Salman Taseer call him what he is: Shaheed!

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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Re: Salman Taseer call him what he is: Shaheed!

^ "a right cause" as you put it may not be so-right for some... so better be explicit just as you were in the other sentence. now any comprehension problem there?

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Re: Salman Taseer call him what he is: Shaheed!

for future reference, every opinion I state is MY opinion, or an opinion I happen to agree with. The hint is right there with the word 'I'. And before I forget, I should also break it to you: everything you say is also YOUR opinion, and it may not be shared by everyone. the point of posting on bulletin boards is to share YOUR opinion with us.

now that we have settled these banal points, hopefully you wont go around saying 'thats what you think' when I've told you what I think. Yes. Thats what I think. Move on. I wont expect you to preface your opinions with "just my opinion". Please dont expect it from me either.

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Re: Salman Taseer call him what he is: Shaheed!

Then why cloak in religious fervor? The simple point with wording him as a Shaheed is to denote his stature as reflected in faith not in a cultural or social sense. It is a religious distinction that is being applied of one of great stature who died for a great cause that supported in Islam. Objectively that is no were near the truth.

He died expressing his views. He died for his freedom of speech nothing more.

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Re: Salman Taseer call him what he is: Shaheed!

your comment would be worthy of a response if I had directed my post to you but thanks anyways

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Re: Salman Taseer call him what he is: Shaheed!

We cloak in religious language because it is the language that gives these actions and events enduring meaning. Might not be the only way, but it is the case in Pakistani society. As for shaheed and objectivity.. there is no objective truth accessible to us, it is always a subjective judgement. Lets say "Speaking the truth against intimidation" is a virtue in an Islamic sense. Since he died doing that, while knowing he could be killed for doing so, he is a shaheed. Whether or not his was a great cause is again a subjective assessment.

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Re: Salman Taseer call him what he is: Shaheed!

a post which is not quoting any previous post is simply directed to everyone my dear Zakk. call him shaheed as much as you want, if thats what floats your boat : )

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Re: Salman Taseer call him what he is: Shaheed!

First you state:

[quote]
It is reflective more on your point of view rather than a divine designation.
[/quote]

Then you state that it is because they give it enduring meaning. But why use religion to give that enduring meaning? Its hypocritical to attribute religious dogma to a secularists and then use the same ideology (faith) to give it false g*****ose meaning.

Its like saying Jinnah was an ardent Islamists because he created Pakistan and his views should be seen in the light of that action and based on that faith.

In reality Jinnah was in fact a Secularist who did not believe in religious dogma at all.

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Re: Salman Taseer call him what he is: Shaheed!

I think you misunderstood me. When I say its reflective of your point of view rather than a divine designation, that does not mean that I deny that shaheed is also a divine designation. Allah will decide who is shaheed and who is not. However, until that happens, anyone who uses the word shaheed is expressing his point of view, whether or not he acknowledges it as such, or insists that no this really is the divine status of that individual.

Religion can be both personal and subjective and acknowledged as such. I can find enduring meaning in someone's shahadat, while acknowledging that I am not Allah, and any claims I make about anyone's shahadat are limited to my knowledge of events.

People pejoratively referred to as 'Secularists' come in all stripes, and they are not the same as athiests.

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Re: Salman Taseer call him what he is: Shaheed!

A touching tribute ..

Remembering Salmaan Taseer

Thursday, January 06, 2011

Zafar Hilaly
Salmaan Taseer died doing what he wanted to do, to the best of his considerable abilities. In that sense he died with his boots on. There was no other way that he would have wanted to go. And he would have wanted to be mourned, as much as he will be in the days to come, not only by his friends but the people – that mythical horde which some of us, the privileged, profess to serve but which so few of us get a chance to serve; or rather, make that chance happen, Salmaan Taseer did.

Salmaan Taseer was the epitome of a good politician. His sense of timing was exquisite. He knew when to fight, what to fight about and when to get others to fight, as he stepped back and enjoyed their discomfiture. It was all part of politics; no hard feelings were involved. He loved turning the tables on his opponents. The recent caper of his disappearance to Dubai and sudden appearance after his opponents had swallowed the bait and yelled foul was right up his street. It was a made-by-Salmaan sting operation.

Salmaan wanted to be in the thick of things. He loved the cut and thrust of debate. The roar of the crowd gave him a rush, the likes of which, he once told me, was a high like no other. But it wasn’t just that which he craved. He wanted to make a difference, and he was convinced that he could. And by the time he was killed, he had finally succeeded in carving out for himself a position of relevance to the life of a people, of a province and a country, which he loved.

Not for Salmaan the proverbial villa in Tuscany and a life of the indolent rich, which he could well afford. He actually seemed to prefer the company of the unwashed; the cries of the hawkers and their coarse language excited him, it made him feel at home. His oneness with them never embarrassed Salmaan, the tycoon. And he appeared almost grateful when they treated him as one of their own. If he was ever scared, it was that the poor may set him apart merely because of his wealth. His thoughts were focused on their welfare. And yet he was no bleeding-heart liberal who shed tears at what fate had visited on some. You make your own fate. Get up, dust yourself off and fight, was the message he had for those who came to him for sympathy, I made it, and so can you.

What drew us, his friends, to Salmaan, and what we considered his greatest virtue, was, to his adversaries, his greatest fault, and that was his fearlessness, his irreverence for authority, his “in your face” approach, to say things as he saw them, bluntly and incisively, and never to beat about the bush. This often got him in trouble and finally cost him his life. But it would have been intolerable for Salmaan to live otherwise or, frankly, care. “You live once and you are dead forever” might have been his favourite saying. And that is how he lived. Such was his lust for life that he regarded sleep as an enemy because it robbed him of the opportunity to do more. He was indefatigable.

I first met Salmaan in England in 1962. I was at university and he was doing his articles to become a chartered accountant. He had to make do and live within a paltry stipend. I was better off because my father was posted in London, and hence Salmaan and others were frequently fed at our home. We met frequently, and later also in Lahore where we both found ourselves.

I recall being invited by him to spend a week end at his mother’s small flat on Golding Road in Lahore. There was one bed and, as I was his guest, he offered it to me while he slept on the floor. It was a cold winter night and the floor could not have been comfortable, but not for a moment did Salmaan lose his bonhomie. In fact, as I climbed into bed, I asked jokingly what he was “climbing” into. “A much bigger bed than yours,” was the prompt reply, “I have the whole floor.”

Salmaan’s toughness, his ability to withstand physical discomfort was pushed to the limits when he was imprisoned by Nawaz Sharif in the Lahore Fort in the late eighties. His cell consisted of a hole punched into the concrete. He asked his warder for one book – the Holy Quran, in English translation. He studied the Quran for the entire three weeks that he was held in solitary confinement, while stretched out on the floor. He read every word and page over and over again. And one can be sure that by the time he emerged he knew more about the Quran and Islam than his murderer. It is there that he decided that, while he would take his coat from the tailor, he would not take his religion from the mullah. His own take on the Quran and Sunnah, which he had studied and absorbed, sufficed for him. He was confident that he had got the meaning right, and we know now that he did.

Of all the benefits that virtue confers on us, said Montaigne, the contempt of death is one of the greatest. Almost every action of Salmaan manifested that contempt. He actually flaunted his ability to go where he would unarmed, unguarded and unprotected. And actually he was right again, because in the final analysis he was killed by the most unlikely assassin, his own bodyguard, against whom no amount of security could work.

Salmaan Taseer would admit in his candid moments that Pakistan was in trouble. Hypocrisy, greed and deceit fuelled by incompetence had brought it to its current sorry pass. It worried him that in some of our cities there were many mosques but very few schools, factories and workshops. Surely, God is to be found in your heart, he once said, and not only in the mosque. But the answer, he used to say, is not to opt out but opt in. Not to flee but to stay. Nor, in his view, was something so wrong with Pakistan that only a miracle could fix it.

Well, he tried. Did he succeed? We don’t know, but what we do know is that Salmaan Taseer gave his life in attempting to, and no one can ask for more.

The writer is a former ambassador. Email: [email protected]

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Re: Salman Taseer call him what he is: Shaheed!

In essence you are taking a religious doctrine and applying it as an individual view point? While doing so in a manner which is against its original intentions and true meaning? Wow. With that logic, you would be supporting people who term the Taliban Shaheed because it is their prerogative to define the matter as they deem fit since it is an individual view point.

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Re: Salman Taseer call him what he is: Shaheed!

Yes.

[quote]

While doing so in a manner which is against its original intentions and true meaning?

[/quote]

No. Against the 'original intentions' and 'true meaning' only per your judgement. Neither you nor I are in a position to definitively determine true meaning any more than the other.

[quote]

Wow. With that logic, you would be supporting people who term the Taliban Shaheed because it is their prerogative to define the matter as they deem fit since it is an individual view point.
[/QUOTE]

Merely because it is an individual viewpoint doesnt mean that I also cannot find it wrong :)

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Re: Salman Taseer call him what he is: Shaheed!

Ah I get it. Its the old "everything is an individual viewpoint" defense. Fair enough. To that there is in fact no retort.

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Re: Salman Taseer call him what he is: Shaheed!

Can I judge as well please?

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Re: Salman Taseer call him what he is: Shaheed!

everyone can judge and everyone can have their point of view. just dont get hurt when it isnt acknowledged as God's own truth.

to your point Archangel, Im surprised it took you this long to figure out that I am saying its an individual viewpoint... given that my first reply to you was:

[quote]

Nobody is really shaheed when you or I say someone is shaheed. It is reflective more on your point of view rather than a divine designation. Taleban are not shaheed because the 'Islamic' government they want to bring to power is NOT an Islamic government in my eyes. Salman Taseer is a shaheed because he died for a right cause.
[/quote]

Also note that I do not think that individual viewpoints cannot be debated and meaningfully agreed and disagreed upon. Merely that the sphere of subjectivity is extended when it includes you and me, it is not escaped from.

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Re: Salman Taseer call him what he is: Shaheed!

Fair enough.

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Re: Salman Taseer call him what he is: Shaheed!

to return to Zakk's point and to link it to my posts:

[quote]

i hope those who believe in what he died for, at least online, use the word Shaheed.

[/quote]

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Re: Salman Taseer call him what he is: Shaheed!

:k:

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Re: Salman Taseer call him what he is: Shaheed!

Short but very detailed reply :lajawab:

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Re: Salman Taseer call him what he is: Shaheed!

By this definition of yours that Qadari fella will be shaheed as well - As he is going to be prosecuted or sentenced for something he believes :)

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Re: Salman Taseer call him what he is: Shaheed!

^Exactly.