Sahih hadiths - the 12 Caliphs

[quote]
Originally posted by a1shah:
Alpha,
Putting your own stamp of authority on yr back doesn't make you correct.
Putting yr 4 imams together and calling the rest rafidis doesn't mean diddly besides stroking yr self-ego.
You do that. Research and come back to us. Good boy.
And do share with us about yr knowledge on rafidi beliefs as well.
Then I'll tell you whose the rafidi.
Now go, u have some research to do.

[/quote]

I suppose that resorting to attacking individuals is not limited to the companions, the scholars, now its anyone who questions the Shia. I suppose this is what is part of the Shia intellect you so often boast about.

It is part of the muslim character that when they do not know something, rather than second guessing they will seek the knowledge.

On the specific beliefs of the Rafidah, I will in due corse post another thread.

Inshallah I will respond.

A1shah,

Hadeeths you posted are fabricated and altered. Do something new for a change, will you?

You shias are so backward and superstitious(generally speaking and what kinda of teachings shia ahadeeeeths have) hundreds years from now you guys will be calling khomeni a prophet and wali and bowing to his grave and what have you.

Always bragging about word shia mentioned in Koraan, and bible and parsi scriptures! Always making up hadeeeths and attributing them to our beloved Prophet Muhammed(saw) just to get your own way around. Stop being a shia and start being a Muslim if you have any sense left.


"I am not playing with a full deck!"

Its useless trying to explain, its like trying to explain to rani.

Islam is not based on immamat or khilafat etc. So, as long as you follow the Quran and look at Mohammed(SAW)'s life as guidance(sunnah) you should be ok.
As far as contemplating whos right and whos wrong, it'll only take you away from the deen of Allah(SWT).

Try being muslims and stop this useless contemplation - its wont get you anywhere.

was a1shah on vacations when "muslims" were discussing "Hinduism"? or is it because that Shias want to discuss "Sunni vs Shia" only?

only Shia who participated in discussion with Hindus was bro ShahJahan. Now I can see bro Pagluu coming back, I think pretty soon Sheraz CT will also come back along with sis Farhina etc, since the 'Shia vs Sunni' conflict is HOT again.


We oughta be Changez like, don't we?

excellent observation, just changez like....

hey changez, I did take part in hindu-debate.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

Anyway, a1shah, bro, its a web. Try something in real life.You cant change anyone online. Its just a waste of time really.

All people seem to be well-learned here. But i dont think anyone want to mention that some of the scholars have tried their best to name these 12 caliphs, and have inculded the likes of Yazid (la) and Muawiya (la) in the list of these 12 caliphs…

No offence fellas. I am not against any sect or any personnel.
But its my right to curse Yazid and Muawiya at least.

Killed the dear ones of our nabbi. May Allah’s curse be on them.

Love someone dearly, got to dislike their enemies. Its natural.

Allah-Hafiz.

[This message has been edited by Pagluu (edited August 27, 2001).]

YOu might not be but your posting is.
Thats why im ignoring it.
I dont understand why ppl post things here if they dont understand it either. Just to proof something wrong, right?!? :rolleyes


"kaisay na karta usko main pyar, uski haseen main sukh thay hazaar, bichar gayay hum dukh ki hay baat"

Abdul Basit, Changez, and co,

Why don't you just come flat out and say that you don't know who these 12 caliphs are.

I've heard of being a rafidi, not getting involved in hindu debates, being a sunni hater, having a hidden motive, and other such garbage, but no one dared venture to give YOUR own opinion.

This wasn't supposed to be a debate. The hadith is from yr sahih books. I was just interested in knowing what yr scholars had to say about it.

Lost my interest now.

Why do I bother ?

ws

[quote]
Originally posted by Abdul Basit:
**A1shah,

Hadeeths you posted are fabricated and altered. Do something new for a change, will you?

You shias are so backward and superstitious(generally speaking and what kinda of teachings shia ahadeeeeths have) hundreds years from now you guys will be calling khomeni a prophet and wali and bowing to his grave and what have you.

Always bragging about word shia mentioned in Koraan, and bible and parsi scriptures! Always making up hadeeeths and attributing them to our beloved Prophet Muhammed(saw) just to get your own way around. Stop being a shia and start being a Muslim if you have any sense left.

**
[/quote]

Fabricated - from yr own books ?

Good answer.

You can probably sleep better now.

When you decide to take a break from name calling and useless finger pointing, you can discuss this matter again. Till then, shows over.

yeah, I remember, sorry I forgot to mention that you did post 2-3 times on X ‘Hinduism’ threads.

anyway.
a1shah: yes, you are right, I don’t know about who these 12 caliphates are… to me ‘caliphate’ is not the bigger issue, but ‘better’ is, may be there is some ignorance in me… may be…
But to answer Pagluu’s post, I don’t include Yazid and Muwayiya as ‘caliphates’ in my personal opinion.
May be someday I’ll compile the list of those 12 caliphates. But you know what, I already see the major signs of ‘Doomsday’, you can see fornication in many societies, nudity (while still considered as ‘dressed’), killings, drinking wine, so many policemen in smaller areas, etc. etc. I want to get knowledge that’ll make me more ‘pious’, I want to make myself ‘better’ Muslim instead of judging others who was good or who should go to hell.


We oughta be Changez like, don’t we?

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by a1shah:
Twisting meanings are for the likes of you. I'm least bothered by such trivialities.

Ibrahim says; have I not proved a number of times on this forum that you have been adjusting the texts to suit your purpose??

If omitting or editing sacred texts is trivialities….I have to consider you very foolish.

a1shah:
Instead of wasting time in accusations, why don't u use yr mighty translation and tell us what you sunnis understand by these 12 caliphs. Who were/are they ?

Ibrahim says; You mean Muslims will be/Must be living in the past?? Or you mean they should look at this one hadith, with many versions and by this one hadith conclude as to what is right for them?

a1shah:
The fact that your most prominent sahih authors have included this hadith should be sufficient for you to approve of its authenticity. Having crossed that bridge, I suggest you move to the topic at hand.

Ibrahim says: Do you know what is sahih?

a1shah:
I'm looking for some deep insight here people. Do u think we can do that ?

Ibrahim says; Don’t lie a1shah ( sorry to be blunt), you are not looking for insight but trying to spread your folly

LEARN FROM THE PAST DON'T LIVE IN IT!

[quote]
Originally posted by Changez_like:
** yeah, I remember, sorry I forgot to mention that you did post 2-3 times on X 'Hinduism' threads.

anyway.
a1shah: yes, you are right, I don't know about who these 12 caliphates are... to me 'caliphate' is not the bigger issue, but 'better' is, may be there is some ignorance in me.... may be....
But to answer Pagluu's post, I don't include Yazid and Muwayiya as 'caliphates' in my personal opinion.
May be someday I'll compile the list of those 12 caliphates. But you know what, I already see the major signs of 'Doomsday', you can see fornication in many societies, nudity (while still considered as 'dressed'), killings, drinking wine, so many policemen in smaller areas, etc. etc. I want to get knowledge that'll make me more 'pious', I want to make myself 'better' Muslim instead of judging others who was good or who should go to hell.

**
[/quote]

Changez,

Yours is the first relevant post. I was just looking at how the ahl-sunnat understood this hadith.

The fact that the prophet (pbuh) informed us of it shows that it is for our benefit, as are all things that he taught us.

Cheers.

[quote]
Originally posted by Ibrahim:
**

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by a1shah:
Twisting meanings are for the likes of you. I'm least bothered by such trivialities.

Ibrahim says; have I not proved a number of times on this forum that you have been adjusting the texts to suit your purpose??

If omitting or editing sacred texts is trivialities….I have to consider you very foolish.

a1shah:
Instead of wasting time in accusations, why don't u use yr mighty translation and tell us what you sunnis understand by these 12 caliphs. Who were/are they ?

Ibrahim says; You mean Muslims will be/Must be living in the past?? Or you mean they should look at this one hadith, with many versions and by this one hadith conclude as to what is right for them?

a1shah:
The fact that your most prominent sahih authors have included this hadith should be sufficient for you to approve of its authenticity. Having crossed that bridge, I suggest you move to the topic at hand.

Ibrahim says: Do you know what is sahih?

a1shah:
I'm looking for some deep insight here people. Do u think we can do that ?

Ibrahim says; Don’t lie a1shah ( sorry to be blunt), you are not looking for insight but trying to spread your folly

LEARN FROM THE PAST DON'T LIVE IN IT!**
[/quote]

And the ignornance continues.

Like I said Ibraheem will argue pointlessly till the cows come home, but he WILL NOT answer your simple question.
Please next time ask simpler questions.

People here don't know the names of Islam's 12 Khalifas, But they will argue day and night to prove that My Rasool pbuh was capable of making mistakes.

[quote]
Originally posted by a1shah:
** And the ignornance continues.**
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; A1shah! UNDERSTAND ISLAM ! DON'T JUST STAND UNDER IT!!

(not shia, Islam is not shia)

It is clear, you have been under the delusion that all the hadiths, that has been quoted are many hadiths, which is your delusion. Once you have identfied which amongst them is the "pure" version , than come back and tell us, until than stay in your well, which is the best place for you and continue doing muta=illegal marriage ( which was forbidden by the Prophet (pbuh)of Islam and approved by the shia imams.

[quote]
Originally posted by hello hello:
People here don't know the names of Islam's 12 Khalifas,
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; since you know better, tell us the names and make sure you don't lie in the process.

Liars are sinners

(taqiyah is a sin, when its is not a life and death matter)

Firstly the authentic narrations:

From Sahih Bukhari

9:329 Narrated Jabir bin Samura: I heard the Prophet (saw) saying, “There will be twelve Muslim rulers (who will rule the Islamic world)”. He then said a sentence which I did not hear. My father said, “All of them (those rulers) will be from Quraish.”

From Sahih Muslim

4477 It has been narrated on the authority of Jabir bin Samura who said: I joined the company of the Holy Prophet (saw) with my father and I heard him say: This Caliphate will not end until there have been twelve Caliphs among them. The narrator said: Then he (the Holy Prophet) said something that I could not follow. I said to my father: What did he say? He said: He has said: All of them will be from the Quraish.

4478 It has been reported on the authority of Jabir bin Samura who said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (saw) say: The affairs of the people will continue to be conducted (well) as long as they are governed by twelve men. Then the Holy Prophet (saw) said words which were obscure to me. I asked my father: What did the Messenger of Allah (saw) say? He said: All of the (twelve men) will be from the Quraish.

4480 It has been narrated on the authority of Jabir bin Samura who said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (saw) say: Islam will continue to be triumphant until there have been twelve Caliphs. Then the Holy Prophet (saw) said something which I could not understand. I asked my father: What did he say? He said: He said that all of them (twelve Caliphs) will be from the Quraish.

4481 It has been narrated on the authority of Jabir bin Samura that the Holy Prophet (saw) said: This order will continue to be dominant until there have been twelve Caliphs, The narrator says: Then he said something which I could not understand, and I said to my father: What did he say? My father told me that he said that all of them (Caliphs) would be from the Quraish.

4482 It has been narrated on the authority of Jabir bin Samura who said: I went with my father to the Messenger of Allah (saw) and I heard him say: This religion would continue to remain powerful and dominant until there have been twelve Caliphs. Then he added something which I couldn’t catch on the account of the noise of the people. I asked my father: What did he say? My father said: He said that all of them will be from the Quraish.

4483: It has been narrated on the authority of Amir bin Sad bin Abu Waqqas who said: I wrote (a letter) to Jabir bin Samura and sent it to him through my servant Nafi, asking him to inform me of something he had heard from the Messenger of Allah (saw). He wrote to me (in reply): I heard the Messenger of Allah (saw) say on Friday evening, the day on which al-Aslami was stoned to death (for committing adultery): The Islamic religion will continue until the hour is established, or you have been ruled over by twelve Caliphs, all of them being from the Quraish. I also heard him say: A small force of the Muslims will capture the white palace, the palace of the Persian Emperor or his descendants. I also heard him say: Before the day of judgement there will appear (a number of) impostors. You are to guard against them. I also heard him say: When God grants wealth to any one of you, he should first spend it on himself and his family (and then give it in charity to the poor). I heard him (also) say: I will be your forerunner at the Cistern (expecting your arrival).

These are the narrations that I have to hand. Let me stipulate at the outset the following:

  1. That I believe each and every one of the above narrations to be the true sayings of the Messenger of Allah, sallAllahu alihi wa salam as related to us by his trusted companions without any omission.
  2. That whatever Allah’s Nabi tells us suffices for us as guidance.
  3. Nowhere is it mentioned above that the twelve Caliphs will be in power till the end of time, nowhere.
  4. Our Nabi states clearly that during the time of these twelve Caliphs there will be prosperity in terms of the Deen. It is not stated that the existence of time or the existence of the Deen is dependant upon the existence of the twelve Caliphs.
  5. The twelve Caliph do not equate to the twelve Imams of the Ithna Athar ul Ashariya / Rafidah Shia.

And finally, in terms of who these Caliph’s were, then consider the following narration:

Sahih Bukhari

9:325 Narrated ‘Abdullah bin Umar (may Allah be pleased with him): It was said to ‘Umar, “Will you appoint your successor?” ‘Umar said, “If I appoint a caliph (as my successor) it is true that somebody who was better than I (i.e. Abu Bakr) did so, and if I leave the matter undecided, it is true that somebody who was better than I (i.e. Allah’s Messenger (saw)) did so.”

I believe that Allah truly knows who the twelve are, although it should not be left in any doubt that the foremost of he twelve are the first four rightly guided Calipha-e-Rashidoon, may Allah be pleased with them all as they are pleased with Allah. Just as Allah’s Nabi (saw) was content in telling us about the twelve Caliphs without mentioning their names, so we as Muslims should also be content with this.

Alpha,

from yr hadith # 4483, and I quote:

  • The Islamic religion will continue until the hour is established, or you have been ruled over by twelve Caliphs, all of them being from the Quraish. -

Is Islam still continuing ? Then we are being ruled by the 12 caliphs.

Now,I would like to remind you that "Caliph" means successor/deputy. The successor of the Prophet (or the preceding Caliph) should come immediately after the demise of the Prophet (or the preceding Caliph). If there is any gap between the successors, the word "successor" does not make any sense.

So successors should come right after the other without any gap. Also as the Prophet (PBUH&HF) suggested in the above traditions, those twelve Caliphs will cover till the day of resurrection.

And who says that the prophet (pbuh) did not mention who these 12 caliphs are ?

It is amazing that despite the acknowledgment of al-Bukhari and Muslim and other prominent Sunni scholars about the twelve Imams, the Sunnis always stop at the four Caliphs! Puts cold water on your "HAQ CHAR YAAR" slogans, doesn't it.

More interestingly, there are Sunni reports in which the Messenger of Allah named these twelve members of his Ahlul-Bait one by one starting with Imam Ali (AS) and ending with Imam al-Mahdi (AS). (see Yanabi' al-Mawadda, by al-Qunduzi al-Hanafi).