that marriage. I am not defending it but both man and women are responsible.

Why do the grand Muftis and religious council than prevent enactment of law to ban child marriages, in our law a child cannot consent so it is classified as rape. A 12 year old sir is not a woman, she is a child and many a times sold by her guardian. Wearing hijab is not oppression but flogging them for not wearing is horrific oppression.

[ajazali]

Re: Saudi woman roaming in miniskirt

@Bobby1

Why do the grand Muftis and religious council than prevent enactment of law to ban child marriages, in our law a child cannot consent so it is classified as rape. A 12 year old sir is not a woman, she is a child and many a times sold by her guardian. Wearing hijab is not oppression but flogging them for not wearing is horrific oppression.

Make up your mind what are you discussing. You started from saudis doing ‘muta’ so I replied you on that. then you switched to underage marriage. they are two different things. when I say women, I am replying to your post regarding muta.

12 year old marriage issue is sharia related and its dealing varies from one time, place and environment to another. Shia Sunni both have similar views regarding age and consent of guardian.

ok, you say a child cannot consent, what is west doing to prevent children having sex (rape)? or there is no need of consent when children are of similar age? or no damage is done when children are of same age?

[SaeedinPakistan]

Re: Saudi woman roaming in miniskirt

@redvelvet

Good grief. If we are ONLY looking at employment opportunities, then yes it can be said that West is better than Saudi. If we are comparing which country us more technologically advanced, then yes west will come out on top. But comparing premarital sex and job opportunities is like comparing apples to oranges.

Anyhow, premarital sex is rampant…both in the east and the west. If there’s a pissing contest to see which of the two is slightly “better”…I’d have to say Saudi. The reason being that the mahol/environment/culture in Saudi is such that premarital sex is still considered taboo…as something that is shameful…even though the sin is taking place in a more hush-hush way. But in the west…the hush-hush attitude doesn’t exist. In the west, it’s nit considered taboo or shameful. In the west premarital sex is glorified…in the songs…in movies…in magazines…and it’s considered a “rite of passage” among the youth.

And yes, I know that people in Saudi listen to the same songs and watch the same movies. But it boils down to cultural perceptions. Look, HYPOCRISY is everywhere…even in Makkah and Madinah.

But the question is…

Which one is worse?

A country where …even though premarital sex is taking place…there is still a feeling of taboo/sharam attached to it…so that people still feel enough to shame to not openly/publicly reveal this sin to others

OR…

A country where all hayaa is gone…people feel no shame in talking about premarital conquests…where it is openly encouraged…and considered “cool”…and “praiseworthy” among the masses …both in private and public?

If one has to make a choice between whether a country that has (ten) 10% “hayaa” left…is better or worse than a country that has 4% of hayaa left…err…it’s really not that hard to understand that the 10% modesty is still better than the 4% modesty…for the sake of argument. And again, this is looking only at the comparison of one specific issue…premarital sex…not a khichri of issues like employment, social freedoms, etc etc.

I don’t think a country’s government ought to enforce hayaa\honor on it’s citizens. Hayaa is an individual thing dictated by a variety of factors (culture, religion, family, etc). A person’s sense of honor is not stagnant, for many it evolves as their outlook on life changes. The same goes for sin. A government cannot define sin because it rules over a group of people with varied belief systems. Sin, transgression of the law of God, might mean different things to different people depending on which god they believe in or if they believe in any god at all.

All that said, people should have the freedom to do what they want as long as they’re not causing harm to other folks. Seeing a women in a miniskirt does not harm anyone so it should not be a punishable. Premarital sex does not harm anyone. Sure, there’s a risk of STIs or unwanted pregnancys but that’s something that can be mitigated via proper education on safe sexual practices.

No one would criticize Saudis if all the women **voluntarily **wore their Hijabs at all times and all Saudis **voluntarily **abstained from premarital sex. However, that is not the case.

[mahool]

Re: Saudi woman roaming in miniskirt

@ajazali

Saudia ki barri fikar hai. Premarital sex among in-school youths
somewhat same is true for west as well. Not saying saudis are better would rather say west is worse.

baat saudion ki horahi hia… west ka zikar kion.. konkay yeh tumhary mia baap hian..

[ajazali]

Re: Saudi woman roaming in miniskirt

@mahool

baat saudion ki horahi hia… west ka zikar kion.. konkay yeh tumhary mia baap hian..

bhonknay walay kuttay bhonktay rehtay hain.

[mahool]

Re: Saudi woman roaming in miniskirt

@ajazali

bhonknay walay kuttay bhonktay rehtay hain.

yeh baat tumnay samany sheesha rakh kar boli hia…

[Bobby1]

Re: Saudi woman roaming in miniskirt

@ajazali

Make up your mind what are you discussing. You started from saudis doing ‘muta’ so I replied you on that. then you switched to underage marriage. they are two different things. when I say women, I am replying to your post regarding muta.

12 year old marriage issue is sharia related and its dealing varies from one time, place and environment to another. Shia Sunni both have similar views regarding age and consent of guardian.

ok, you say a child cannot consent, what is west doing to prevent children having sex (rape)? or there is no need of consent when children are of similar age? or no damage is done when children are of same age?

Muta is committed against many Indian and Indonesian children and many arent women they are mere children, all it is, is prostitution being sanctified. Child marriages are child rapes and using religion cannot justify it in this day and age. An adult here involved with an under 18 yr old person gets dealt with very harshly by law. To your question about what we do about rape, for starters we don’t flog, jail or stone the rape victim and we don’t blame the victim and punish the rapist severely. Girls can roam freely here because of the safety provided by the society.

[mahool]

Re: Saudi woman roaming in miniskirt

There is equivalent of Muta in Sunni school…Misyar…

[Bobby1]

Re: Saudi woman roaming in miniskirt

@ajazali

How do you know they risked their lives to reach west? look at your post #18](http://gupshup.org/gs/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=18)

There have been many reports of hundreds drowning trying to get to Europe on boats. I have read about people claiming to be gay to get immigration and also many non Ahmadis claiming to be Ahmadis for refugee status. West spends tens of billions trying to secure their borders. Why are these people trying to breakdown the border to get into an immoral society?

[Mystique]

Re: Saudi woman roaming in miniskirt

Because the reality of their native, morally superior islamic culture is extremely immoral. But their eyes are too blind to see and their hearts too closed to admit what they call moral and islamic is opposite of islamic teachings. It is actually a jungle culture mistakenly understood to be ‘islamic’. Jungle culture of kill to survive. If you dont kill, you’ll get killed. Nothing to do with islam really.

@Bobby1

There have been many reports of hundreds drowning trying to get to Europe on boats. I have read about people claiming to be gay to get immigration and also many non Ahmadis claiming to be Ahmadis for refugee status. West spends tens of billions trying to secure their borders. Why are these people trying to breakdown the border to get into an immoral society?

[ajazali]

Re: Saudi woman roaming in miniskirt

@Bobby1

There have been many reports of hundreds drowning trying to get to Europe on boats. I have read about people claiming to be gay to get immigration and also many non Ahmadis claiming to be Ahmadis for refugee status. West spends tens of billions trying to secure their borders. Why are these people trying to breakdown the border to get into an immoral society?

What does it has to do with religion?
I think you dont want to talk about what you cannot answer and keep on lying. why dont you answer my question when I ask you how do you know that all the religious people in west reach there after risking their lives?

[ajazali]

Re: Saudi woman roaming in miniskirt

@Bobby1

Muta is committed against many Indian and Indonesian children and many arent women they are mere children, all it is, is prostitution being sanctified. Child marriages are child rapes and using religion cannot justify it in this day and age. An adult here involved with an under 18 yr old person gets dealt with very harshly by law. To your question about what we do about rape, for starters we don’t flog, jail or stone the rape victim and we don’t blame the victim and punish the rapist severely. Girls can roam freely here because of the safety provided by the society.

Your point is a child cannot consent marriage so its rape. So it is also rape when school going girls have sex, right?
But my point is regarding damage done while you are following propaganda of under age marriage. Liberals hardly believe in morality being universal so no question of morality here.
So if damage is done in case child marriage so is in case of school going girls. And the society you are talking is not only nurturing an environment where children having sex but also getting pregnant.

[SaeedinPakistan]

Re: Saudi woman roaming in miniskirt

@ajazali

Your point is a child cannot consent marriage so its rape. So it is also rape when school going girls have sex, right?
But my point is regarding damage done while you are following propaganda of under age marriage. Liberals hardly believe in morality being universal so no question of morality here.
So if damage is done in case child marriage so is in case of school going girls. And the society you are talking is not only nurturing an environment where children having sex but also getting pregnant.

Sure it’s statutory rape if a minor has sex with a minor. However, as long as both parties consent, they are both victims and perpetrators because they are both minors.

Moreover, statutory rape laws are on the books to prevent adults from taking advantage of minors who are susceptible to manipulation from adults.

There are teenagers who are sexually active in every society. The numbers of such teenagers might differ but they are there. Funny you mention pregnancy. The people in the Bible Belt here in the US have the same opinion about sex as you. They push hard for abstinence only education in school. The kids in school aren’t taught about safe sex practices. Guess what, these areas have the highest instances of teenage pregnancy.

Kids marrying Grown adults:
High risk of exploitation because of the difference in maturity and social clout. Trapped forever even if the relationship is abusive.

Teenage Relationship:
Similar levels of maturity and social standing. Usually easier to break away from an abusive\dysfunctional relationship.

[Bobby1]

Re: Saudi woman roaming in miniskirt

@ajazali

What does it has to do with religion?
I think you dont want to talk about what you cannot answer and keep on lying. why dont you answer my question when I ask you how do you know that all the religious people in west reach there after risking their lives?

Of course they don’t all reach by faking persecution, many do claim refugee status. Some came as family members, some came as work permits but the truth is that they all made a choice to come here. Many pay lawyers lots of money to get here. They stand in line outside embassy for days, millions of visas are rejected and they keep trying to leave.

**the fact is no one forced them to come to west and none is forcing them to stay. Why would they just not leave if this place is so bad?
**

[Bobby1]

Re: Saudi woman roaming in miniskirt

@SaeedinPakistan

Sure it’s statutory rape if a minor has sex with a minor. However, as long as both parties consent, they are both victims and perpetrators because they are both minors.

Moreover, statutory rape laws are on the books to prevent adults from taking advantage of minors who are susceptible to manipulation from adults.

There are teenagers who are sexually active in every society. The numbers of such teenagers might differ but they are there. Funny you mention pregnancy. The people in the Bible Belt here in the US have the same opinion about sex as you. They push hard for abstinence only education in school. The kids in school aren’t taught about safe sex practices. Guess what, these areas have the highest instances of teenage pregnancy.

Kids marrying Grown adults:
High risk of exploitation because of the difference in maturity and social clout. Trapped forever even if the relationship is abusive.

Teenage Relationship:
Similar levels of maturity and social standing. Usually easier to break away from an abusive\dysfunctional relationship.

Wow!! such an amazing and educational post.

[Bobby1]

Re: Saudi woman roaming in miniskirt

@ajazali

Your point is a child cannot consent marriage so its rape. So it is also rape when school going girls have sex, right?
But my point is regarding damage done while you are following propaganda of under age marriage. Liberals hardly believe in morality being universal so no question of morality here.
So if damage is done in case child marriage so is in case of school going girls. And the society you are talking is not only nurturing an environment where children having sex but also getting pregnant.

I lived in Pakistan from grade 8 to after Engineering, I went to a coed school and at closing time there would be shiney cars lined up outside the school with middle aged men trying to entice underaged girls to go with them as they would buy them expensive gifts and almost half the girls went with them. It was true also for many all girls school and girls colleges. When we were at Uni even the burqas were going on dates. My very wealthy industrialist friend would be having a liaison with a new women on a regular basis and many were married so please let us not pretend that sex is a western thing only

There was an illegal abortion clinic in our neighborhood and that lady doctor was a very busy person.

[mocpk]

Re: Saudi woman roaming in miniskirt

@Bobby1

I lived in Pakistan from grade 8 to after Engineering, I went to a coed school and at closing time there would be shiney cars lined up outside the school with middle aged men trying to entice underaged girls to go with them as they would buy them expensive gifts and almost half the girls went with them. It was true also for many all girls school and girls colleges. When we were at Uni even the burqas were going on dates. My very wealthy industrialist friend would be having a liaison with a new women on a regular basis and many were married so please let us not pretend that sex is a western thing only

There was an illegal abortion clinic in our neighborhood and that lady doctor was a very busy person.

Either you lived/studied in a red light area close to a chakla or you are making all of this **** up. I understand the goras might be fascinated with your made up stories but please stop throwing your country under the bus.

[Mystique]

Re: Saudi woman roaming in miniskirt

I studied in a school overseas. One of our teachers with two Masters did her schooling from Pakistan (Don’t remember which city). She often shared the similar stories about burka/chaadar clad girls bunking classes to go on dates with different guys.

@mocpk

Either you lived/studied in a red light area close to a chakla or you are making all of this **** up. I understand the goras might be fascinated with your made up stories but please stop throwing your country under the bus.