Sad State of Affairs Pakistanis

[khoji]

Re: Sad State of Affairs Pakistanis

Indeed its sad state of affairs in Pakistan and the reason is not that women dont do parda or men wear t-shirts. The reason is oppression, exploitation, injustice and cruelty. Remember, a country can sustain with kufr but cannot sustain with zulm.

That is very true.

[KaafHaaYaaAynSaad]

Re: Sad State of Affairs Pakistanis

Koi baat nahi… everyone is young once, and threads like these are expected.

Hmmm…

Not really. 40,000 come out on a single days notice to ensure that a woman who they believe insulted Islam is killed, and to celebrate the killing of a govt official who supported that woman publicly. Every other day someone or the other blows himself and many others up, believing that is an act in furtherance of Islam. Hardly seems like we’ve got disinterested in religion.

That’s not what I meant. Read the bullet points.

So what beautiful traditions would you like to see more of on tv? There are specialty channels for Islamic material.. i assume you dont mean those. Obviously non-Islamic channels will cast a wider net for inspiration. While I agree, the Indian part of it is regrettable and should definitely be addressed, whats the harm in getting inspired by western ideas. The beauty of the thing is, you can always switch over to the Islamic channel like Qtv etc.

Why is it that non-Islamic channels will “cast a wider net for aspiration?”
Doesn’t that mean we favor non-Islamic things more than Islamic things?

What’s the harm in western ideas?
That’s the whole point of the thread. We’re getting too westernized that we’re going farther away from Islam. Westernization is doing more damage than good to us as individuals and as a nation.

There is no known Muslim conception of ‘cool’. The closest we can get to the middle east is the Yoruba who have a notion of mystic cool. But that might involve wearing masks of coolness and all that sorta stuff, a lot of hassle.

I’ll skip this one.

Times change. Lets remember that before Zia movies and tv would show people drinking and clubbing. So it isnt exactly a linear progression.

Times change, true.
Islam doesn’t.

Simple as that.

We can’t change with time so much as to cross the limits of Islam.

Agreed, they shouldnt be like bollywood actresses

Glad we agreed on something.

Why are you spending so much time looking at clean shaven men in tight jeans dude. Be cool.

You’re assuming what I do and I don’t do.
And it’s not that hard to notice if you step outside.

Thanks to beyonce and other western influences lowering the gaze is no longer a guarantee of virtuous behaviour. Perhaps that is the explanation.

We don’t follow Beyonce, we follow Prophet Muhammad :saw2:

WHERE WAS THIS PAKISTAN WHEN I WAS IN COLLEGE??

Good, you missed it.

Like what?

Dancing in Bollywood songs for one.

Well why dont you begin with yourself? Clearly ‘we’ includes you too, otherwise you would say why are ‘you’ not praying 5 times. So you should start by praying 5 times and doing hijab/lowering your gaze.

I said we because I’m Pakistani, too.
And, please, you really shouldn’t say what I do and don’t do, since you don’t know me.

Did you actually try this out yourself? Be honest.

No.

[Xtron]

Re: Sad State of Affairs Pakistanis

As others have mentioned above, sir, the general state of the world is such that what seemed well and good 10 years ago seems not so good anymore. We all change, and yes, change that occurs with loss of values can be detrimental. However, we can only change ourselves before we try to reach out.

OP. Very sensible post mash'allah. Praise to Allah to who has unabled me differencialte right from wrong but yet i make mistakes again and again. And as Nisik said in his post, we should correct ourselves first before we do correct others. This is one of the basic tenant of Islam. We Muslims are united and strong when we abide my Hukm of Allah and Sunnah of Prophet SAW. Your post really made me think today btw.

[Niksik]

Re: Sad State of Affairs Pakistanis

Niksik is a she

[ravage]

Re: Sad State of Affairs Pakistanis

@KaafHaaYaaAynSaad

That’s not what I meant. Read the bullet points.

Thats just being evasive. I gave you specific evidence that far from being far from Islam, evidence suggests it is one of the most powerful motivators in our society, to the extent of killing and getting killed.

Why is it that non-Islamic channels will “cast a wider net for aspiration?”
Doesn’t that mean we favor non-Islamic things more than Islamic things?

That is sort of by definition isnt it? If its a non-Islamic channel, they will not be tied to Islamic sources for inspiration. As for what we favour, surely that should be an individual decision?

What’s the harm in western ideas?
That’s the whole point of the thread. We’re getting too westernized that we’re going farther away from Islam. Westernization is doing more damage than good to us as individuals and as a nation.

That may be arguable, however the issues you have raised certainly dont seem harmful. A small segment of the population adopting western style dress seems to be a relatively insignificant social issue, given the vast array of challenges that are before us.

I’ll skip this one.

Why? You lament that it is not possible to be ‘cool’ and Islamic. Its pertinent to note that that is almost a contradiction in terms.

Times change, true.
Islam doesn’t.

Simple as that.

We can’t change with time so much as to cross the limits of Islam.

The picture you paint is very linear, gradual decline etc. My point is that we are much more conservative as a country than we were 20 years ago.

You’re assuming what I do and I don’t do.
And it’s not that hard to notice if you step outside.

I certainly dont notice men wearing tight enough jeans as to be a danger to my virtue

We don’t follow Beyonce, we follow Prophet Muhammad

Nice job deadpanning a little bit of playful humour. See my earlier point about coolness.

Good, you missed it.

cruel.

Dancing in Bollywood songs for one.

Whats the harm in a little fun yar. I agree the bollywood aspect is bad, but lets say Abrar or even (if you are feeling religious) Sayyoni. Whats wrong with dancing on that at a wedding.

I said we because I’m Pakistani, too.
And, please, you really shouldn’t say what I do and don’t do, since you don’t know me.

Well I inferred from how you phrased it. If you are observant yourself you should be accurate and say “Why dont some of you become regular in namaz? Why dont those of you who dont do hijab start doing it, as I am doing both of these things already”?

No.

And yet you wanted US to burn our hands?? Why?

[KaafHaaYaaAynSaad]

Re: Sad State of Affairs Pakistanis

@ravage

Thats just being evasive. I gave you specific evidence that far from being far from Islam, evidence suggests it is one of the most powerful motivators in our society, to the extent of killing and getting killed.

Killing innocent people is unIslamic. As for the cases you mentioned, I'm not really sure about them as I didn't read into them too closely.

Allah knows best.

[QUOTE]
That is sort of by definition isnt it? If its a non-Islamic channel, they will not be tied to Islamic sources for inspiration. As for what we favour, surely that should be an individual decision?
[/QUOTE]

How is it an individual decision when Allah has said to stay away from it?

[QUOTE]
That may be arguable, however the issues you have raised certainly dont seem harmful. A small segment of the population adopting western style dress seems to be a relatively insignificant social issue, given the vast array of challenges that are before us.

[/QUOTE]

Small segment?
It's spreading pretty fast, actually... especially among the youth.

As for challenges, this is one of the most important challenge for us - to come back to Islam.

[QUOTE]
Why? You lament that it is not possible to be 'cool' and Islamic. Its pertinent to note that that is almost a contradiction in terms.
[/QUOTE]

Eh?

[QUOTE]
The picture you paint is very linear, gradual decline etc. My point is that we are much more conservative as a country than we were 20 years ago.
[/QUOTE]

Are we? How so?

We didn't used to have these shameless channels on TV 20 years ago.
We didn't used to follow the western lifestyle 20 years ago.

[QUOTE]
I certainly dont notice men wearing tight enough jeans as to be a danger to my virtue :p
[/QUOTE]

And what about woman wearing revealing clothes?

[QUOTE]
Nice job deadpanning a little bit of playful humour. See my earlier point about coolness.
[/QUOTE]

No time for humor, man.

[QUOTE]
Whats the harm in a little fun yar. I agree the bollywood aspect is bad, but lets say Abrar or even (if you are feeling religious) Sayyoni. Whats wrong with dancing on that at a wedding.
[/QUOTE]

See, that's the problem. We can make excuses like "We're just having fun" or "We only do it sometimes." But, when something is wrong, it's wrong for every time, every amount.

Having music, dancing, free-mixing in shaadis is forbidden in Islam, doesn't matter if you do it a little or a lot.

[QUOTE]
Well I inferred from how you phrased it. If you are observant yourself you should be accurate and say "Why dont some of you become regular in namaz? Why dont those of you who dont do hijab start doing it, as I am doing both of these things already"?

[/QUOTE]

Didn't wanted to sound like I'm better than anyone else.

[QUOTE]
And yet you wanted US to burn our hands?? Why?
[/QUOTE]

We're burning our own hands, my friend.

[KaafHaaYaaAynSaad]

Re: Sad State of Affairs Pakistanis

@Xtron

OP. Very sensible post mash'allah. Praise to Allah to who has unabled me differencialte right from wrong but yet i make mistakes again and again. And as Nisik said in his post, we should correct ourselves first before we do correct others. This is one of the basic tenant of Islam. We Muslims are united and strong when we abide my Hukm of Allah and Sunnah of Prophet SAW. Your post really made me think today btw.

JazakAllah Khairan.

[ravage]

Re: Sad State of Affairs Pakistanis

@KaafHaaYaaAynSaad

Killing innocent people is unIslamic. As for the cases you mentioned, I’m not really sure about them as I didn’t read into them too closely.

Allah knows best.

Problem is that they’re not innocent from the perspective of those who do the killing. Nevertheless the point is to demonstrate that we are quite attached to Islam as it is, even if that can be argued to be an incorrect interpretation of Islam.

How is it an individual decision when Allah has said to stay away from it?

Because its the individual’s decision that Allah rewards or punishes. You wont get punished for something I do.

Small segment?
It’s spreading pretty fast, actually… especially among the youth.

Estimate some stats. I wouldnt put it at more than 2% who wear western garb etc outside their hmes.

As for challenges, this is one of the most important challenge for us - to come back to Islam.

Why is this the most important challenge, as opposed to educating children (10% of all non school going children in the world are Pakistanies) or caring for the sick or solving our energy crisis etc?

Are we? How so?

We didn’t used to have these shameless channels on TV 20 years ago.
We didn’t used to follow the western lifestyle 20 years ago.

Lets say 30, I got my math a bit wrong. Back then tv had pretty westernized clothing, and heroes used to drink in the movies. Back then we didnt have a million different religious organizations.

And what about woman wearing revealing clothes?

I do notice those. Insaan houn akhir.

See, that’s the problem. We can make excuses like “We’re just having fun” or “We only do it sometimes.” But, when something is wrong, it’s wrong for every time, every amount.

Having music, dancing, free-mixing in shaadis is forbidden in Islam, doesn’t matter if you do it a little or a lot.

Well lets say its segregated. Whats wrong in a little song and dance. Fine I wont dispute the Islamicness of it, but surely you cant regard a few girls or guys dancing nice and separate as constitutive of one of the big challenges facing our society?

Didn’t wanted to sound like I’m better than anyone else.

You’re just stating the facts. If that makes you feel like you’re sounding better than anyone else, then maybe you feel that way yourself? If that is the case surely it is more honest to say so.

We’re burning our own hands, my friend.

I thought we established you werent burning anything

[KaafHaaYaaAynSaad]

Re: Sad State of Affairs Pakistanis

@ravage

Problem is that they’re not innocent from the perspective of those who do the killing. Nevertheless the point is to demonstrate that we are quite attached to Islam as it is, even if that can be argued to be an incorrect interpretation of Islam.

We don’t care about the perspective of those who do the killing.
I’m sure people who fornicate don’t think it’s wrong to do it. Same with people who drink alcohol. We have to look at the Islamic perspective.

How can a person be attached to Islam, when these actions aren’t Islamic at all?

Because its the individual’s decision that Allah rewards or punishes. You wont get punished for something I do.

I’m sure no one wants to be punished. That’s why I’m trying to tell them to make decisions that’ll save them from the punishment of Allah.

Estimate some stats. I wouldnt put it at more than 2% who wear western garb etc outside their hmes.

Maybe, not in small cities, but Karachi and Lahore…I doubt it.

Why is this the most important challenge, as opposed to educating children (10% of all non school going children in the world are Pakistanies) or caring for the sick or solving our energy crisis etc?

If we follow Allah and His Messenger then all of our problems can be solved.

Islam has given rights to education for not only men, but girls, too.

Islam encourages charity and helping other people.

If we didn’t had corrupt gov’t officials hoarding our money, we’d be out of this energy crisis long ago.

Lets say 30, I got my math a bit wrong. Back then tv had pretty westernized clothing, and heroes used to drink in the movies. Back then we didnt have a million different religious organizations.

Pakistan barely had more than a few channels 30 years back, how did we had westernize clothing and drinking?

Religious organizations?
Do you mean political organizations?

I do notice those. Insaan houn akhir.

Okay, so my point stands.

Well lets say its segregated. Whats wrong in a little song and dance. Fine I wont dispute the Islamicness of it, but surely you cant regard a few girls or guys dancing nice and separate as constitutive of one of the big challenges facing our society?

That’s the problem. It’s not segregated.
We can’t just say it’s segregated, when it’s not.

As for Islam, music is not allowed. But, even if they were doing naach gaana separately (male by themselves and females by themselves) it would be less sinful. However, majority of the weddings are mixed, unfortunately.

You’re just stating the facts. If that makes you feel like you’re sounding better than anyone else, then maybe you feel that way yourself? If that is the case surely it is more honest to say so.

I never said anything like that. =/

I thought we established you werent burning anything

It was an example. Let’s not get worked up over it.

[SindSagar]

Re: Sad State of Affairs Pakistanis

[quote="KaafHaaYaaAynSaad"]

....................... Let's not get worked up over it./QUOTE

Pardon me for changing your post, but I found the key sentence I think sums it all up.............

you said "Let's not get worked up over it"

and I want to quote my Favorite Poet who said it in very few words:

***Kun fa ya koon farmayo jadaan

assanh koal tuhaaday haa say

Nafs paleet paleet kita

assan asl paleet nah say!***

and if you do not understand Bab Buleh Shah, I will translate for you!

[KaafHaaYaaAynSaad]

Re: Sad State of Affairs Pakistanis

[QUOTE]
you said "Let's not get worked up over it"
[/QUOTE]

You want me to stop posting here?

[QUOTE]

***Kun fa ya koon farmayo jadaan

assanh koal tuhaaday haa say

Nafs paleet paleet kita

assan asl paleet nah say!***

and if you do not understand Bab Buleh Shah,** I will translate for you**!
[/QUOTE]

Please do.

[ravage]

Re: Sad State of Affairs Pakistanis

@KaafHaaYaaAynSaad

We don’t care about the perspective of those who do the killing.
I’m sure people who fornicate don’t think it’s wrong to do it. Same with people who drink alcohol. We have to look at the Islamic perspective.
How can a person be attached to Islam, when these actions aren’t Islamic at all?

Surely if we are to say whether or not people are attached to Islam, we need to consider their attachment as opposed to whether or not their interpretation of religion is correct or not.

Maybe, not in small cities, but Karachi and Lahore…I doubt it.

Well there it is. Karachi is about 18million, Lahore about 8million. Less than 30 million altogether to be generous. Lets say 10% of that is the upper/upper-middle class (thats being very generous) where you see the problems you mention. So 3 million. out of 160 million. Very small problem indeed.

If we follow Allah and His Messenger then all of our problems can be solved.

Islam has given rights to education for not only men, but girls, too.

Islam encourages charity and helping other people.

If we didn’t had corrupt gov’t officials hoarding our money, we’d be out of this energy crisis long ago.

So I would humbly submit that we focus on these problems before the others you have focused on.

Pakistan barely had more than a few channels 30 years back, how did we had westernize clothing and drinking?

Religious organizations?
Do you mean political organizations?

Oho, its not quantity, but content. Pakistan had very liberal attitudes as a state 30 years ago, prior to Bhutto’s Islamic turn exponentially increased by Zia. And I dont just mean political, but religious organizations and political organizations with a religious outlook. Far many of those than there were 30 years ago.

Okay, so my point stands.

So I notice women with skimpy clothes and you notice clean shaved guys in tight jeans. I dont know what your point was other than that.

That’s the problem. It’s not segregated.
We can’t just say it’s segregated, when it’s not.

Well usually its just family isnt it.

As for Islam, music is not allowed. But, even if they were doing naach gaana separately (male by themselves and females by themselves) it would be less sinful. However, majority of the weddings are mixed, unfortunately.

I didnt dispute that (although I could, I’ve heard Ghamdi is a good reference for justifications on these things but thats a whole other discussion). All I said was do you really think this is one of the major harms in our society, assuming its just guys and girls dancing separately.

I never said anything like that. =/

sorry. im just having fun.

[KaafHaaYaaAynSaad]

Re: Sad State of Affairs Pakistanis

[QUOTE]
Surely if we are to say whether or not people are attached to Islam, we need to consider their attachment as opposed to whether or not their interpretation of religion is correct or not.

[/QUOTE]

Isn't it enough to consider their attachment when majority of Muslim aren't even practicing their farz obligations, like namaz and hijab?

[QUOTE]
Well there it is. Karachi is about 18million, Lahore about 8million. Less than 30 million altogether to be generous. Lets say 10% of that is the upper/upper-middle class (thats being very generous) where you see the problems you mention. So 3 million. out of 160 million. Very small problem indeed.
[/QUOTE]

I'd want to disagree because 1) We'd need a research to actually get to those numbers 2) You probably came up with those numbers in 5 seconds.

[QUOTE]
So I would humbly submit that we focus on these problems before the others you have focused on.
[/QUOTE]

Focus on which problems?
I already said if we fix our deen, everything will fall in place by itself. InshaAllah.

[QUOTE]
Oho, its not quantity, but content. Pakistan had very liberal attitudes as a state 30 years ago, prior to Bhutto's Islamic turn exponentially increased by Zia. And I dont just mean political, but religious organizations and political organizations with a religious outlook. Far many of those than there were 30 years ago.
[/QUOTE]

I have no idea what Pak had 30 years ago. Not that old.
So, no point in arguing that.

[QUOTE]
So I notice women with skimpy clothes and you notice clean shaved guys in tight jeans. I dont know what your point was other than that.
[/QUOTE]

My point was that we are more prone to be clean shaven and wear revealing clothes than wearing proper Islamic clothing.

[QUOTE]
Well usually its just family isnt it.
[/QUOTE]

Friends and cousins are non-mahrams, meaning we're suppose to not mix with them.

[QUOTE]
I didnt dispute that (although I could, I've heard Ghamdi is a good reference for justifications on these things but thats a whole other discussion). All I said was do you really think this is one of the major harms in our society, assuming its just guys and girls dancing separately.

[/QUOTE]

Who's Ghamdi?

I never said this in itself is a major prob, but it's part of a major prob - not adhering to Islam.

[SindSagar]

Re: Sad State of Affairs Pakistanis

@KaafHaaYaaAynSaad

You want me to stop posting here?

Please do.

Please do not read into the quotation I copied from your own post some negative meaning......what I meant was in the end game none this matters that much! other than our intentions!

and as for the translation of Baba Bulle Shah!

He is addressing Allah Subhan hu wa Taala.....

saying...

When Allah SWT proclaimed "كُن فَيَكُونُ "

We were all there close to Allah SWT

it is the unclean Nafs that made us unclean

we were actually not unclean to begin with!

Kapeesh.......:)

and by the way your GS name/nick is impressive كهيعص

can you translate its meaning for us........Thanks!

[KaafHaaYaaAynSaad]

Re: Sad State of Affairs Pakistanis

@SindSagar

Please do not read into the quotation I copied from your own post some negative meaning......what I meant was in the end game none this matters that much! other than our intentions!

What doesn't matter?
Which part?

[QUOTE]
When Allah SWT proclaimed "كُن فَيَكُونُ "

We were all there close to Allah SWT

it is the unclean Nafs that made us unclean

we were actually not unclean to begin with!

Kapeesh.......:)
[/QUOTE]

I don't get how this is related to the thread, but I get the quote.

[SindSagar]

Re: Sad State of Affairs Pakistanis

@KaafHaaYaaAynSaad

What doesn't matter? Which part?

I don't get how this is related to the thread, but I get the quote.

What you have listed is all the bad characteristics of people living in "PAKISTAN" the land of PURE

then where and when did it all start looking like "PALEETISTAN"

in reply to that I quoted Baba Bulle Shah....

"asan asl paleet na say"

[KaafHaaYaaAynSaad]

Re: Sad State of Affairs Pakistanis

Well, yeah, my intentions were to get people to fix the bad things.

And, I only understand English and Urdu. So, please translate.

[SindSagar]

Re: Sad State of Affairs Pakistanis

@KaafHaaYaaAynSaad

Well, yeah, my intentions were to get people to fix the bad things.

And, I only understand English and Urdu. So, please translate.

Yes Bhai Sahib I will gladly translate it for you a second time, only if you kindly translate "KaafHaaYaaAynSaad"

Thanks!

[KaafHaaYaaAynSaad]

Re: Sad State of Affairs Pakistanis

Kaaf Haa Yaa Ayn Saad, that's easy, yaar.

Guess karo?

[SindSagar]

Re: Sad State of Affairs Pakistanis

@KaafHaaYaaAynSaad

Kaaf Haa Yaa Ayn Saad, that's easy, yaar.

Guess karo?

I know it is the Starting Letters for Surah Al Mariam!

but what do they mean?