I have mentioned the Sunnah and I will stop at that. I will not enter into conjecture. You are either guided or misguided.
[quote]
Originally posted by a1shah:
**
More interestingly, there are Sunni reports in which the Messenger of Allah named these twelve members of his Ahlul-Bait one by one starting with Imam Ali (AS) and ending with Imam al-Mahdi (AS). (see Yanabi' al-Mawadda, by al-Qunduzi al-Hanafi).
**
[/quote]
Give me the Hadeeth refernces, otherwise the Messenger of Allah did not mention who the 12 are.
Also, unless you cannot read, it is not mentioned that the Calipha of the 12 will strech till the end of time. Rather eirther the hour will be established, OR there will be twelve.
[quote]
Originally posted by Alpha1:
**Firstly the authentic narrations:
- The twelve Caliph do not equate to the twelve Imams of the Ithna Athar ul Ashariya / Rafidah Shia.
**
[/quote]
You can only make this statement if you know who the 12 were. Otherwise, your statement is mere desperation.
So who were they ?
[quote]
Originally posted by a1shah:
**Alpha,
Is Islam still continuing ? Then we are being ruled by the 12 caliphs.
Also as the Prophet (PBUH&HF) suggested in the above traditions, those twelve Caliphs will cover till the day of resurrection.
And who says that the prophet (pbuh) did not mention who these 12 caliphs are ? **
[/quote]
Firstly you are saying that thee 12th Shia Imam is alive and is ruling us from his cave some 1000 or so years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Secondly you have to show me the hadith where our Nabi says who the 12 are
[quote]
Originally posted by a1shah:
** You can only make this statement if you know who the 12 were. Otherwise, your statement is mere desperation.
So who were they ?
**
[/quote]
This is now sickening, my 5 points are not narrations, you are now even twisting my words.
The narrations are authentic period.
My 5th statement states that the 12 mentioned in the sunnah are not the infalliable/immortal/worldly sustaining imams of the shia. Anyone can see that.
A1 Shah
I propose a task for you:
Give me the proof saying that the 12th Shia Imam is alive now some 1000 or so years and is ruling over th ummah, proof from the Sunnah.
Give me the proof that the 12 Caliph's names have been mentioned by the Nabi (saw), from the Sunnah
May Allah curse the liars, may he either guide them or break thier backs, and may he swipe them from this earth - Amen!
[This message has been edited by Alpha1 (edited August 28, 2001).]
Bro a1shah.....
I think you start a thread but don't read all posts.....
For you bro ibrahim's answer on previous page should have been sufficient, where he descibed in detail about the twisting of meanings of Hadits and narrations.
a1shah,
Shias believe that sunni ahadeeth books are not authentic and not valid. Then, why do you take ahadeeths from those books and present them in your favor? Seems pretty stupid to a person with little sense and will to just be a Muslim.
"I am not playing with a full deck!"
a1shah
You wanna know more about this all?!?
READ THIS
“kaisay na karta usko main pyar, uski haseen main sukh thay hazaar, bichar gayay hum dukh ki hay baat”
What a great reply…Man…you are defenately something
Brother a1shah asked you first!!!
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/wink.gif
Are you saying you don’t know???
Ibrahim says; You mean he lied first!!! ;}
than you lied second
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hehe.gif
BUT you have not read the thread and understood the meanings, did you?
{b] You claimed you knew, I did not!!!..got it?? **
IF you cannot produce the evidence for your claims, we know that you are a 100% liar, don’t we?
[quote]
Originally posted by Alpha1:
** Give me the Hadeeth refernces, otherwise the Messenger of Allah did not mention who the 12 are.
Also, unless you cannot read, it is not mentioned that the Calipha of the 12 will strech till the end of time. Rather eirther the hour will be established, OR there will be twelve.
**
[/quote]
Alpha,
I assume you are not deliberating acting naive, or is it true that you do not know what is meant by the "HOUR" ?
Digression has its limits.
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and tell you what the hour means. The establishment of the hour is the end of days, as the qur'an teaches us:-
[al-A`raf 7:187.7] They ask thee of the (destined) Hour, when will it come to port. Say: Knowledge thereof is with my Lord only. He alone will manifest it at its proper time. It is heavy in the heavens and the earth. It cometh not to you save unawares. They question thee as if thou couldst be well informed thereof. Say: Knowledge thereof is with Allah only, but most of mankind know not.
[al-An`am 6:31.14] They indeed are losers who deny their meeting with Allah until, when the Hour cometh on them suddenly, they cry: Alas for us, that we neglected it! They bear upon their backs their burdens. Ah, evil is that which they bear!
[al-An`am 6:40.16] Say: Can ye see yourselves, if the punishment of Allah come upon you or the Hour come upon you, (calling upon other than Allah) ? Do ye then call (for help) to any other than Allah ? (Answer that) if ye are truthful.
The 12 caliphs will rule over the ummat till the HOUR that Allah (swt) has established.
And ofcourse the shias know who the 12 caliphs are. They are those blessed souls of the progeny of the holy prophet (pbuh) whom the ummat strayed away from.
But more on that later.
My question: - Why doesn't the ahl-sunnat know who these 12 caliphs are ? Why do you mostly talk about the First Four Rightly Guided Caliphs ?
The prophet (pbuh) said 12, you chose 4.
Unless you do not know who they are, how do u expect to follow their guidance ?
Such admirable islamic manners. Wa wa.
[quote]
Originally posted by Alpha1:
** This is now sickening, my 5 points are not narrations, you are now even twisting my words.
The narrations are authentic period.
My 5th statement states that the 12 mentioned in the sunnah are not the infalliable/immortal/worldly sustaining imams of the shia. Anyone can see that.
A1 Shah
I propose a task for you:
Give me the proof saying that the 12th Shia Imam is alive now some 1000 or so years and is ruling over th ummah, proof from the Sunnah.
Give me the proof that the 12 Caliph's names have been mentioned by the Nabi (saw), from the Sunnah
May Allah curse the liars, may he either guide them or break thier backs, and may he swipe them from this earth - Amen!
**
[/quote]
This has now reached the height of ignorance. Shah, either answer the three or just carry on with the usual non-sense which I will now ignore.
Alpha,
You have a short memory.
I have explained to you what the HOUR means. You apparently did not think it meant much.
Everything in good time.
Before I waste my time with you, we need to be sure that you understand the hadith from yr sahihs.
Ahl-sunnat ignorance on this board has no limits.
Read back and see, the hour will be established (yaum al kiyama - judgement day) OR there will be 12 Caliph. One or the other.
This does not mean that the 12th Calipha will live a long age until the day of judgement. If you are seriously considering this then you are attributing the status to your 12th Imam of a deity.
[This message has been edited by Alpha1 (edited August 29, 2001).]
Why copy paste, waste energy if ppl will still stick to their “truth”.
Seems like you r amazed by your own answer…hmmm “Yeh maine kaise likh diya hai?”
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hehe.gif
“kaisay na karta usko main pyar, uski haseen main sukh thay hazaar, bichar gayay hum dukh ki hay baat”
Man…you defenately are something…I am speechless…
[quote]
Originally posted by Alpha1:
**Read back and see, the hour will be established (yaum al kiyama - judgement day) OR there will be 12 Caliph. One or the other.
This does not mean that the 12th Calipha will live a long age until the day of judgement. If you are seriously considering this then you are attributing the status to your 12th Imam of a deity.
[This message has been edited by Alpha1 (edited August 29, 2001).]**
[/quote]
If you have any sense of arabic grammer, that is an eloquent way of saying that the caliphate of the 12 caliphs will extend till the day of judgement.
And as far as being a diety is concerned, I guess you have no faith in Hazrat Issa (as), who is still alive and will return on the day of reckoning. Did the Ahmedis get to you ?
See boy, for you, 2 + 2 has to be 5.
Allah (swt), who is the Master of all creations, can do anything. Extending an Imam's (as) life till a time that He (swt) has appointed does not make the imam (as) a diety.