Saddam Hussain arrest - religious discussion (split thread)

Society Religion & Philosophy
1

Firstly for all of those dancing woth joy that saddam is captured, well yes indeed it is good news BUT, not at the hands of non muslims. even if no muslim country did ne thing about it, praising the kaffirs for capturing a muslim is still wrong. correct me if I’m wrong but I’ve heard it’s a very authentic hadees that even the worst muslim is better than a nonmuslim because they believ in Allah, and shirk is the worst sin, unforgivable.

Secondly this war is still illegal. they went into to get WMDs and don’t have them yet, probably never will. What I don’t understand is who the hell gave them the right to capture Saddam? They said they r going into to get weapons and they got Saddam? Well they need to put him back in the whole, cuz no one said that they can have him. sure his people turned him in, but that was afterwards, the search they started was illegal. i’m not saying that saddam wasn’t bad and shouldn’t have been captured, all i’m saying is that today it was saddam tommorrow it will be Musharaff, and so on.

Lastly, it’s all such a big drama. everyone is mixed in it. Saddam is part of America and America is part of him. none is against the other, sub bikayway hain. they have all sold each other. it’s all a hoax. all part of a plan to end Islam, because they know we r right, and they don’t wanna be proved wrong.

2

I'm the Best, you’re contradict yourself, you said that those capturing Saddam is not good news since it was done by non Muslins then you go on to say Saddam is part of America,

On another point, is one Muslim just because they claim they are Muslim or does it take something more?

3

**Originally posted by I'M THE BEST: *
...., praising the kaffirs for capturing a muslim is still wrong. correct me if I'm wrong but I've heard it's a very authentic hadees that even the worst muslim is better than a nonmuslim because they believ in Allah, and shirk is the worst sin, unforgivable.
... *

Brother, this "worst", "good" is for Allah swt alone, not for us to disregard some good deed by a 'kafir', and praise a 'Muslim' for nothing or protect 'Muslim' even if he is as bad as Saddam. "Worst Muslim better than Kafir" only is for Allah swt for Judgement day, which means that a Muslim still has some chance of getting forgiveness.

4

**Originally posted by I'M THE BEST: *
....all i'm saying is that today it was saddam tommorrow it will be Musharaff, and so on...*

Shouldn't we be working for that instead of give an opportunity to an outsider, say kafir, to do it for us?

*...all part of a plan to end Islam, because they know we r right, and they don't wanna be proved wrong. *

Its all part of controlling world's resources. Who says Musharraf is right in his place?

5

Calling Saddam a Muslim is a disgrace to all Muslims around the world. Saddam was no Muslim, he enjoyed killing people (most of them were Muslims). There is no such hadith that states even a worse mulsim is better than a non muslim.
Please do not make statements like these with out any proof.

6

"correct me if I'm wrong but I've heard it's a very authentic hadees that even the worst muslim is better than a nonmuslim because they believ in Allah"

Correct you if you're wrong. Fine, you're wrong. Jerk.

7

Is it me or do these hadees take the place of thinking?

8

OG, UTD read my comment above. Not everybody understands each and everything.

9

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Changez_like: *
"Worst Muslim better than Kafir" only is for Allah swt for Judgement day, which means that a Muslim still has some chance of getting forgiveness.
[/QUOTE]

I think this nicely encapsulates my frustration with the hypocrisy of some of the so called moderates on this board.

Those who would readily jump up and down about alleged intolerance in U.S. Jerry Falwell, Bush and the so-called conservative Christian agenda..on and on.

No Christian or in my view conservative Christian would have any hesitation in believing the worst, most-evil Christian is really just a horrible evil person without equivocation, never even dawning on him/her to consider the question relative to that person's moral standing in the Christian vs. Muslim context.

Yet an outlandish notion-"the worst Muslim is better than Kafir"-gets soft pedaled and in fact left open-ended as a distinct possiblilty "only God can decide" the truth in this.

Please no more lectures on tolerance in America, 'cause on the playing field of religious tolerance, I think our worst may in fact stack up pretty nicely here.

10

Changez,

We do understand, and your explaination is fine. (Storch, I think what Changez is saying is the Christian equivalent of "only God can judge", and that's a reasonable explaination)

What worries me is that I'm the Best is actaully expressing what a lot of Muslims may think or feel, only "I'm the Best" is dense enough to actually say it.

11

OG this is a diff topic but i regularly get told by this guy handing out booklets on michigan ave that I have no chance of salvation if I dont believe in christ..same thing..i.e. no matter how good of a person u are, u will not be saved because jesus did not go on the cross for you etc etc.

Just because we dont hear those sentiments on this site does not mean that its not said, believed or preached, turn on the 700 club anytime :) just as u get concerned that many muslims may feel that, I get concerned because that get shoved to me day in day out too.

storch

you have been reading selectively yet again, there are many who would counter such arguments and do that on a regular basis, to a point some's muslim-ness get questioned (e.g. your's truly). There is no hypocracy, I would kick the butt of someone who is disrespectful towards Buddha, Jesus, Mary, Moses just as much as if somoene said insulted Mohammad..peace be upon them.

anyways diff topic, probably will get split, but do people always forget explanations? because i have said this quite a few times already. I should just attach a tablet of ginko biloba with my posts.

12

Every belief system and followers ..believes followers are better than all others. Whether it's the followers of the US constitution or the followers of a religion.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fraudz: *
OG this is a diff topic but i regularly get told by this guy handing out booklets on michigan ave that I have no chance of salvation if I dont believe in christ..same thing..i.e. no matter how good of a person u are, u will not be saved because jesus did not go on the cross for you etc etc.

Just because we dont hear those sentiments on this site does not mean that its not said, believed or preached, turn on the 700 club anytime :)

storch

you have been reading selectively yet again, there are many who would counter such arguments and do that on a regular basis, to a point some's muslim-ness get questioned (e.g. your's truly). There is no hypocracy, I would kick the butt of someone who is disrespectful towards Buddha, Jesus, Mary, Moses just as much as if somoene said insulted Mohammad..peace be upon them.
[/QUOTE]

The 700 CLub and the guy on the street are *our fundamentalists *. And in a discussion over whether Hitler, Jeff Dahmer or John Wayne Gacy are to be damned, I do not think there would be hesitation in believing so. They might believe that non-saved Christians, Muslims need to be saved to get to heaven, but the evilness or savagery of the three mentioned above need not be equivocated against the wholly seperate issue of faith in whichever God.

Many here in my view purport to be moderates religiously, and their views line up and/or often exceed in terms of intolerance, the Christian fundamentalists.

I completely understand that there is a range of opinion here. You do not represent all of Muslims or moderate Muslimsany more than I represent any group. You represent yourself and your opinions as an individual and quite well I think.

Since day one on this BB a repetitive drum beat has been American hypocrisy, American intolerance. I merely wanted to point out in my previous post, that taking what I consider to be very extreme and intolerant views (that worst Muslim is better than any kufar) is often not considered very extreme or intolerant by those who I think would have the rest of us consider them to be quite tolerant.

14

well thanx for correcting me if that is the case. i wasn't sure about the hadees thats why i said correct me. but no one has provided me evidence for it, i will try and look it up just in case.

underthedome i'm not contradicting, i'm just stating the two possibilities, and the logic behind each. sorry if i wasnt clear.

15

changez jii i'm not a brother im a sister. ne ways yes u hold true on that matter. Allah is the final judge, but still whats wrong is wrong. if u dont read namaz u r wrong, now the rest is to be judged by ALlah, because we don't know the circumstances, only Allah knows all. and regarding that statement, if we can give a kaffir the benefit of the doubt if weather they r wrong or right, than we can surly give a muslim that benefit even if it is Saddam himself , cant we? he is still muslim after all, and only ALlah alone can decide if he is wrong or not, according to u? right? and than agin all i know is that Allah can possibly still forgive all his sins, bc they r not shirk(not saying that he for sure will), but the shirk is the sin a kaffir makes, and that is never forgiven(unless converted), but even than it is for ALlah to decide, that i agree. and Changez ji if Mush isn't right than is Bush? who gives him justice? whos gonna punish him and his father for their crime? if it is Allah, than ALlah will ounish Saddam to, not the kaffirs. and if kaffirs can punish saddam, and they killed so many innocents to do it, than how come 9/11 was such a crime? both wars were supposed to be a punishment and neither were justified by the country or the religion. im not saying 9/11 was ok to do, but its just as wrong as this war. this war is worse it is ongoing, 9/11 was only one attack, this will never stop!

kaleem saab im not making statements, i said to correct me if i was wrng, read carefully next time!

16

I'm The Best. Yes Saddam was a bad man, no matter how illegal this war is, Saddam himself remains a tyrant ruler, the crimes he has committed are bad enough to be punished.... Too bad that its US and coalition doing the punishing thing, but we as Muslims couldn't do the job.

I myself have been against this war. I don't approve of it. But there are things that you condemn and there are things you don't, in this case you appreciate. Yes, the beginning was wrong, and this event in the middle is okay to me.

His "Muslim" being will apparently only bear fruit (if at all) in front of Allah swt only. The crimes he committed, he never regretted, he never apologised, he never surrendered. Just like after death you don't have option of "repentance", you don't get forgiven when you are caught running away after committing a crime.

If he had apologised to Iraqi people before war, it would have been a different situation, and now we know that he was simply running for his own life after his brutal regime is over, his crimes are unforgivable.

As for being a "worst" Muslim thing goes, then there are other things to consider as well. You must have heard "prayer distinguishes a Muslim from non-Muslim".... remember? All these things may be used for your own references, you can't take these and start judging, right?

Mr. Storch, seems like you got offended by me for "not hitting hard enough" on "worst Mulim is better than kafir".... well, as I said it is only God to judge who is worst and who is not, I don't find a problem in that.. plz do point what is wrong with that?

17

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by I'M THE BEST: *
I've heard it's a very authentic hadees that even the worst muslim is better than a nonmuslim because they believe in Allah, and shirk is the worst sin, unforgivable.

[/QUOTE]

I cannot comment upon the authenticity of this Hadith but based on common sense, how is a person who claims to have faith in Allah yet blatantly defies his orders and hurts his creation be better than someone who never saw the light to begin with? 'Shirk' is the greatest of all sins and an unforgivable one at that but doesn't Allah also say that he will/may forgive sins committed against him but not violation of 'huqooq-ul-ibaad'...that is for the person to forgive who's right was violated?

18

simple fact is we muslims can't do anything.

first there was the iran/iraq war. muslim countries end up taking sides, and or staying neutral. what they should have done was that the OIC should have decided against the aggressor and acted on it, by siding with the attacked country, and use force if necessary.

then the iraq-kuwait war. instead of the coalition forces, OIC should have taken the lead, and should have went to war with IRaq to free kuwait.

People know what saddam is, and have been ignoring him. Just because non-muslims have taken care of him (for whatever reason), should shame us that he was allowed to stay in power for 30 years.

All this talk about muslim brotherhood is hollow. It can easily be said that Allah used the American to get rid of Saddam, because the muslims are so week.

the double standards I see in this board are too much.

19

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by nomaan: *
simple fact is we muslims can't do anything.

first there was the iran/iraq war. muslim countries end up taking sides, and or staying neutral. what they should have done was that the OIC should have decided against the aggressor and acted on it, by siding with the attacked country, and use force if necessary.

then the iraq-kuwait war. instead of the coalition forces, OIC should have taken the lead, and should have went to war with IRaq to free kuwait.

People know what saddam is, and have been ignoring him. Just because non-muslims have taken care of him (for whatever reason), should shame us that he was allowed to stay in power for 30 years.

All this talk about muslim brotherhood is hollow. It can easily be said that Allah used the American to get rid of Saddam, because the muslims are so week.

the double standards I see in this board are too much.
[/QUOTE]

definitely not! u seem to naiive! the muslims didnt let saddam rule for 30 years my friend, the americans did. what do u think, that they couldn't have gotten him along time ago? they could have gotten him right when he left America, but they didn't they let him run. they wanted him to run. they didnt need to catch him then. they didnt need to turn everyones head at that time away from their illegal activ, this is the time when everyone is into news and politics more than ever, and r aware. so obviously what do they do, they put on a drama and turn everybodys heads in the middle east direction and make it look evil, well might as well cuz they hate us muslims ne ways, and not just from now but ever since Islam came into being. so don't give me that balony about how they hate us cuz of terrorism. they've hated us ever since, they made many inncoent muslims into terrorsists, only America is to blame, only America, they r the root cause of the problem, and u know what they can't control the mess they've made out of the muslims, and thats what scares the shi* out of them! do u think muslim countires didnt wanna free Iraq? but who do u think was stopping them? thats right they r all under debt to america, they r not even their own countries ne more, they owe so much debt america almost owns them. and u really think america gives two shi*s about people in Iraq? hell no they dont! they sure didnt when they put sanctions on it and killed millions, and when asked they said it was ok. my as*, if i live in this country, it's only bc i will soon leave it or i will change it!!!!! and inshallah i will change it, and inshallah i will die changing it. and there is nothing wrong in doing so, cuz it's not the gorras country either, they got it from the natives, and made it what they wanted it to be. so whoz to stop us from doing what we want?

20

yeah .. america controls everything .. i missed that issue of Conspiracy Thoery weekly.