Sahih hadiths - the 12 Caliphs

Society Religion & Philosophy
1

Well,

it was interesting reading through the posts on licking fingers and all. Let’s try something a bit more intellectually stimulating now:

From the Sahih books, the following hadiths can be found:

In Sahih al-Bukhari (Arabic-English version), the tradition is as follows:

Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 9.329

Narrated Jabir Ibn Samura:

I heard the Prophet saying, “There will be twelve commanders (Amir).” He then said a sentence which I did not hear. My father said, the Prophet added, “All of them will be from Quraish.”

In Musnad Ahmad, the tradition is as follows:

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "There shall be twelve Caliphs

for this community, all of them from Quraish

Reference: Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v5, p106

In Sahih Muslim, the traditions are as follows:

Narrated Jabir Ibn Samura:

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: “The matter (life) will not end, until it is passed by twelve Caliphs.” He then whispered a sentence. I asked my father what the Prophet said. He said, the Prophet added: "All of them will be from Quraish.

Sunni references:

  • Sahih Muslim, Arabic version, Kitab al-Imaara, 1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia, v3, p1452, Tradition #5

  • Sahih Muslim, English version, Chapter DCCLIV (titled: The People are subservient to the Quraish and the Caliphate is the Right of the Quraish), v3, p1009, Tradition #4477

Again from Sahih Muslim:

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: “The affairs of people will continue to be conducted (well) as long as they are governed by the twelve men.”

Sunni references:

  • Sahih Muslim, Arabic version, Kitab al-Imaara, 1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia, v3, p1453, Tradition #6

  • Sahih Muslim, English version, Chapter DCCLIV (titled: The People are subservient to the Quraish and the Caliphate is the Right of the Quraish), v3, p1010, Tradition #4478

Also:

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "Islam will continue to be triumphant until there have been twelve Caliphs.

Sunni references:

  • Sahih Muslim, Arabic version, Kitab al-Imaara, 1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia, v3, p1453, Tradition #7

  • Sahih Muslim, English version, Chapter DCCLIV (titled: The People are subservient to the Quraish and the Caliphate is the Right of the Quraish), v3, p1010, Tradition #4480

With so many narrations in the sahihs regarding these 12 caliphs - who will rule until the end of time, I think we can spend atleast as much time on this as we have on whether you should lick yr fingers or not.

Who were these 12 caliphs ?

ws

2

QUOTE: Who were these 12 caliphs?

If only Muslims knew.......

3

I'm sure you can list out some names. Any takers ? Their rule must span till the end of time.

4

[quote]
Originally posted by a1shah:
**Well,

it was interesting reading through the posts on licking fingers and all. Let's try something a bit more intellectually stimulating now:
**
[/quote]

Mr Shah

You should realise that the Messenger of Allah (SAW) has given guidance in regards to every single aspect of human life, from birth right to death. His sunnah is the best sunnah to be followed.

If your 'intellect' is not stimulated by his narrations the surely your are one lost individual.

5

[quote]
Originally posted by a1shah:
I'm sure you can list out some names. Any takers ? Their rule must span till the end of time.
[/quote]

A question for you:

If their rule must span till the end of time, are you saying that Ali bin Abi Talib - may Allah be pleased with him, whome you attribute to being the first of your 12, do you say that his rule will span till the end of time?

Know that Allah the almighty will rule to the end of time.

6

Alpha,

Firstly, I'm not saying anything, the hadith is. Its from yr multiple sahih books.

And to clarify; the affairs of the people will be conducted under the rulership of these 12 caliphs; i.e during the time span that Allah (swt) gives them to rule.

So who are these 12 caliphs. Muslim, Bukhari, and Hanbal have noted this hadith so its authenticity must be atleast as good as the hadith posted earlier showing how a woman can give her milk to an adult to make him mehram.

You can start with Abu Baker. Not a problem. I just want yr opinion on who the other 11 are. Since the world is still in existence, the 12th caliph must be present - so who is he ?

7

[quote]
Originally posted by a1shah:
*Since the world is still in existence, the 12th caliph must be present - so who is he ? *
[/quote]

Then give me the narration that states that the 12th Imam will be present from the time the 11th passed away until the day of judgement? Some tens of hundred of years until now, and only Allah know when Judgement will come.

Remember:

Al-Baqarah (2):107

Know you not that it is Allâh to Whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth? And besides Allâh you have neither any Walî (protector or guardian) nor any helper.

8

Alpha,

I can bombard you with my beliefs but thats not the purpose of this thread.

I would simply like to know the position that ahl-sunnat take on this hadith. It has been recorded in your sahih books. And once again, I am quoting verbatim from yr sunni books.

You have a position on every other thing so I'm sure there's one here.

Let's not digress. Just post yr understanding of this hadith if you have one. If you don't have one, fair enough - but dare we attempt to find out ?

[This message has been edited by a1shah (edited August 27, 2001).]

9

[quote]
Originally posted by a1shah:
**Alpha,

I can bombard you with my beliefs but thats not the purpose of this thread.

I would simply like to know the position that ahl-sunnat take on this hadith. You have a position on every other thing so I'm sure there's one here.

Let's not digress. Just post yr understanding of this hadith if you have one.**
[/quote]

So that I may hold an understanding of this Hadeeth, may I please have its reference?

Note I ask you for the second time again.

10

References are posted below each hadith. Do yr own research.

11

Indeed you have, my apolagies.

Let me give you my response which will follow shortly.

[This message has been edited by Alpha1 (edited August 27, 2001).]

12

** Ibrahim says: salaams to all,

One must be careful when Brother a1shah posts/quotes hadiths or Qur’an verses, in my experience certain parts always seems to go missing or get altered **

BTW our brother forgot to post this two hadiths also from the same person ( meaning all of this are actually ONLY ONE HADITH ORIGINATING FROM THE SAME PERSON . which gave a CLEARER picture of the same hadiths

Sunan of Abu-Dawood Hadith 4266 Narrated by Jabir ibn Samurah

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: The religion will continue to be established till there are twelve caliphs over you, ** and the whole community will agree on each of them. ** I then heard from the Prophet (peace be upon him) some remarks which I could not understand. I asked my father: What is he saying: He said: all of them will belong to Quraysh.

Another hadith our brother omitted was :-

Sahih Muslim Hadith Hadith 4483 Narrated by Jabir ibn Samurah

It has been narrated on the authority of Amir ibn Sa'd ibn AbuWaqqas who said: I wrote (a letter) to Jabir ibn Samurah and sent it to him through my servant, Nafi', asking him to inform me of something he had heard from the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him). He wrote to me (in reply): I heard the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) say on Friday, the day on which al-Aslami was stoned to death (for committing adultery): ** The Islamic religion will continue until the Hour has been established, or ** you have been ruled by twelve Caliphs, all of them being from the Quraysh. I also heard him say: A small force of the Muslims will capture the white palace, the palace of the Persian Emperor or his descendants. I also heard him say: ** Before the Day of Judgment there will appear (a number of) imposters. You are to guard against them. ** I also heard him say: When God grants wealth to any one of you, he should first spend it on himself and his family (and then give it in charity to the poor). I heard him (also) say: I shall be your forerunner at the Cistern (expecting your arrival).

NOW TO COMPARE WHAT A1SHAH posted with what actually appears in those books.

[quote]
Originally posted by a1shah:
Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 9.329 Narrated Jabir Ibn Samura: I heard the Prophet saying, ** "There will be twelve commanders (Amir)." ** He then said a sentence which I did not hear. My father said, the Prophet added, "All of them will be from Quraish."
[/quote]

Now check out the original rendering:-

Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith Hadith 9.329 Narrated by Jabir bin Samura

I heard the Prophet saying, ** "There will be twelve Muslim rulers (who will rule all the Islamic world)."** He then said a sentence which I did not hear. My father said, "All of them (those rulers) will be from Quraish."

[quote]
a1shah wrote: - Sahih Muslim, English version, Chapter DCCLIV Tradition #4477

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: ** "The matter (life) will not end, until it is passed by twelve Caliphs." ** He then whispered a sentence. I asked my father what the Prophet said. He said, the Prophet added: "All of them will be from Quraish.
[/quote]

NOW COMPARE!

Sahih Muslim Hadith Hadith 4477 Narrated by Jabir bin Samura

I joined company of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) with my father and I heard him say: ** This caliphate will not end until there have been twelve caliphs among them. ** The narrator said : Then he (the holy Prophet) said something that I could not follow I said to my father : what did he say? He said : all of them will be from the Quraish

[quote]
a1shah wrote: - Sahih Muslim, English version, Chapter DCCLIV , Tradition #4478
The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "The affairs of people will continue to be conducted (well) as long as they are governed by the twelve men."

[/quote]

NOW COMPARE with the Original.

Sahih Muslim hadith hadith 4478 Narrated by Jabir bin Samura

I heard the messenger of Allah (pbuh) say: ** The affairs of the people will continue to be conducted (well) as long as they are governed by twelve man . ** Then Holy Prophet (pbuh) said words which were obscure to me. I asked my father : what did the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) say? He said All of them will be from Quraish.

A1shah: With so many narrations in the sahihs regarding these 12 caliphs - who will rule until the end of time, I think we can spend at least as much time on this as we have on whether you should lick yr fingers or not.

Ibrahim says: LOL!! all of them are originating from the same person so IT IS ONLY ONE HADITH but have been reported through many people

13

Mr Shah

Firstly, by your standards from your earlier posts, and from those posts of other Rafida/Isna Ashariya, you have ridiculed Sahih Bukhari as a compilation of fabrications. You have slandered its compiler the Imam Bukhari (ra) as a lier, and you have slandered the narraters who narrate the Hadith as liars also.

Using the intellect u often much talk about, what then is the reason of you mentioning this hadeeth? If I hate every the BIBLE says for example, as it contains Shirk, why then would I use it as a basis of my beliefs?

In other words, you cling to Bukhari when it suits your desires, alot like the 'fatwah shopping' that a brother mentioned in another thread.

You are trying to convince us that the 12 Imams mentioned in this one hadeeth are the tweleve imams of the Ithna Ashariya. Using your own reasoning this argument falls flat on its face.

I have yet to look at this narration properly and read how the companions of Allah's Messenger understood it, but suffice it to say that it is not what you want us to believe.
The Shia often use the sunnah and then twist the meanings to serve their own ends.

An example is that of the Imam Mahdi. In the Sahih it is narrated that he will be of the Quraish, with the same name as the Messenger of Allah (i.e. Abu Kasim, Mohammed al Hashimi al Qurayishi)it is also agreed upon that he is not yet amongst us, a fact backed by all the scholars based on the authentic sunnah. The Shia esp the Ithna Ashariya state that the Imam Mahdi is their 12th Imam and is the son of the 11th Shia Imam (cant recall his name) and is hiding in a cave all these years! This despite the fact that the family of the 11th Imam deny he ever had this son!! (Evidences from Shia books to follow.)

The existence (fictional creation) of the elusive 12th Shia Imam thus has made it easy for the Shia "narrators" to claim that they are in touch with the 12th imam which gives them a lisence to print dubious fatwas. A bit like the soothsayers who say they are in touch with the spirits.

[This message has been edited by Alpha1 (edited August 27, 2001).]

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hmmm wondering how far you’ll go “old woman” to proof this right…hmmm the funniest thing you surely accept this, but no other hadith.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/devil.gif

“kaisay na karta usko main pyar, uski haseen main sukh thay hazaar, bichar gayay hum dukh ki hay baat”

15

A1shah

Before I give you my opinion on this thread, can you please confirm the REAL reason why you decided to ask this question!!!

I more or less know the reasoning, but I would like to hear it from the 'horses mouth'.

16

Ali

I dont think that Mr Shah’s chosen gupface is an old woman. Its the Richard Nixon depiction from the Simpsons. Not that it matters really.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

17

Sisters, sisters,

Calm down my friends.

Instead of twisting and turning the meaning, why don't you just tell us what the hadith means.

Whether shias believe in the authenticity of the sahihs or not, whether the 12 caliphas refers to the 12 imams or not, why don't you just tell us what you understand by this hadith.

I've been amongst the likes of you for some time now and I'm not going to waste my time defending against yr useless accusations.

You sunnis are the best, the beautiful. Feel better. Now, let's stick to the topic and digress not.

We'll take Ibrahim's translation, for simplicity sake.

So, for all you simple-minded out there, I pose the question again; who are these 12 caliphs ?

Gosh, have to repeat myself a zillion times to get a simple answer.

Pathetic lot.

[This message has been edited by a1shah (edited August 27, 2001).]

18

Dont flatter yourself Mr Shah.

I will look into the proper Hadith as well as its Narrator, and its correct understanding. You will then get a reply.

And by the way, nothing I have posted is an accusation. These are genuine Rafidah beliefs.

19

[quote]
Originally posted by Ibrahim:
**** Ibrahim says: salaams to all,

One must be careful when Brother a1shah posts/quotes hadiths or Qur’an verses, in my experience certain parts always seems to go missing or get altered **

BTW our brother forgot to post this two hadiths also from the same person ( meaning all of this are actually ONLY ONE HADITH ORIGINATING FROM THE SAME PERSON . which gave a CLEARER picture of the same hadiths

Sunan of Abu-Dawood Hadith 4266 Narrated by Jabir ibn Samurah

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: The religion will continue to be established till there are twelve caliphs over you, ** and the whole community will agree on each of them. ** I then heard from the Prophet (peace be upon him) some remarks which I could not understand. I asked my father: What is he saying: He said: all of them will belong to Quraysh.

Another hadith our brother omitted was :-

Sahih Muslim Hadith Hadith 4483 Narrated by Jabir ibn Samurah

It has been narrated on the authority of Amir ibn Sa'd ibn AbuWaqqas who said: I wrote (a letter) to Jabir ibn Samurah and sent it to him through my servant, Nafi', asking him to inform me of something he had heard from the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him). He wrote to me (in reply): I heard the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) say on Friday, the day on which al-Aslami was stoned to death (for committing adultery): ** The Islamic religion will continue until the Hour has been established, or ** you have been ruled by twelve Caliphs, all of them being from the Quraysh. I also heard him say: A small force of the Muslims will capture the white palace, the palace of the Persian Emperor or his descendants. I also heard him say: ** Before the Day of Judgment there will appear (a number of) imposters. You are to guard against them. ** I also heard him say: When God grants wealth to any one of you, he should first spend it on himself and his family (and then give it in charity to the poor). I heard him (also) say: I shall be your forerunner at the Cistern (expecting your arrival).

NOW TO COMPARE WHAT A1SHAH posted with what actually appears in those books.

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by a1shah:
Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 9.329 Narrated Jabir Ibn Samura: I heard the Prophet saying, ** "There will be twelve commanders (Amir)." ** He then said a sentence which I did not hear. My father said, the Prophet added, "All of them will be from Quraish."
[/quote]

Now check out the original rendering:-

Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith Hadith 9.329 Narrated by Jabir bin Samura

I heard the Prophet saying, ** "There will be twelve Muslim rulers (who will rule all the Islamic world)."** He then said a sentence which I did not hear. My father said, "All of them (those rulers) will be from Quraish."

[quote]
a1shah wrote: - Sahih Muslim, English version, Chapter DCCLIV Tradition #4477

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: ** "The matter (life) will not end, until it is passed by twelve Caliphs." ** He then whispered a sentence. I asked my father what the Prophet said. He said, the Prophet added: "All of them will be from Quraish.
[/quote]

NOW COMPARE!

Sahih Muslim Hadith Hadith 4477 Narrated by Jabir bin Samura

I joined company of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) with my father and I heard him say: ** This caliphate will not end until there have been twelve caliphs among them. ** The narrator said : Then he (the holy Prophet) said something that I could not follow I said to my father : what did he say? He said : all of them will be from the Quraish

[quote]
a1shah wrote: - Sahih Muslim, English version, Chapter DCCLIV , Tradition #4478
The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "The affairs of people will continue to be conducted (well) as long as they are governed by the twelve men."

[/quote]

NOW COMPARE with the Original.

Sahih Muslim hadith hadith 4478 Narrated by Jabir bin Samura

I heard the messenger of Allah (pbuh) say: ** The affairs of the people will continue to be conducted (well) as long as they are governed by twelve man . ** Then Holy Prophet (pbuh) said words which were obscure to me. I asked my father : what did the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) say? He said All of them will be from Quraish.

A1shah: With so many narrations in the sahihs regarding these 12 caliphs - who will rule until the end of time, I think we can spend at least as much time on this as we have on whether you should lick yr fingers or not.

Ibrahim says: LOL!! all of them are originating from the same person so IT IS ONLY ONE HADITH but have been reported through many people **
[/QUOTE]

Ibrahim,

Twisting meanings are for the likes of you. I'm least bothered by such trivialities.

Instead of wasting time in accusations, why don't u use yr mighty translation and tell us what you sunnis understand by these 12 caliphs. Who were/are they ?

The fact that your most prominent sahih authors have included this hadith should be sufficient for you to approve of its authenticity. Having crossed that bridge, I suggest you move to the topic at hand.

I'm looking for some deep insight here people. Do u think we can do that ?

20

Alpha,

Putting your own stamp of authority on yr back doesn't make you correct.

Putting yr 4 imams together and calling the rest rafidis doesn't mean diddly besides stroking yr self-ego.

You do that. Research and come back to us. Good boy.

And do share with us about yr knowledge on rafidi beliefs as well.

Then I'll tell you whose the rafidi.

Now go, u have some research to do.