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This phrase is used numerous times in the Qur'an and at all other places accepted to mean "establish prayers" and not "will establish prayers" in it's meaning or connotation.
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Ibrahim says: salaams to all
My dear devils advocate!
Scripture is not understood on the basis of one passage or some surahs. One need to digest and get the essense for better understanding . There is a primary purpose for revelation and that is to establish prayers (worship of the One TRUE Creator of mankind) Do you think , you can understand this some time soon?
As such when Moses was commanded to establish Salat on his very FIRST meeting with Allah (swt) what do you THINK, all other prophets would have been commanded to do?
SO THINK! Don’t just try and translate words and try to conceive on your own, based on you whims and fancies. What I am saying is that prayers must be established, but that verse you quoted is with regards to the good news, the good news being given to those ** who will establish prayers ** ! comprende?
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Readers may read Volume 1, Book 8, Number 345 for themselves and judge if it gives us such information.
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Ibrahim says : Are you claiming, Muslims base their understanding on just one hadith? Or do you suppose they have a wealth of information, that they can study and from it derive the essence of their understanding?
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As for Qur'an's literary style, I think anytime Allah wants us to know that the standing up or aqeemu is for prayer He adds Salata with it. Inserting the word prayer on one's own is being a little presumptious.
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Ibrahim says : YOU THINK???? Did you by any chance have a meeting with Allah (swt) to know what is presumptuous and what is not?
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The verse still proves that (aqeem-us-salata comes later in the verse). I can't use "standing in the night" to my benefit and call it Salat because it's not. It's the recitation of the Qur'an as proven by the context and the choice of words.
My stance hasn't changed. We cannot let extra qur'anic texts influence our interpretation of Allah's verses. To emphasize my point I do need to address this particular hadith as it's topical. Will not go into an evaluation of all hadiths in general, so fear not.
Avoiding questions? The verse specifically repeats the oft-repeated aqeemus salata but you choose to close your eyes and treat this one instance differently, on the basis of a hadith whih presents Allah as some greedy street peddler (naoozobillah) trying to shove his product and then gives in to haggling! Amazes me how easily we digest these blasphemous narrations without even pondering!
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Ibrahim says: hello darling! Cut the nonsense and don’t try to talk your way out of it!
PA, Your FIRST argument was:-
1) salat was enjoined even before surah 17 ( trying to make a mockery of the hadith)
2) For which you try to use the command given to Moses (pbuh) and commands to pray
My rebuttal was:-
1) Yes! Salat had been performed even before Islam was reestablished in Arabia
2) Yes! Salat was performed by the Prophet (pbuh) at will
3) Yes! Salat was performed at will by those following the Prophet (pbuh) even before surah 17 ( no fixed times for it performance until surah 17)
4) Only after surah 17, the 5 daily prayers in fixed times came into play in Islam, as confirmed by the hadiths as well as written in surah 17 itself
Now you current ploy seems to be:-
1) The hadith sounds cheap
Ibrahim says: instead of excepting the fact that you fumbled, you are now trying to argue about the hadith.
You know what your problem is honey?
1) Scriptures and sacred texts has allegorical as well as clear matters in them.
2) People with knowledge go for the clear message not get stuck on the allegorical content
Thus, had you understood the hadith, the essence of that hadith was 5 prayers were fixed for Muslims after that event …..do I need to repeat this my darling?
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I have tried to negate the concept of the Rakat itself which is why it's filed under the Myth section.
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Ibrahim says : what??? You mean you ( YES! YOU) decided there can be no rakats, even though it had been enjoined on Muslims by the Prophet of Islam??
Did you read surah 4:102??? , did your mind not wonder as to why the Prophet had to finish his prayer with TWO prostrations ( two rakats) and half the congregation had to take turns doing a single prostration behind the Prophet and subsequently complete the other rakat on their own?
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Salat is about establishing a link with Allah and remembering him, not specifying, counting or limiting how many times you sit and stand.
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Ibrahim says: You mean , that was all your mind can conjure as per your whims and fancies? Or do you suppose the Prophet (pbuh) lacked wisdom and you after 1423 years became enlightened in such matters which other Muslims had failed to understand from the beginning???
Here read!
4:101 When ye travel through the earth ** there is no blame on you if ye shorten your prayers for fear the unbelievers may attack you:** for the unbelievers are unto you open enemies.
how does one shorten or lengthen a salat, if it did not had anything to do with rakat? ( b*(newly added) *
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I'll ask you a better question, why did the believers offer one rakat as you'd like to call it instead of two as per your claim?
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Ibrahim says: what??, The followers did not offer just One rakat, they finished it with two on their own, SILLY YOU! NOT EVERYTHING IS MENTIONED IN THE QUR’AN, that is why people who reject hadiths, end up making a mockery of themselves??
THINK! What was the reason the Prophet (pbuh) had to lead, why can’t they pray on their own in two separate groups?
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And a better one.. why do you offer four now instead of two per your claim??
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Ibrahim says; LOL! All these questions because you fumbled and never realized that rakats were mentioned in the Qur’an! ** And you made a fool of yourself when you denied its existence in salat! **
Darling! You see, that particular prayer was not the normal prayer but a prayer made in fear , meaning to overcome their fear , they prayed for strength, to overcome their enemy. So, do not be under the impression that it was their fard prayer , which had 4 or 3 or 2 rakats in Islam. ( at the same time fard prayers can also be done in this way, where FEAR or danger is eminent.)** ( newly added) **
Like I said, people who are blind of hadiths, wonder around in the darkness and when they get to feel something they construct their ideas on it and end up making a fool of themselves.
Now answer my question:
Why did you dare contradict the Qur’an when you say you sincerely desire only to follow it??
I have placed in front of you an ayah , providing details of two prostrations for the completion of one salat, how dare you reject it?
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Do you seriously think those who wrote that stuff did otherwise?? I can pick any verse in the Qur'an and then concoct a story to go with it, why would i have to read them? It's easy and people buy anything that has "The Prophet said" in front of it and these narrations prove it.
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Ibrahim says : darling your foolishness is beyond me, so I give you a chance to concoct your own version for surah 4:102, so tell us what is your version?
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Out of fear?? of what?? and btw I have read them before discarding them. I was once a misguided soul not quite different than yourself.
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Ibrahim says; You mean you don’t even know what your fear is? Your fear honey is that you have gone against Islam and its teachings and you try to reconcile yourself and your actions by trying to cast doubts on the truth/Islam . What you do not understand is that the angels curse all those who deny the truth and slander the pious in ignorance and arrogance.
Allah (swt) knows best
Was salaam
Ibrahim
** you have built castles in the AIR, now put some foundations for them **
[This message has been edited by Ibrahim (edited May 15, 2002).]