Salat as found in the Qur'an

Society Religion & Philosophy
21

PA

I believe you have now completed your Salaat.

There should be no more additions or subtractions to come from you. Please spare us!!!

Your summary:

Stand Up
Recite Takbeer and Al Fatiha and then complete the Salaat by a
Prostration.
Done.

However, what you failed to realise is that the Surahs you used to back up your arguments (if you can call it that), were revealed at differnt periods and different times, dealing with different issues.

Let's take a look:

Al-Isra was revealed on the occasion of the 'night journey' Mi'raj, which took place a year before Hijrah to Yathrib. This is where you get your Takbeer from!

Al-Fatiha was the first complete Surah revealed to the Prophet PBUH after the revelation of certain parts of Surahs Al Haq, Al Muzzammil and Al Muddaththir. This where you get your recital from.

An-Nisa. The period of revelation seems to be between the end of Hijrah 3 to the end of Hijrah 6. The exact date is unknown, but we may fairly determine the period by referring to the commandments of certain events. For instance, the discourse of ayats 1 to 28 dealing with the division of inheritance of the deceased persons and the rights of orphans and the widows was revealed in Hijrah 3, after the battle of Uhud which rendered fatherless many a Muslim.

We also learn that the commandment regarding Salaat in war time was revealed during the expedition of Dhat al Riqa, which took place in Hijrah 4. Hence the ayats 101 to 104 were revealed on that occasion. Again, we know that Banu Nadir were exiled from Medina in Rabi al Awwal of Hijrah 4, and therefore the discourse of ayats 44 to 57 which contains the last warning to the Jews in ayat 47 must have been revealed sometime before their expulsion!!

Similarily, the permission to perform Tayammum for ablution was revealed during the expedition of Banu al Mustaliq, which took place in Sha'ban of Hijrah 6. Hence the discourse of ayats which contain the Tayammum ruling must have been revealed during that period!!!!

So you see, if we were to accept your explanation concerning Salaat. The first Muslim Believers would be performing different acts of worship, at different periods over a period of 23 years in line with revelations.

The Salaat would by no means be complete and all the ayats that deal with prayer would then become null and void. Thus rendering the Qur'aan as a fabrication and not the Word of God!!!!

I'm not saying this, you are in your analogy of Salaat.

Once again, I urge you to read, digest and ponder over all the ayats that confirm Salaat to be a combination of the postures I previously stated and NOT your misunderstandings.

Finally:

062.009 O ye who believe! When the call is proclaimed to prayer on Friday (the Day of Assembly), hasten earnestly to the Remembrance of Allah, and leave off business (and traffic): That is best for you if ye but knew!

Are the 1.2 Billion or so Muslims who harkened to the above ayat and pray totally different to the likes of you, WRONG and you RIGHT!

22

[quote]
Originally posted by Ace:
...
So you're saying, that you'll design your Salat by picking random Ayah's, since the ones you posted are in no fluent order?
[/quote]

its easy to "design" your own prayer when you already have a "design" (from Prophet PBUH) and then (partly) justify it from Quran.

Is there no mention of "ruku" in Quran?

May Allah SWT guide us all towards right and help us follow the right

23

pakistani abroad

what on earth are you on about?

24

For those who don’t know what PA is saying:

PA follows a creed originated in 1980’s by the guy(s) named, Rashid Khilafa and Ghulam Ahmed Perviez. They believed that there was no need for SUNNAH(way of the prophet as an example) for the Muslims and QURAn was JUST ENOUGH FOR EVERYTHING, including how to perform prayer, hajj, zakat, etc. PA denies any association with the cult(quranites, khalifites, 19ners, perviezites, etc.) but he follows their creed with passion nonetheless.

Now, what he is talking about is from quran but totally misleading and has no approval of the PRophet. We are SURe that it was not done by the prophet, as Quran says in several verses that WE MUST follow the prophet otherwise we will go astray.

[li]Say (O Muhammad): Obey Allah and the[/li]Messenger (Muhammad). But if they turn away, then Allah does not like the
disbelievers. (Aali Imraan 3:32)

[li]O you who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger (Muhammad) and render not vain your deeds. (Muhammad 47:33)[/li]
[li]Verily, We have sent you (O Muhammad) as a witness, as a bearer of glad tidings, and as a warner. In order that you (O mankind) may believe in Allah and His Messenger, and that you assist and honour him, and[/li](that you) glorify (Allah’s) praises morning and afternoon. (Fath 48:8 9)

[li]And whatsoever the Messenger/li gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from
it), and fear Allah. Verily, Allah is Severe in punishment. (Hashr 59:7)

[li]Say (O Muhammad to mankind): If you (really) love Allah then follow me (i.e. accept Islamic Monotheism, follow the Qur’an and the Sunnah), Allah will love you and forgive you of your sins. And Allah is Oft [/li]Forgiving, Most Merciful. (Aali Imraan 3:31)

[li]Obey Allah and obey the Messenger,[/li]but if you turn away, he (Messenger Muhammad) is only responsible for the
duty placed on him (i.e. to convey Allah’s Message) and you for that placed on
you. If you obey him, you shall be on the right guidance. The Messenger’s duty
is only to convey (the message) in a clear way (i.e. to preach in a plain way).
(Nur 24:54)

His argument doesn’t stand a chance when it comes to discussing SUNNAH(way of the prophet) and here he is giving fatwas on what MUSLIMS SHOULD pray and HOW should they pray. I guess, all those millions who lived before 1980s are in hell because they didn’t know how to read namaz according to what islam says and they just didn’t understand QURAN!!! They despise way of the prophet(makes you think if they really love him) as if it was very different from Quran!!!

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/rolleyes.gif

[This message has been edited by Serial Guppy (edited May 06, 2002).]

25

I think Pakistani must of confused himself so much that even he thinks we are in the month of December!!!

26

Forwarding email

Time: Mon, 06-May-2002 12:03:06 GMT

You want to know how to pray as prophet mohammed [Bless of Allah
upon him] manner of performing prayer(it means Prophet Mohammed
Sunnah in Doing Prayer).

So click here : http://arabi-flash.tripod.com/PrayerEnglish/ and ** this link for
prayer with sound : ** http://arabic-flash.tripod.com/IslamWay/AdvSound.html for any

comment send to : [email protected]

27

MOHTARAM PA BHAEE:

Aap ka post kiya huwa tareeqa e namaz ( salaat ) parh kar mujhay urdu ka aik muhawra yaad aagaya.

UZR E GUNAAH BAD TAR AZ GUNAAH.

Roughly iss ko english main aisay keh saktay hain :
To give an excuse for a sin is worst than the sin.

MOHTARAM BHAEE IBRAHEEM

SALAAT ki site share karnay k liye aap k shukrguzaar hain.
( kiyunkay iss main bataya huwa tareeqa hadeeth e rasool s.a.w. SALLU KAMA RAEE-TUMOONI USALLI kay ain mutabiq hai.)

huwe mar k ham jo Ruswa
huwe kiyuN na gharq e darya

28

PA: *waiting for the rest of it!

I got some more questions for you!

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

So basically we all pray differently and/or pray in the manner that is most convenient for us.

  1. Does that mean there are no congregational prayers? Jummah prayers?

  2. Khutbas (Friday sermons) never existed? OR are wrong?

  3. Can i be sitting and start my prayer by saying ‘Bismillah’ and going to sajdah first?

  4. Rather does the order that you pray in matter? B/c Quran doesn’t specify any order.

  5. All the sects like Sunni/Shia/Ahmedi etc. are wrong the way they pray in? Or are they acceptable because it suits us the best, which includes Sujood, Standing, glorifying Allah (SWT)?

“I put my trust in Allah, my Lord and your Lord! There is not a moving creature, but He has a grasp of its forelock. Verily, my Lord is on the straight path. (The truth)”
(11:55-56)

“…Indeed my prayer, my sacrifice, my living and my dying are for Allaah, the Lord of the worlds” (6:162)

[This message has been edited by Sadiaa (edited May 07, 2002).]

29

[quote]
Originally posted by Sadiaa:
**5. All the sects like Sunni/Shia/Ahmedi etc.

**
[/quote]

Assalam-o-alikum...
Sadiaa i would like to think upon what u just said.... Ahmedi/Qadiyani/Lahori are not Muslims, pls do not count them as just another Muslim sect...

thanks...

.::. ﷲ ﻼﺃ ﷲﺃ ﻶ .::.
Allah-o-Akbar

,_ ,
(O,O)
()
-"--"--- To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first, and call whatever you hit the target

30

whatever happened to PA? did answer question about "ruku"... are you going to ignore/dodge again?

May Allah SWT guide us all towards right and help us follow the right

31

Misconceptions Continued...

Rukoo

It has generally been understood as a physical action, but in the Qur'an the use is also allegorical in nature. Rukoo is used more like bowing ones will or similar. It does not necessarily mean bowing ones self physically.

[al-Mursalat 77:47] Woe on that day to the rejecters.

[al-Mursalat 77:48] And where it is said to them: Bow down (arkaoo), they do not bow down (la yarkaoon)

PakistaniAbroad: It's obvious that Allah is not talking about the rejecters of truth missing out a specific action in their Salat, but rather a refusal to bow down their wills to Allah or similar.

[al-Ma'idah 5:55] Only Allah is your Vali and His Apostle and those who believe, those who keep up prayers (aqeem us-salata and pay the poor-rate (yu-toon azzakata) while they bow. (rakioon)

PakistaniAbroad: Since Salat has already been mentioned in the verse the rakioon here must mean bowing ones will to Allah or similar.

When a physical action is meant, we'd find that the Qur'an uses a qualifier for the word.

[Sad 38:24] He said: Surely he has been unjust to you in demanding your ewe (to add) to his own ewes; and most surely most of the partners act wrongfully towards one another, save those who believe and do good, and very few are they; and Dawood was sure that We had tried him, so he sought the protection of his Lord and he fell down (kharran) bowing (rakiyun) and turned time after time (to Him).

PakistaniAbroad: Had rakiyun been a physical motion on it's own, no qualifier would have been necessary.

Similary asjidu has also been used various places with a metaphorical meaning

[al-Hajj 22:18] Do you not see that Allah is He, Whom prostrates (yasjudu) whoever is in the heavens and whoever is in the earth, and the sun and the moon and the stars, and the mountains and the trees, and the animals and many of the people.....

PakistaniAbroad: Now surely we do not see celestial and terrestrial bodies physically prostrating. But since Allah commands their every move and has power over them hence prostration has been used as a metaphor.

[Ha Mim Sajdah 41:37] And among His signs are the night and the day and the sun and the moon; do not prostrate (tasjudu) to the sun nor to the moon; and prostrate (asjudu) to Allah Who created them, if Him it is that you serve.

PakistaniAbroad: Once again, wherever we physically prostrate, we're indirectly prostrating in the direction of celestial bodies. However a metaphoric prostration or submission to Allah is what's being asked of us.

This also solves the age old mystery of Iblis not prostrating to Adam.

[al-Kahf 18:50] And when We said to the angels: prostrate to Adam; they prostrated but Iblis (did it not). He was of the jinn, so he transgressed the commandment of his Lord. What! would you then take him and his offspring for friends rather than Me, and they are your enemies? Evil is (this) change for the unjust

PakistaniAbroad: the bold portion holds the answer to the whole scenario where Iblis rejected the supremacy of Adam. It wasn't a physical prostration but a metaphoric way of expressing obedience and accepting Adam as superior and in charge since the Jinns had failed to establish peace on earth and control was wrenched away from them.

Hence many places where we'd see bowing and prostrating together and ALSO mention of worship and prayer they are DIFFERENT things. Prayer denotes worship, the act and bowing and prostrating is submitting one's will or acquiescing to Allah's power or similar.

One more thing needs to be clarified

[al-Fath 48:29] Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah, and those with him are firm of heart against the unbelievers, compassionate among themselves; you will see them bowing (rukka-un), prostrating (sujjadan), seeking grace from Allah and pleasure; their marks (i]seemahum*) are in their faces because of the effect of prostration (assujoodi); that is their description in the Taurat .....

PakistaniAbroad: Many people jump at this depiction and claim these are physical prostrations and have even made the marks on the forehead a physical distinction. So what if some companion used a softer cloth to physically prostrate??? how would they get their marks then??

Let's study another verse:

[Muhammad 47:29] Or do those in whose hearts is a disease deem that Allah will not bring to light their (secret) hates?

[Muhammad 47:30] And if We would, We could show them unto thee (Muhammad) so that thou shouldst know them surely by their marks (be seemahum). And thou shalt know them by the burden of their talk. And Allah knoweth your deeds.

PakistaniAbroad: Wait a minute?? so those in whose hearts have a disease also have marks on their face??? that makes it a little too hard to separate the good guys from the bad guys doesn't it??

In light of this cross reference it's prudent to surmise that the use of marks on the face is again allegorical.

Continued ....(thanks to everyone for their patience so far, i'd try and complete this soon and then tackle the questions inshallah)

32

[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
*.....
*
[/quote]

is there anything that terminates wudhu? anything terminates salaat?

May Allah SWT guide us all towards right and help us follow the right

33

Be patient. The knower of all secrets of Quran, the all understanding of Quran and its deep, secret meanings, PA will tell us everything slowly.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/wink.gif

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hehe.gif

34

PA

Come on bro.

Your arguments seem to be getting more desperate by the day!

Not only have you totally avoided my responses concerning the different periods of Surah revelations, you have also attempted to give a lame argument concerning Rukoo (Bowing).

[al-Fath 48:29] Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah, and those with him are firm of heart against the unbelievers, compassionate among themselves; you will see them bowing (rukka-un), prostrating (sujjadan), seeking grace from Allah and pleasure; their marks (i]seemahum*) are in their faces because of the effect of prostration (assujoodi); that is their description in the Taurat .....

PakistaniAbroad: Many people jump at this depiction and claim these are physical prostrations and have even made the marks on the forehead a physical distinction. So what if some companion used a softer cloth to physically prostrate??? how would they get their marks then??

Is it even worth responding to such a feeble attempt?

Anyway, you've made your position very clear and approximately 1 billion of us have made our position very clear!

You can take a rest now and concentrate on your something else.

Salaam

35

*Misconceptions Continued .. *

Tasleem

We find no evidence from Qur'an of completing salat by turning our head either side and uttering "Assalam-o-Alaikum Va Rahmatullah"

Point to note is that who are these 'salams' being uttered to?? Allah?? are we sending Allah's blessings on Allah Himself?? If not then who?? Angels?? Aren't we forgetting something that the act of Salat is for Allah ALONE.

Tashud

Another part not found is the recital in arabic of "Attahyaat o lillah-e-...". The translation of this Arabic is as such:

"Greetings Prayers and the good things of life belong to Allah, Peace mercy and blessings of Allah be on you O Prophet... "

Notwithstanding that Salat is for Allah ALONE, Consider this.

Sectarians claim they offer Salat the same way the Prophet offered. Now imagine the Prophet sending blessings on himself!!!!!!!

The next portion of recital is sending blessings on the Prophet and Prophet Ibrahim. Once again it fails the Qur'anic principle of Salat for rememberance of Allah ALONE and leaves us confused how the Prophet was supposed to be sending blessings on himself.

Salat = Prayer

Another misconception is that one is to ask Allah of his favours in Salat. Although asking something of Allah ALONE is a way of remembering Him, it still isn't the focal point of Salat. Salat is a link. It's enjoined on Believers to remember Allah and establish their contact with Allah on a daily basis. It prohibits from evil and vice. Hence insisting that without reciting long prayers in Salat the Salat isn't complete is an incorrect assertion.

Conclusion

  1. Salat is for Allah ALONE
  2. Salat is for remembering Allah ALONE
  3. Salat prohibits from evil and vice
  4. When believers rise up for Salat, they should
  • Wash their face and their hands as far as the elbows
  • Wipe their heads and feet to the ankles
  • If they are under an obligation to perform a total ablution, then wash themselves.
  1. The position of Salat is a standing and stationary position.
  2. One must understand what they say in their Salat.
  3. Seek Allah's protection from Shaitan
  4. Call on Allah by any name, Allah or Rahman, because all the beautiful names are His
  5. Salat is to be recited in a moderate tone. Not a very raised voice nor silent.
  6. Say "alhamdulillah allazi lum yattakhiz valadan valam yakullahu shareekun filmulki valam yakullahu valiyum min azzul"
  7. Proclaim Allah's greatness and magnify Him. (This could be any verses from the Qur'an selected on the basis of their poignancy in poclaiming His greatness, magniying and glorifying Allah).
  8. Praise Allah. (once again any relevant verses can be selected from within the Qur'an to praise Allah)
  9. Salat is completed with prostrating.

Such is the simplicity of Salat given to us by Allah. However man is really an argumentative creature and will always try and complicate things..

I end by giving an example from the Qur'an about how Allah teaches us what mistakes were comitted by earlier generations.

[al-Baqarah 2:67] And when Musa said to his people: Surely Allah commands you that you should sacrifice a cow; they said: Do you ridicule us? He said: I seek the protection of Allah from being one of the ignorant.

PakistaniAbroad: Notice the simple instruction by Allah to people of Moses to sacrifice a cow.

Now let's see what these arrogant people did to such a simple and easy to carry out instruction.

[al-Baqarah 2:68] They said: Call on your Lord for our sake to make it plain to us what she is. Musa said: He says, Surely she is a cow neither advanced in age nor too young, of middle age between that (and this); do therefore what you are commanded

[al-Baqarah 2:69] They said: Call on your Lord for our sake to make it plain to us what her color is. Musa said: He says, Surely she is a yellow cow; her color is intensely yellow, giving delight to the beholders.

[al-Baqarah 2:70] They said: Call on your Lord for our sake to make it plain to us what she is, for surely to us the cows are all alike, and if Allah please we shall surely be guided aright.

[al-Baqarah 2:71] Musa said: He says, Surely she is a cow not made submissive that she should plough the land, nor does she irrigate the tilth; sound, without a blemish in her. They said: Now you have brought the truth; so they sacrificed her, though they had not the mind to do (it).

PakistaniAbroad: Notice how each time they asked Musa to go back to Allah to find out what the cow should look like, the criteria got increasingly difficult.

Allah gives us a hint of their intentions when He tells us that these people had not the mind to do it and argued about a simple enough instruction from Allah.

Let's not be like the arrogant and argumentative people like the followers of Moses. Let's accept Qur'anic verses on how to offer Salat as they are and reconcile our salat with it.

Allah Knows Best.

[This message has been edited by PakistaniAbroad (edited May 11, 2002).]

36

PA, I will really appriciate it, if you copy/paste all your parts of this thread & then paste it in a new one. Request this thread to be closed.

I would like to print it out, read it, verify your refrence & then formulate some questions.

My intentions are of learning, not to question to argue pointlessly. :)

37

Response to Questions

AbdulMalick

I’m afraid I do not know for sure what their method of praying was. However one thing is for sure from the Qur’an that Prayer was enjoined on believers well before and was known too. Only it’s ‘purpose’ or ‘sanctity’ was lost by these generations.

[al-Anfal 8:34] And what (excuse) have they that Allah should not chastise them while they hinder (men) from the Sacred Mosque and they are not (fit to be) guardians of it; its guardians are only those who guard (against evil), but most of them do not know.

[al-Anfal 8:35] And their prayer before the House is nothing but whistling and clapping of hands; taste then the chastisement, for you disbelieved.

FlameZz

In case of fear, Allah allows believers to shorten their Salat. Notice the emphasis on shortening it.

Now tell me, if you are offering four rakats reciting a short surah in all, and then offer two rakats with long surah, which will take longer?

hence the misconception that shortening means halving of ‘rakats’ is misplaced.

One can magnify, glorify and praise Allah as much as they want in their Salat. In case of fear, one is allowed to shorten one’s Salat.

Ace

The purpose of this thread is to show that Salat IS mentioned in the Qur’an and if one were to refer to the Qur’an, they can find instructions on how to perform it. Just like all the other instructions are scattered throughout Qur’an and not in just one single chapter or a sequence of verses, one must study the whole Qur’an and ponder over it to find out where Allah mentions Salat and how.

sholay

sholay, you are trying to decipher one document by referring to another. How you find your “periods of revelation” is from extra Qur’anic sources. If we were to believe them entirely we need to first accept that they do not reconcile in the first place.

e.g. Ali Ibn Talib was of the opinion that Al-Fatiha is the very first revelation. As usual Bukhari and Muslims narrations disagree and say it’s the first full surah, but the first revealed verses are different.

I’ll leave that discussion to you sectarians to sort out. For me the religion was developing and morphing. Until the completion of revelation how the people of the time prayed was as much a part of history as other acts of those times. What we have today is the Qur’an which is the only reliable source of history as it’s unanimously agreed upon by ALL sects and even most non-Muslims.

Hence finding relevant verses in the Qur’an to reconcile your prayer with it isn’t a misunderstanding.

Here’s a small riddle for you regarding these periods of revelation reaching us through traditions.

According to the very famous (although ludicrous as usual) hadith by Abu Huraira, Salat was enjoined on the Journey taken by the Prophet to the Furthest Mosque. Now that would be the period of revelation of Surah Al-Asra which is accepted by you to have been the 50th surah to be revealed.

Now take a look at this:

[Ta Ha 20:14] "Verily, I am God: There is no god but I: So serve thou Me (only), and establish regular prayer (salata) for celebrating My praise.

PakistaniAbroad: Here we have Allah telling the Muslims to establish REGULAR prayer. You know very well that you believe Ta Ha was the 45th Surah to be revealed.. that makes it BEFORE Salat was even enjoined on believers as per Mr. Abu Huraira and the widely held belief of 1.8 billions Muslims.

Food for thought

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

totally different??? how different sholay?

  1. You perform ablutions
  2. You stand up to pray
  3. You call on Allah
  4. You glorify and praise him

What we disagree on is also not universally accepted.

Not all sects clasp hands or raise hands to ears. The salat of different sects is different which does tell us that there IS definitely confusion and contradiction in the way Salat is offered. and it’s not a monolithic 1.8 billion offering it’s salat one way.

Also the number of people on the wrong doesn’t make it right.. more Christians believe that Christ is the son of God.. do you think that makes it right just because more people believe in it?? They hang ornaments on trees on Christmas as a religious ritual and celebrate Easter with eggs.. All pagan rituals.. Now since billions do it.. is it all right??

[This message has been edited by PakistaniAbroad (edited May 11, 2002).]

38

PakistaniAbroad- The entire discussion boils down to the fact that you do not hold Ahadith in any esteem. It is however, well established in the minds of people here that Ahadith are an important source of guidance, (secondary only to the Quran), and we have checked the integrity of Ahadith by studying the process of collection and compilation.

You see, what really bugs me is the fact that the instructions for Salat are all over the Quran, so what am I supposed to do, gather pieces from here and there and them formulate a piece of worship however I please? Sounds ridiculous to me.

More than one historical scriptures indicate the fact that prayers were held in congregrations in the times of the Prophet(SAW). How could a congregration take place if I were to design my own Salat by picking up pieces from here and there?

[This message has been edited by Ace (edited May 11, 2002).]

39

[quote]
Originally posted by Ace:
***PakistaniAbroad- The entire discussion boils down to the fact that you do not hold Ahadith in any esteem.*
[/quote]

This post is not addressing Ahadith. This is not even discussing their authenticity. What we attempted was to find the topics on Salat in the Qur'an, lay them out and logically try to formulate a way to pray from it.

[quote]
You see, what really bugs me is the fact that the instructions for Salat are all over the Quran, so what am I supposed to do, gather pieces from here and there and them formulate a piece of worship however I please? Sounds ridiculous to me.
[/quote]

Why does it bug you if they are all over the place?? Isn't the whole Book of Allah to be read and understood?? Where did we take something that we pleased? What part of the argument do you have a problem with.. logically speaking.. not just disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing.

[quote]
More than one historical scriptures indicate the fact that prayers were held in congregrations in the times of the Prophet(SAW). How could a congregration take place if I were to design my own Salat by picking up pieces from here and there?
[/quote]

Historical narrations are just that.. Unverified and undocumented and heavily contested. The day Shias and Sunnis are able to reconcile on their hadith and their meanings, i'll start treating them a little more seriously.

And once again the Qur'an is a sea of information. Not everything is laid out in sequence. One has to dig deeper for answers. Maybe it was designed so that one would study it more. Dust your Qur'ans and ponder on the verses. There is much to learn.

40

PA

A very important fact that you have missed and have never considered is that when the Qur'aan was revealed, the Arab nations were barbaric and only versed in poetry!!

They were not mathematical geniuses and neither were they experts in literature.

The numerlogical algebra stance that the Submitters take concerning the number of units etc, only became known to man via Rashad this century. We still need to account for 1300 years or so!!

I'll leave that for you to answer.

Secondly, the Qur'aan was compiled in it's current format AFTER the death of the Prophet PBUH. The Surahs are not structered in the order of revelation.

The basis of your argument states that we have to search the Qur'aan here, there and everywhere in order to reach the Salaat explanations.

This in turn nullifies the very important ayats:

054.017 And We have indeed made the Qur’an easy to understand and remember: then is there any that will receive admonition?

054.022 But We have indeed made the Qur’an easy to understand and remember: then is there any that will receive admonition?

If it is for you to remember, why are you going to and fro!!!!

The fact still remains that if the A'Hadeeths were truly concocted (as u state) then why has their survival lasted 1400 years? The best Muslims were the early Muslims, which the Qur'aan also testifies to, would of surely got rid of the concoctions and adhered to the Qur'aan on it's own!!

Thirdly and more importantly, you cannot even confirm the age of the Qur'aan without refering to A'Hadeeth!!!

Finally, can you confirm if and when did the Prophet PBUH actually order his companions NOT to record his sayings, teachings and lifestyle!!

Remember, NO A'Hadeeth.