Sad but true...

i dont agree with everything that this pakistani Canadian scholar says but he is pretty much spot on in this article…

for how long western governments will keep issuing immigration certificates to muslims, provide them with a safe environment so that these muslims can practice their religion, protect their rights and mosques … and then in return become a victim of their hatred in a terrorist attack/attempt…

we all know who did london terrorist attacks…who planned plane bombings using chemicals, and there are many other plots unfoiled since then which were being planned by Muslim immigrants living and enjoying the benefits of these secular societies…isnt this a height of hypocrisy?

now i know that majority of the muslim community is peaceful but the problem is that even if one of these ugly attacks gets through, hundreds if not thousands of innocent people will die… and all of us go to our mosques in the west…we know that some imams are very aggressive against 'kuffar"…right?

it is a very tricky situation…not sure the optimal solution…knee jerk reaction will create more hatred and division.

i urge to read tarek’s article with an open mind and discuss his points on merit…
thx

Stop praying for defeat of

                                                                                              **Stop praying for defeat of ‘Kufaar’**

                                                                                                                                                              **Every time a Canadian Muslim is named as a suspect, the predictable Islamic clerics line up to deny it**

http://storage.canoe.ca/v1/dynamic_resize/sws_path/suns-prod-images/1297240386907_AUTHOR_PHOTO.jpg?quality=80&stmp=1365546498056&size=35x35

By Tarek Fatah ,QMI Agency First posted: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 06:21 PM EDT | Updated: Tuesday, April 09, 2013 06:23 PM EDT

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Here we go again. Yet another group of Canadian Muslims itching for  jihad has been discovered. This time, not only did they plot jihad, two  of them died fighting one.

For years now, Canadians have been reading about Islamist-inspired terror-plots with dismay. No sooner do they get over one plot, another emerges. These include the failed Millennium bomber Ahmed Ressam, al-Qaida linked Omar Khadr, Ottawa digi-bomber Momin Khawaja, the Toronto-18, the Mumbai 2008-fame Tahawwur Rana, the still unnamed Arab-Canadian who allegedly blew up a bus full of Israelis in Bulgaria. And now we hear about Ali Medlej, Xristos Katsiroubas and maybe Aaron Yoon from London, Ontario.
And there is more in the pipeline.
Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS) are reportedly monitoring 50 to 60 Canadians suspected of being involved in jihadi groups. Recently, AFP in Pakistan interviewed a Canadian who goes by the name Mohammad Ibrahim. He claims to have completed terror training in Pakistan and was “preparing to leave” and ready to wag jihad inside Canada.
Every time a Canadian Muslim is named as a suspect, the predictable Islamic clerics line up before cameras to deny any role in the affair. This time too, London’s mosque establishment came out with the now familiar bane “unequivocally condemning violent extremism of any kind”. Adding the anticipated rhetoric, “… this is the opposite to the core teachings of Islam.” Most of the media, as usual, lobbed puffball questions to London’s supposed Muslim leaders. They carefully avoided talking to liberal or secular Muslim community leaders such University of Western Ontario professor Dr. Salim Mansur, who is witness to the growing narrative of jihadi Islamist doctrines in his city.
The question to the Islamic clerics should not have been whether they supported or denounced “violent extremism,” but rather:
*— Have you ever renounced the doctrine of ‘armed jihad’ in any of your sermons?
— Do you offer prayers in your mosque urging the congregation to ask Allah for Muslim victory over Kufaar (Christians and Jews)?
Those of us who have cried till our voice was hoarse about the dangers of Islamism as a political doctrine, are labelled Chicken Little screaming “the sky is falling”. On the contrary, we are the canaries in the mine, still alive, but do we have to die before Canada recognizes the odourless poison in our midst?
To fight malaria, we need to drain the swamps, not shoot down individual mosquitos. Long before the mosquito emerges, the larva is sustained in stagnant pools that allow the disease carrier to nourish and flourish.
Long before a jihadi picks up an AK47, he or she is imbibed with a false sense of victimhood and hatred towards non-Muslims. That hate is subtle, yet potent. And there are Imams urging the faithful to utter prayers against the Kuffar — Jews, Christians, Hindus and other non-Muslims.
“Anta mawlana, fanSurna ‘Alal Qawmil Kaafiryun”
“[O Allah] You are our Protector, give us victory over the Kuffar [Jews, Christians, Hindus and other non-Muslims]”
Just the ethics of such hateful sermons and prayers is questionable, if not repugnant.
Never once in any of his sermons did Prophet Muhammad invoke such angry words towards non-Muslims.
And if clerics in Canada want to be taken seriously the next time a Canadian is accused of jihad, then they should also denounce this prayer.

Re: Sad but true...

you had the nerve to post this bigots' article

Re: Sad but true...

how abt we focus on the content and not on the messenger....u think everything in this article is plain bigotry and there is some truth to it?

Re: Sad but true...

I for one am working on a back up plan. It's not a matter of If but a matter of when the winds will change. I am working on having something in Pakistan just in case things get sour. And get sour they will; you are living in a dream world if you think they won't. Today or tomorrow they will, and if history has any bearing, it can even happen overnight due to a single incident. History is full of such occasions.

Re: Sad but true...

good point....and to be honest, I do think abt it these days.....amount of unspoken hatred that Pakistanis face these days in USA is a bit disturbing....

and i just dont see religious-infested zealous jihadist mentality to end in extremist circles of muslims...which mean they will continue with their plans...and god forbidden if one more bad incidence happens in the USA or UK or europe, we will be in trouble....big trouble.

but what shd western governments do with immigration of muslims.... that is the toughest part...complete ban is not a feasible solution either....at this point many western countries including the USA award your kid a citizenship if he is born there even if u r a tourist there for few days!!! too liberal in many ways

Re: Sad but true...

Will you ever open a positive thread about Pakistan ever ?

Re: Sad but true…

tarek fatah…:rotfl:

maybe one day this man will figure out where he fails logic…

Re: Sad but true…

sure..he is a liberal English speaking fascist…lives in Canada…what does he know abt pakistan and Pakistanis… so hell with him!

but hey if you know how to read urdu…here is another article in the mainstream pakistani urdu press describing the same problem…oh maybe this guy also needs to figure out where he fails logic!

i do hope that you read this article…

Roznama Dunya

Re: Sad but true...

I am meeting a lot Pakistanis these days who cannot read urdu ... i swear i could not believe it first...i went to strings show in NYC and attended several other local PTI events and all these mummy daddy types were born and raised in lahore/karachi and they cannot ready urdu...yet they claim to be mamay chacahy of pakistan!

are you one of them Waleed munnay?

Re: Sad but true…

actually…this is someone that I have known personally for several years…you could say I’ve grown up watching him poison the image of Muslims in the local community.
you might want to do some more research on the man and his opinions before you pass along his wisdom

thanks for the article in urdu…don’t have time now but I’ll take a look on the weekend perhaps.

Re: Sad but true...

what does being able to read a language have to do with one's sense of nationality or national pride?

Re: Sad but true...

i gave him hard time on twitter and declared him an "internet scholar" who wakes up every day and start googling to find news to malign islam and then start tweeting abt them...he pushed back but then banned me!

so i know him (not personally) for many years, read his columns regularly and i read his book as well....and yes he is well read and makes his arguments passionately and convincingly but no i don't respect him ..he is not balanced at all, and is a liberal extremist but what he is saying in this particular article is pretty accurate, as i see it...hence i decided to post it. thx

Re: Sad but true...

really? are you serious....if a brit who is born and raised in UK cannot read english and who feels degraded in communicating via english wants to be a mama chacha of UK...do you have any idea how will be he treated in UK? what will be the depth of his/her connection with the masses when he cannot even read his own language despite the fact he lived there? he cannot read his mainstream press, he has never read his own history/literature.... and the list simply goes on and on...and you are saying so what? really muzna?

but before we go any further, let me be clear....i am talkin abt those folks who have lived first 15/20 years of their lives in pakistan but they can't read urdu...and top of that they look down upon urdu, urdu literature and everything related to it...i mean how messed up is that? I went to a business school in the US and we had students from 80 countries and i had friends from south america, south asia, china, south east asia, europe, africa..i dont remember any one who couldn't read in his native lingo or had problem communicating in his native language ......pakistani and indian students were the only one who used to speak in English to each other....idiots!

so yes if someone has lived in Lahore for 20 years and he/she cannot read urdu, well he/she better be careful before he/she opens his mouth on Pakistani issues....coz what exactly he knows abt this country and masses/

Re: Sad but true...

Let me put myself in that example of yours'....
I may not have grown up in Pakistan.
Perhaps my ability to read urdu is not as good as your's.
Maybe I don't currently live there.
Does all this limit my ability to learn/know of its citizens/issues/religion/culture? Surely not.

Anyway....this is not such an important point. I just found it silly that you would argue it.

Re: Sad but true...

yes u shd not argue abt it coz I am not talking abt you or your type....you have absolutely every right to be involved in Pakistan with full passion....that is a choice that you made...and no one is expecting you to read in urdu...

i was making a point abt those** who are born and raised in pakistan*,
**who went to school in pakistan, *

who lived their 15/20 years but ....

....but they cannot read in urdu, they always communicate in English and look down on urdu....but they claim to be nationalistic and aware of problems of our masses and whatnot....how is that possible? if you have lived a lifestyle where you never ever learnt how to read your national language urdu, how can you claim to understand problems of those those who are around you and belong to masses....and yes we have a lot of such characters in Pak...and on this forum as well!

it is a very important point and I also find it silly that you are having hard time comprehending such a basic proposition ..... so lets not argue abt it.

Re: Sad but true...

I m glad that Im not one of them but I think you are one of them cz you are meeting them on regular basis

Re: Sad but true...

No dear, those of us in Toronto know him. Some personally, others as a media personality. The fact that he is cozy with noted Islamaphobes (i.e. those who even find evil intent behind our desire to eat halal), really does put him in bad company. He's not a scholar. He's what you would call a polemicist. He argues for the sake of arguing, and that's how he makes his money.

The fallacy with his argument is that it presumes that extremism comes within the community. Often, in cases such as this, it exists in parallel. Nobody from the Islamic community knew what these boys were up to. In the case of the Toronto 18, it may well have been entrapment (we just won't know...). What's for certain, there was a (MUSLIM) mole working on behalf of the RCMP that thwarted/egged on the youths. Again, no fiery sermon at a frequented mosque to be found.

You will have some slef styled Imams who will beat the war drums once and a while, but again, they're hardly mainstream...and denunciations of their POV go (annoyingly) unnoticed by Fatah and his likes. He would claim it's either a ruse (Takkiyya, as most Islampahobes woud cry), or simply pretend it was not uttered.

Re: Sad but true...

Let me pick apart the article, to demonstrate my point:

Right there in the headlines...sigh...typical.

In other words...if you stay silent, your silence will be interpreted as being supportive of terrorism. You denounce it...you're a liar. Damned if you do, Damned if you don't. Such people cannot be taken seriously. Ever.

[quote]

[quote]

*— Have you ever renounced the doctrine of ‘armed jihad’ in any of your sermons?

[/quote]

Why should Muslims renounce the doctrine entirely? What if we are attacked? What if we are trying to be ethnically cleansed? In the minds of people like this, a more blunt question such as "do you support Jihad in Canada?" would never be asked, because the answer will not be favorable (almost always no). But no, they have pretensions to a pacifistic world view and if we don't live up to a pacifist ideal, we will be portrayed as violent. This dualism is nonsensical. First, they are hardly pacifists. Tarek Fatah has no problem waging a war against not only militants, but those who would prefer a conservative culture enforced on a willing population. This is apparent from his writings. Second, society as a whole is not pacifistic. The concept subscribed to is that of just war, and Jihad can be construed as a just war doctrine. Why should we renounce something, everybody else considers as their right? The question is made overly general to elicit the desired response, without delving into the reasons why the response was given.

[quote]

— Do you offer prayers in your mosque urging the congregation to ask Allah for Muslim victory over Kufaar (Christians and Jews)?

[/quote]

Never heard one myself. But, again, not exactly pushing people to pick up a gun and go on a random shooting spree. Extremism requires a different kind of indoctrination. Asking Allah for victory in Palestine is hardly the same as preparing one to fight a war in a land that they have citizenship in. We of Pakistani ancestry know this, given Pakistan's hsitory with Jihadis starting with the Afghan-Soviet war. We know how it works, how people are recruited and convinced of going to far flung places to do the bidding of their political masters. We know the deal...most Westerners don't.

[quote]

To fight malaria, we need to drain the swamps, not shoot down individual mosquitos. Long before the mosquito emerges, the larva is sustained in stagnant pools that allow the disease carrier to nourish and flourish.

[/quote]

Now how the hell is this (violent!) metaphor any different than a simple prayer asking God for victory over the Kuffar? Conservative Muslims are to be exterminated...I mean, it's right there....

To make a long story short, at best Tarek's goal is the social ostracization of conservative Muslims. To do this, we are made out to be unloyal fifth columnists, who are all secretly supportive of or waiting to become Jihadis. To this extent, he sets up a narrative of what it is to be an "acceptable" Muslim: on who is quiet, or who echos the liberal ethos verbatim of the society they find themselves in. It is insufficient to acknoweldge it as the dominate ehtos of society, one must actually subscribe to it (free thought is not a concern...so he's not a liberal, as you suggested). Anyone else is a threat.

Do you agree with that assessment of conservative Muslims?

Re: Sad but true...

......................................

Re: Sad but true...

that is fine...we are obviously far apart in our thinking process.for you i am nothing but another liberal fascist and for me your post is a plethora of apology-scented remarks compounded by a twisted logic .....but i will register my response to state my viewpoint

yes who cares whether muslims denounce or not..i dont....screw that denouncement because the problem is far more deep....we DO NOT OWE any explanation/denouncement to anyone..we actually owe some explanation to ourselves by asking some fundamental questions...

why we are we producing so many jaihadist movements and jihadst elemnts across the globe...

isnt alqaida a sad reality which has arms across the globe and their is no end to its supply-chain....

why have our masses become so extremist?

why did 9/11 and 7/7 happen...they were one of us who did that..why? and why 90% of muslims refuse to believe in 9/11......

and most importantly is everything just fine with our religion?

i know most of you want to kill me when i say that but that is what we ought to ask ourselves....just keep on stating that "our religion is the best but we are pathetic coz we dont practice it" is a worst type of naivety ...remember a product is known by its technology....if technology is weak, product cannot be the best....

we need to ask that why for last 800 years or so, muslims stopped practicing ijmah and qayas and maybe because of that our religion has become stagnant? i go to many muslim student association events here in the USA and whenever i ask them if they know anything about ijmah qayas, answer is always no....so yes we DO NOT OWE any explanation/denouncement to anyone..we owe it to ourselves but what do you expect from this community who passionately believe that 911 was done by the US govt and jews.............................................. .

ps: In Islamic jurisprudence, qiyāṣ (Arabic قياس) is the process of deductive analogy in which the ruling of the Sunnah and the Qur'an may be used as a means to solve or provide a response to a new problem that may arise.

Ijma is using concensus of scholars to solve new social/moral problems which will arise in different periods. The intent of ijam and qiyas is to make sure that religion remains aligned with the practical relaities of that period