Sanathana Dharma - will this continue its record of longivity?

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Sanathana Dharma - will this continue its record of longivity?

Very interesting. Written without wan agenda. I like that.

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Re: Sanathana Dharma - will this continue its record of longivity?

Who is this person? A simple google search on him and his book only returns results from muslim websites like ismailli,net, islamicvoice.com quoting him. Has his work been quoted by cultural linguists and people who have studied the religion? There are many scholars both Indian and western who have studied the vedas. Do they endorse him? The vedas were first translated in the 18th century and nobody found these gems till this guy and zakir naik came around? Anybody can twist words and write a book. Heck even P.N Oak is more popular than this guy and has many publications to his name. Do you believe his books are authentic? If you want to read about a different religion, go to the source and get a genuine translation. If you only want to legitimize the superiority of your own religion through another religion, then that only smacks of inferiority complex I am afraid. I don’t feel comfortable continuing this discussion in this thread since I don’t want to hijack it and make it about religion. Hinduism is only a facet of Sanatano Dharma and not the whole part.

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Re: Sanathana Dharma - will this continue its record of longivity?

North Indians, does Prayag University even exist? Again, a simple google search did not return anything except "Prayag Sangeet Samiti". Prayag is the original name of Allahabad. Sp I even went into Wikipedia to look at educational institutions inAllahabad and drew a blank there as well.

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Re: Sanathana Dharma - will this continue its record of longivity?


i'm from Allahabad...the university there is called Allahabad University...never heard of Prayag University.

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Re: Sanathana Dharma - will this continue its record of longivity?

Of course you can differ - everyone has their own opinion. But as you yourself said, 'the Avatar will be God come in human form to lead and teach humans' . Then you follow it with but he will not be an Imam, Prophet, Acharya, etc. So are you saying these specific 'professions' are excluded for Avatarhood? Surely you don't mean that?

An Avatar can be any human - an Acharya or an Imam.

My opinion is that Zakir Naik is making a mistake - the Muhammad predicted in the Vedas (if this is indeed so - I am no expert on the Vedas) is not Muhammad the Prophet (pbuh) but Muhammad Al Mahdi, the expected Imam.

But to get back to the topic, Hinduism has survived for so long because it has been willing to accept new teachers (no matter from what background) and their new teachings without destroying older traditions.

Although Muslims are waiting for the Imam Mahdi, they may not be able to accept any new teachings from him, while Hindus will be willing to listen even though he may be a Muslim. So many Muslims may actually reject him (especially if he says all religions are equally valid - which I expect him to do, just like Shirdi SaiBaba did).

That is why Hinduism will continue to survive, while both Islam and Christianity are at risk when a new Teacher appears.

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Re: Sanathana Dharma - will this continue its record of longivity?

Sigh! Who is an Avatar? Avatar is an incarnation of God. He is God taken human form. He/She will be aware of his Godhood from the moment of his birth. This is completely different from a prophet. A prophet is a messenger of God. He is not an incarnation of God. Mohammed was a messenger of Allah. He did not call himself an Incarnation of Allah. Compare that with Krishna who showed the entire creation in this mouth to his foster mother Yashoda and the Vishwaroopa to Arjuna. Jesus called himself "son of God" only towards the end he claimed "Me and my father are one and the same". That is what Upanishads say "Aham Brahamasmi" (I am Brahman). Acharya and Imams are teachers and social reformers. What happens after Imam Mahdi comes? Will he come again and again to destroy evil and lead the world? An Avatar will. The next avatar will not be the last one. Krishna promises that when he says "...I will incarnate from time to time in era to era" He may be born in the lowliest and the poorest families or the richest. The number of avatars are mentioned only in fables and puranas not the vedas (shruti). The ext incarnation of Vishnu (as for now) will be kalki and usher in Satya yuga and not judgment day or end of the world. So no and Acharya or Imam cannot be an Avatar. Feel free to compare prophets to other acharyas like Shankaracharya etc. But if this Imam Mahdi does come and his teachings benefits huminity, there is nothing wrong in respecting his teachings. But he cannot be the Avatar. Sorry. Don't care to discuss this anymore in this thread.

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Re: Sanathana Dharma - will this continue its record of longivity?

I still don't understand what you mean.

Krishna was both an Avatar and a king (of a small kingdom). He did not give up his work as a king just because he was an Avatar. Rama was an Avatar as well as a prince (and king later).

You are saying that the Imam Mahdi if he is an Avatar will refuse to be an Imam too?

Is 'king' the only profession allowed of an Avatar? (this is a problem, because there are no kings these days)

I am not saying Imam and Avatar mean the same thing.

All I am saying is that it is possible for an Imam to be an Avatar or to say that in more modern terms - even a CEO could be an Avatar too (probably unlikely though). Sigh!

So in my opinion, the expected Imam Mahdi will be an Avatar (although Muslims may not refer to him in those terms).

But he will be rejected by many Muslims as well as many Christians because he may accept all religions as valid (or give new teachings which are not part of existing dogma). Many Hindus may reject him too because he is a Muslim.

So there will be a big struggle (and maybe bloodshed) before he is accepted.

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Re: Sanathana Dharma - will this continue its record of longivity?

It is possible for an Avatar to be anything including a sweeper. Having said that, muslims believe that that Imam will come before judgement day. For hindus there is no judgement day. For muslims after judgement day, then what? For hindus its is the dawn of a new yuga since the time is a cycle. So will the Imam come do his stuff and tell the muslims "Sorry folks ! There is no judgement day, it is infact the dawn of a new era. Expect my coming again. It will happen because I am Allah in human form? Yeah ! I can see that message being accepted. Or will he tell the Hindus? I came here to take all the Christians and muslims to their judgement . Now that the earth is free of half the humanity, feel free to usher in your new era and live in peace. Or better yet, will he tell hindus "Folks ! Remember how I promised you that I will incarnate from time to time to guide you? I kinda...lied. I am tired of doing all this guiding stuff since I have lost hope in humanity. Please join the queue behind those muslims and Christians so that I can include y'all in the judgement day party too. Also, I am such a liar. I know I promised you all that you will all merge into me eventually but I decided to go ahead and create a paradise for you. You will be joining other religious groups there... all good people, I assure you . So now humanity can finally religious harmony. This is the problem of trying to marry 2 different ideologies that are so radically different. So instead of trying to create a apple-orange hybrid, leave it alone so that people can choose what they want or take a bite of both. If you still aren't able to understand what I am saying, I give up.

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Re: Sanathana Dharma - will this continue its record of longivity?

This thread is taking some nice deviations from original intent. But I am not too concerned about such strict guidelines. We have plenty of such OPs here - and I don't want to add to the already swelling numbers of on-topic OPs
So do diverge. And come back as is convenient. Makes for stimulating discussions. And some enlightening ones too.

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Re: Sanathana Dharma - will this continue its record of longivity?

I am glad you agree that anyone can be an Avatar and no profession or nationalities are excluded.

About what the Avatar will do, actually you are partially right. The new Avatar (the Imam Mahdi (pbuh) as I believe) will sort things out for all of us (Muslims, Hindus, Christians) and correct any misunderstandings that are there in all our beliefs.

I don't think we should presume to predict what he will teach. But many will be disappointed, especially those with rigid and very fixed beliefs and dogmas.

As I said Hinduism is very flexible, so it will survive even if he says there will be a judgment day (I don't believe there will be one). Very rigid religions will face a major crisis. A new age will indeed start, we just have to wait and see how it is and have faith that it will be for the best.

With reference to the OP - this is actually somewhat on topic, since it suggests how Hinduism has survived and will continue to do so. As far as Hinduism is concerned, this new age may just produce a new set of scriptures - maybe called the Mahdi Puranas ? (hopefully no one takes offence if I say that)

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Re: Sanathana Dharma - will this continue its record of longivity?

few facts about Imam Mahdi.. and more to come. please aske if any question.

The coming of Imam Mahdi is one of the signs of Qiyamah as is the belief of the Ahlus-Sunnah and he has yet to appear. Abdullah ibn Masu`dfile:///C:\Users\s102351\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.gifhas reported that the Prophetfile:///C:\Users\s102351\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image002.gifhas said:
“The world will not pass away before the Arabs are ruled by a man (referring to Mahdi) of my family whose name will be the same as mine”
(Abu Dawud).
However, many people in the past falsely claimed to be Imam Mahdi. One of these false claimants was Muhammad bin Tumarat, a tyrant who spread corruption and even buried some of his companions because they did not believe that he was the Mahdi described by the Ahaadith of Rasulullah

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Some believe it was Muhammad bin Al-Sakari who disappeared at the age of five and went into hiding and has been hiding 10 centuries. Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Qadiani (the cursed) was also one of those who claimed to be the Mahdi as well as many other people. Beside those mentioned there were many others who claimed the office of Mahdi, the most recent being somebody from Manchester who claimed the position for himself. It should be noted that none of the above or anybody else who claimed to be the Mahdi in the past fulfilled the conditions laid down by the Prophet

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Some of the signs which will precede Imam Mahdi are as follows, so that we Muslims are not mislead to believe in somebody claiming to be the Mahdi who in reality is a blatant liar.

Signs that will Precede Imam Mahdi

  1. A General Sign
    There are many signs that will precede him, a general and very important sign is that he will come at a time when there is great confutation, intense disputes and violent deaths. When people are afflicted by disturbance and experiencing great fear. Calamities will fall upon the people, so much so that a man shall not find a shelter to shelter him self from oppression. There will be battles and fitnaas before his appearance. Every time a fitnaa has come to end, another will start, spread and intensify. The people will be troubled to such an extent that they will long for death. It is then that Imam Mahdi will be sent.
    Abu Saeed Al-Khudri has repoted that the Messenger of Allah

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said “He will be sent at a time of intense disputes and differences among people and earthquakes…” (Ahmed)
2) The Double Eclipse In Ramadan
Note. The Double Eclipse In Ramadan statement quoted from Darequtni is NOT verified, indeed it’s authenticity is questionable. It is NOT to be considered as authentic Hadith.
3) The Battle in Mina
Before Imam Mahdi emerges an inter-tribal fight will take place. In the same year hajis will be looted and a battle will erupt in Mina in which many people will be killed. Ameer bin Shauaib reported from his grandfather that the messenger of Allah

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said:
“In Dhul Qaidah (Islamic Month) the tribes will fight, Hajis will be looted and there will be a battle in Mina in which many people will be slain and blood will flow until it runs over the Jamaratul Aqba. Their companion (referring to Imam Mahdi) will flee to a point between the corner and the Maqaam and will be forced to accept people’s allegiance.”
(Al-Fitan, Nuaim ibn Hammad)

  1. The Euphrates will Disclose a Mountain of Gold
    The Final Hour will not come until the river Euphrates (which flows through Syria and Iraq and finally opens in the Gulf) will disclose a mountain of gold over which people will fight and die Abu Hurairah

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reported that the Messenger of Allahfile:///C:\Users\s102351\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image002.gifsaid:
“The shall not occur until the Euphrateswill disclosea mountain of gold, over which people will fight. 99 out of every hundred shall die, and every one of them shall say, 'perchance I shall be the one to succeed”
(Muslim)
In another narration we have been told that whoever is present at the time when the Euphrates discloses a mountain of gold should not take the gold.
5) Emergence of the Sufyani
The Sufyani (a descendant of Abu Sufyan) will emerge before Imam Mahdi from the depths of Damascus. According to some weak narrations, his name will be Urwa bin Muhammad and his kunniya ‘Abu Utbah’. The Ahadith regarding the Sufyani specify that he is a tyrant who will spread corruption and mischeif on the earth before Imam Mahdi. He will be such a tyrant that he will kill the children and rip out the bellies of women. When he hears about the Mahdi, he will send an army to seize and kill him. However the earth will swallow this army before it even reaches Imam Mahdi. Abu Hurairah

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has narrated that the Prophet

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said:
“A man will emerge from the depths of Damascus. He will be called Sufyani. Most of those who follow him will be from the tribe of Kalb. He will kill by ripping the stomachs of women and even kill the children. A man from my family will appear in the Haram, the news of his advent will reach the Sufyani and he will send to him one of his armies. He (referring to Imam Mahdi) will defeat them. They will then travel with whoever remains until they come to a desert and they will be swallowed. None will be saved except the one who had informed the others about them.”
(Mustadrak).

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Re: Sanathana Dharma - will this continue its record of longivity?

now going back to the topic... i wanted to ask what is or was the base on sanathana dharam / religion. please take me step by step who ever is going to answer this.. because all teh above gor me really mixed up.

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Re: Sanathana Dharma - will this continue its record of longivity?

It is good to know the details of all these prophesies, but we should not expect each detail to be fulfilled exactly as written. As it is there are differences amongst Muslims themselves, about all the events and their sequence. It is enough to know that a spiritual leader called the Imam Mahdi is expected and that he will be followed soon after by Jesus (the story about Sufyani or the Dajjal is important but they are not what we are interested in).

As for your question about Sanatana Dharma (otherwise known as Hinduism) - I am not exactly sure what you are asking. All I can say is the Hindu beliefs have evolved over many thousands of years. As spiritual teachers have appeared in the world, Hindu scriptures have been added to and have continued to evolve. Some beliefs if they seem obsolete have been discarded (for instance most of the Vedic Gods are no longer worshiped). Currently most Hindus do believe in multiple Gods (although they can be said to be part of one Absolute being called Brahman) and Hindus also believe in reincarnation and karma.

As I said previously, Hinduism has survived for so long because it is flexible and willing to listen to new teachers and adjust its practices and beliefs according to new teachings. This is why I believe it will still survive when the Imam Mahdi comes and offers his teachings, if any.

Muslims as your post indicates seem to believe that they know exactly what will happen when the Imam arrives and are very sure he will not say anything that will surprise them.

However, my personal belief is that the Imam Mahdi will indeed offer new teachings and correct mistakes if there are any in the beliefs of all existing religions without insisting that anyone convert to a different one. I am not sure Muslims or Christians are ready for this kind of new teaching or any correction to their dogmas.

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Re: Sanathana Dharma - will this continue its record of longivity?

**well we can say it's going to be new teachings for people thouse who dont believe or know islam. correct mistakes... 200% yes.

**

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Re: Sanathana Dharma - will this continue its record of longivity?

That may be true, but some things may be quite different from what you expect.

The best thing is to keep am open mind so that one is not surprised or disappointed. The point I was trying to make is that Hindu allegiance is more to God and to the Avatar than it is to some dogma or to some book.

For instance, imagine the effect on Christians - they have spent 2000 years believing that Jesus is the Son of God, second to no one except God himself, and then they find out that the Imam Mahdi is considered his superior! This new knowledge will almost make the whole Christian religion collapse.

In the same way, Muslims should also not be shocked if they received some similar surprise (perhaps not as big).

I have no doubt Hindus will also learn something new, but whatever it is they will be able to handle it better than most of the others.

Just noticed, that you had some some additional comments inside the quotes, so editing the post to address those:

Again your conviction that things will happens exactly as in the hadiths, that the Imam will not say anything new that deviates from current beliefs, confirms what I say about the rigidity of Muslim beliefs - this makes the religion and its followers very vulnerable. Any new teachings that deviate from current beliefs or dogmas, differ from the hadiths, maybe even from the holy Koran will create a huge crisis and division in the religion - there is very likely to be a lot of bloodshed.

I don't think there is any need to discuss Hindu Gods or Avatars- Muslims and Christians already assume that they are false Gods - so why don't we wait until the Imam comes and gives his opinion about Hindu Gods? I think he will be here soon in the next 2-3 years and again he may surprise you quite a lot.

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Re: Sanathana Dharma - will this continue its record of longivity?

hi roshan, sorry that last post of mine went haywire so i am posting it again below. please go through it an reply in full. thank you.

**hi Roshan,

sorry but don’t agree on the 1st part (no except it to happen exactly the same). because the references given in my post are from Hadiths and judging from your posts i am sure what is hadiths and its authenticity and importance in Islam....**
who were these spiritual teachers and where did they get their spirituality from, were they humans or supernatural beings powerful than others, so on and so forth? what is the concept of GOD as per Hindu believe, mind you i am not asking about what is practiced but the believe on bases of the scriptures.

**why Hinduism have survived for so long… I will reserve my opinion to a little later…

will not be surprised because all this is already there in our scriptures (Quran and Hadiths). there is no changing them.. so what the Imam is going to teach or reteach and re-implement is just going to be Islam. it is going to be the same because the religion was completed 1400 years ago by the Prophet (p.b.u.h) and addition or subtraction to the religion is just not excepted.

well we can say it's going to be new teachings for people those who don’t believe or know Islam. correct mistakes... 200% yes.**

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Re: Sanathana Dharma - will this continue its record of longivity?

[quote="mdroshan"]

That may be true, but some things may be quite different from what you expect.

well when it comes to Islam there are no shades of Gray... the only shades we will follow / believe is what is there in Qur'an and hadith. and it is already written and there was is and never will be any change to it...

it's good to keep an open mind, but if it goes against the religion then one is outside the circle of believe.

Christians have always known about coming of Imam, they didn’t wait till percent day to find out about him. as all these predications were made by our prophet 1400 years ago and christens were there and so were the Jews, and others. what i mean is it's not going to be a new knowledge or a last minute thing.

believe u me there are end number of institute conducting a research on Qur'an and hadith in US, UK, all around the world and they are aware of what is going to happen. it's just a matter of time..

about your last two lines, i will wait till you reply to my previous post in full.

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Re: Sanathana Dharma - will this continue its record of longivity?

well when it comes to Islam there are no shades of Gray... the only shades we will follow / believe is what is there in Qur'an and hadith. and it is already written and there was is and never will be any change to it...

it's good to keep an open mind, but if it goes against the religion then one is outside the circle of believe.

Christians have always known about coming of Imam, they didn’t wait till percent day to find out about him. as all these predications were made by our prophet 1400 years ago and christens were there and so were the Jews, and others. what i mean is it's not going to be a new knowledge or a last minute thing.

believe u me there are end number of institute conducting a research on Qur'an and hadith in US, UK, all around the world and they are aware of what is going to happen. it's just a matter of time..

about your last two lines, i will wait till you reply to my previous post in full.
[/QUOTE]

I have added some thoughts to my earlier post.

But once again you say 'if it goes against the religion then one is outside the circle of believe'.

I am not saying it will go against a religion, but their may be some change.

One example I gave before - suppose the Imam says that reincarnation is a true fact (I am not saying he will, but suppose he does). Many Muslims will say this is a contradiction, this must be a false Imam and reject him immediately. But because of Imam's power and spirituality and the ability to perform many miracles, others will be forced to acknowledge his divinity. This will create a major crisis and maybe war between the two sides. Again lets not speculate about what the Imam will teach, let us just wait and see.

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Re: Sanathana Dharma - will this continue its record of longivity?

intresting thoughts.... yeah lets leave it for the time to come.

By the way, i did not get a reply to my previous post.... if you could please shed some light on that as well.

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Re: Sanathana Dharma - will this continue its record of longivity?

Just repeating from above (I don't think you saw my edit in previous post):
Again your conviction that things will happens exactly as in the hadiths, that the Imam will not say anything new that deviates from current beliefs, confirms what I say about the rigidity of Muslim beliefs - this makes the religion and its followers very vulnerable. Any new teachings that deviate from current beliefs or dogmas, differ from the hadiths, maybe even from the holy Koran will create a huge crisis and division in the religion - there is very likely to be a lot of bloodshed. The division will be between those accept the new Teacher as the Mahdi, follow his teachings and those who reject him/his teachings. The quarrel today maybe between Sunnis and Shias, but when the Mahdi appears it will be between brother and brother, father and son, even husband and wife maybe in separate camps.

I don't think there is any need to discuss Hindu Gods or Avatars- Muslims and Christians already assume that they are false Gods - so why don't we wait until the Imam comes and gives his opinion about Hindu Gods? I think he will be here soon in the next 2-3 years and again he may surprise you quite a lot.