Sad but true...

[phoenixdesi]

Re: Sad but true...

@picoico

Why should Muslims renounce the doctrine entirely? What if we are attacked? What if we are trying to be ethnically cleansed?

Never heard one myself. But, again, not exactly pushing people to pick up a gun and go on a random shooting spree. Extremism requires a different kind of indoctrination. Asking Allah for victory in Palestine is hardly the same as preparing one to fight a war in a land that they have citizenship in. We of Pakistani ancestry know this, given Pakistan's hsitory with Jihadis starting with the Afghan-Soviet war. We know how it works, how people are recruited and convinced of going to far flung places to do the bidding of their political masters. We know the deal...most Westerners don't.

i must say this is one of the most twisted and sad logic i have ever heard of....ok fine...these imams can say whatever they want to but since ISI is not running sponsored terrorist/jihadist camps in canda, usa and france, no hatred and jihadi mentality would ever creep in and no serious jihadis can be prepared!!!......la howl walla quwata billah

as if all UK based mulsim guys who did 7/7 in london were indoctrinated by ISI camps!!! they were effected by local mosques and al qaida literature on internet ...have you read that urdu article that i posted....in france, there are so many mosques managed and run by extremist groups who are spreading hatred via sermons....how conveniently you twisted everything.....bhai jan trend is to pollute young minds via lectures and then some of them will go travel to pakistan to find al qaida and get trained...pattern is pretty obvious....

plus forget everything.....isnt this highest level of beghariti, cheapness, selfishness and hypocrisy to come to these countries, use their secular cultures to promote your religion and then bash them in your sermons? just leave these countries for god sake if they are kafirs and bad....have some ghairat and sself respect...jis ka khatay ho, unhiee par thooktay ho.....

and fine dont denounce jihad...i am ok with that...but what u r proposing is selective jihadsim...who will chose what is right jihad and what is wrong jihad?...it is mind boggling that our ruining whole pakistan by this self-started jihadi mentality, we still support jihadi mentality one way or the other...

[phoenixdesi]

Re: Sad but true…

@picoico

Why should Muslims renounce the doctrine entirely? What if we are attacked? What if we are trying to be ethnically cleansed? In the minds of people like this, a more blunt question such as “do you support Jihad in Canada?” would never be asked, because the answer will not be favorable (almost always no). But no, they have pretensions to a pacifistic world view and if we don’t live up to a pacifist ideal, we will be portrayed as violent. This dualism is nonsensical. First, they are hardly pacifists. Tarek Fatah has no problem waging a war against not only militants, but those who would prefer a conservative culture enforced on a willing population. This is apparent from his writings. Second, society as a whole is not pacifistic. The concept subscribed to is that of just war, and Jihad can be construed as a just war doctrine. Why should we renounce something, everybody else considers as their right? The question is made overly general to elicit the desired response, without delving into the reasons why the response was given.

and by the way if we go by your logic then folks who did 7/7 were perfectly right to do it..they were protesting for ethnic cleansing of muslims in iraq and afghanistan…so do you support 7/7? please clarify and be honest…

here is some material from 7/7 bombings for you to read:

Two of the bombers made videotapes describing their reasons for becoming what they called “soldiers”. In a videotape broadcast by Al Jazeera on 1 September 2005, Mohammad Sidique Khan, described his motivation. The tape had been edited and also featured al-Qaeda member — and future leader — Ayman al-Zawahiri:[SUP][10]](7 July 2005 London bombings - Wikipedia)[/SUP]

[TABLE=“class: cquote”]

“
I and thousands like me are forsaking everything for what we believe. Our drive and motivation doesn’t come from tangible commodities that this world has to offer. Our religion is Islam, obedience to the one true God and following the footsteps of the final prophet messenger. Your democratically-elected governments continuously perpetuate atrocities against my people all over the world. And your support of them makes you directly responsible, just as I am directly responsible for protecting and avenging my Muslim brothers and sisters. Until we feel security you will be our targets and until you stop the bombing, gassing, imprisonment and torture of my people we will not stop this fight. We are at war and I am a soldier. Now you too will taste the reality of this situation.
”

A second part of the tape continues
[TABLE=“class: cquote”]

“
…I myself, I myself, I make dua (pray) to Allah… to raise me amongst those whom I love like the prophets, the messengers, the martyrs and today’s heroes like our beloved Sheikh Osama Bin Laden, Dr Ayman al-Zawahri and Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and all the other brothers and sisters that are fighting in the… of this cause.
”

On 6 July 2006, a videotaped statement by Shehzad Tanweer was broadcast by Al-Jazeera. In the video, which may have been edited[SUP][11]](7 July 2005 London bombings - Wikipedia)[/SUP] to include remarks by al-Zawahiri who appeared in Khan’s video, Tanweer said:
[TABLE=“class: cquote”]

“
What have you witnessed now is only the beginning of a string of attacks that will continue and become stronger until you pull your forces out of Afghanistan and Iraq. And until you stop your financial and military support to America and Israel.
”

Tanweer argued that the non-Muslims of Britain deserve such attacks because they voted for a government which “continues to oppress our mothers, children, brothers and sisters in Palestine, Afghanistan, Iraq and Chechnya.”[SUP][12]](7 July 2005 London bombings - Wikipedia)[/SUP]

[Ali_Syed]

Re: Sad but true...

I was following this tarek fatah guy on twitter, after bearing his nonsense for a few months I unfollowed him. We have religious extremists and then liberal extremists, this fellow falls in the latter category.

[ajazali]

Re: Sad but true...

I am meeting a lot Pakistanis these days who cannot read urdu ... i swear i could not believe it first...i went to strings show in NYC and attended several other local PTI events and all these mummy daddy types were born and raised in lahore/karachi and they cannot ready urdu...yet they claim to be mamay chacahy of pakistan!

are you one of them Waleed munnay?

PD, you have made this point several times that may be an alarming issue as well. That is because of our modern education system; do you think we really bother about our education system?

Did you learn Urdu by putting extra-curriculum efforts?

[Shamraz_Khan]

Re: Sad but true...

Whether you agree with this article or not, the points raised by the author are valid. The question is why Muslims immigrants are having problems in integrating into western societies? Just look at what is happening in the UK and the France. These mullahs come to these countries, enjoy freedoms and luxuries offered by them, yet they want to destroy their systems and impose their own hate-filled ideology on them.

[phoenixdesi]

Re: Sad but true...

I m glad that Im not one of them but I think you are one of them cz you are meeting them on regular basis

glad that is the case..now go read the urdu column that i posted....

[phoenixdesi]

Re: Sad but true…

@ajazali

PD, you have made this point several times that may be an alarming issue as well. That is because of our modern education system; do you think we really bother about our education system?

Did you learn Urdu by putting extra-curriculum efforts?

not sure what do you mean…yes we shd bother about our education system … that shd be NO 1 prioity

and i learnt how to read urdu coz i went to school/college in pakistan for first 20 years of my life…it is that simple…lol

i was reflecting on those idiots who went to school in pakistan for whole life but cannot read urdu…and there are many… i have one in my family to begin with (she went to a school in lahore called LGS or smethig like this) and when i spoke to all of her friends, most of them could not read urdu either!!! and they spent their whole life in lahore…lol and by the way, they all want a naya pakistan… lol … i guess a naya Pakistan where you dont speak or read in your national national language urdu…lol…

[picoico]

Re: Sad but true...

that is fine...we are obviously far apart in our thinking process.for you i am nothing but another liberal fascist and for me your post is a plethora of apology-scented remarks compounded by a twisted logic .....but i will register my response to state my viewpoint

Get a grip. I emoted no such thing towards you, my critique was of TF. Are you and he the same person?

You also have a trend of ignoring the points I put forth, and going forth on rants that have no bearing on what I was typing. I won't play that game.

I asked you a question. Answer it, or please don't respond at all.

[phoenixdesi]

Re: Sad but true...

You also have a trend of ignoring the points I put forth, and going forth on rants that have no bearing on what I was typing. I won't play that game.

I asked you a question. Answer it, or please don't respond at all.

do you know how to read? not being rude or anything....just curious....because i did respond to your "points" categorically ....... please go read first lol.. for you everything that does not conform to your agenda is a rant..i know your type very well!!!

and not sure what you said were "points"...seemed more like an emotional outburst compounded by a weird twisted logic....such as imams not exactly pushing people to pick up a gun and go on a random shooting spree...lol....kaya logic hai bhai...so unless ISI puts in place terrorist camps in usa and Canada, france, it is OK for imams to say stuff....

why am i not surprised...people like you are chronic taliban apologist who try to support jihandi mentality one way or the other....they will condemn anything but with a huge BUT followed by an apologetic saga ....like i said i know your type very well!!!

i am sure u r going to come back to blame me for a "reading comprehension problem "and then you will offer another twisted logic...ahh sounds too familiar...

anyway i have already answered your "points" above...

AND NO I DO NOT AGREE WITH YOUR 'ASSESSMENT' OF CONSERVATIVE MUSLIMS...and by the way, with all the points that you made, do you consider yourself a conservative Muslim?

[picoico]

Re: Sad but true...

AND NO I DO NOT AGREE WITH YOUR 'ASSESSMENT' OF CONSERVATIVE MUSLIMS...and by the way, with all the points that you made, do you consider yourself a conservative Muslim?

Thank you for answering the question. I've ignored the rest of your reply as it isn't relevant to the discussion at hand.

I will see if I have time to address the points you have raised, and superimposed onto the points that I was making.

[picoico]

Re: Sad but true...

that is fine...we are obviously far apart in our thinking process.for you i am nothing but another liberal fascist and for me your post is a plethora of apology-scented remarks compounded by a twisted logic

For the remainder of this discussion, I will ignore your ad hominem attacks, and irrelevant quips.

[quote]

yes who cares whether muslims denounce or not..i dont....screw that denouncement because the problem is far more deep....we DO NOT OWE any explanation/denouncement to anyone..we actually owe some explanation to ourselves by asking some fundamental questions...

[/quote]

That was not Mr. Fatah's point. So I reeally don't see how this follows from my critique.

[quote]

why we are we producing so many jaihadist movements and jihadst elemnts across the globe...

[/quote]

I don't think "we" are. In places like Pakistan, there is a concerted effort by certain government agencies. Here, we have organizations like Al-Qaeda trying to win over recruits. In either case, I think this happens in parallel to the mainstream.

The masses haven't become extremist, unless thinking that what certain western nations were doing in Iraq (especially) and Afghanistan was wrong. In that case, you're lowering the bar of what is and is not an extremist...is an extremist someone who contradicts Western ideology, military ambitions, etc? What is an extremest? I for one think it's simply someone who's willing to use brutal force to put forth their views.

This is where I disagree with Mr. Fatah's views.

[quote]

i know most of you want to kill me ....

[/quote]

This is a pretty serious accusation...you need to get a grip.

[quote]

we need to ask that why for last 800 years or so, muslims stopped practicing ijmah and qayas and maybe because of that our religion has become stagnant?

[/quote]

I don't think that's relevant to Mr. Fatah's article....I don't necessarily disagree with you though...

[chacha_Ghalib]

Re: Sad but true…

pakistani Canadian scholar??

I guess any bigot is a scholar to you as long as he agrees with you. You gotta tone it down quite a bit man. You seem to latch on to anything against muslims in general and pakistanis in particular. There is a point, pheonixdesi, when even those who agree to some of your views start dismissing you as a joke.

[phoenixdesi]

Re: Sad but true…

@chacha_Ghalib

pakistani Canadian scholar??

I guess any bigot is a scholar to you as long as he agrees with you

you can call him whatever you want to…i dont agree with majority of his viewpoints but i wont call him a bigot…actually i hardly call anyone a bigot … as long as someone is not blatantly making fun of someone’s religion, no one is a bigot… he is just expressing his viewpoint…i am sure you did not bother reading this post of mine:

"i* gave him hard time on twitter and declared him an “internet scholar” who wakes up every day and start googling to find news to malign islam and then start tweeting abt them…he pushed back but then banned me!**

so i know him (not personally) for many years, read his columns regularly and i read his book as well…and yes he is well read and makes his arguments passionately and convincingly but no i don’t respect him ..he is not balanced at all, and is a liberal extremist but what he is saying in this particular article is pretty accurate, as i see it…hence i decided to post it. thx*"

[phoenixdesi]

Re: Sad but true...

For the remainder of this discussion, I will ignore your ad hominem attacks, and irrelevant quips.

That was not Mr. Fatah's point. So I reeally don't see how this follows from my critique.

I don't think "we" are. In places like Pakistan, there is a concerted effort by certain government agencies. Here, we have organizations like Al-Qaeda trying to win over recruits. In either case, I think this happens in parallel to the mainstream.

The masses haven't become extremist, unless thinking that what certain western nations were doing in Iraq (especially) and Afghanistan was wrong. In that case, you're lowering the bar of what is and is not an extremist...is an extremist someone who contradicts Western ideology, military ambitions, etc? What is an extremest? I for one think it's simply someone who's willing to use brutal force to put forth their views.

This is where I disagree with Mr. Fatah's views.

This is a pretty serious accusation...you need to get a grip.

I don't think that's relevant to Mr. Fatah's article....I don't necessarily disagree with you though...

that is fine..we can agree to disagree....i was not reflecting on tarek's article at that point.....i was giving my viewpoint on the points that YOU raised...YOU picoico, NOT Tarek.

and I know no one here wants to kill me ( i hope so!!!)...it was just a phrase to say that i know I am pretty unpopular @ GS;)

[phoenixdesi]

Re: Sad but true…

@chacha_Ghalib

You gotta tone it down quite a bit man. You seem to latch on to anything against muslims in general and pakistanis in particular. There is a point, pheonixdesi, when even those who agree to some of your views start dismissing you as a joke.

I dont need your lecture my dear chacha…keep it to yourself… if i cross the boundary, mods will warn or ban me…and they know their job very well…

now show me one post where i am making fun of islam or pakistan … i have my OWN viewpoint and the way i want to see my country AND YES I DO NOT LIKE THE DIRECTION IN WHICH MY COUNTRY AND ITS COUNTRYMEN ARE HEADING … while religion shd be practiced absolutely freely at a personal level, it should not play any role whatsoever in running a state, as i see it … and i think I have always expressed my opinion in a historical and cultural context …

in a nutshell, I dont believe in Pakistan ka Matlab Kya لَآ إِلَـٰهَ إِلَّا ٱللَّه](http://www.facebook.com/pages/Pakistan-ka-Matlab-Kya-لَآ-إِلَـٰهَ-إِلَّا-ٱللَّه/116709258379909)..which means that i do not conform to Islamic viewpoint of “ijtamiat” where islam wants to define, interfere, delineate, and rule every aspect of a society… it is not fair to minorities plus we have way too many sects to begin with…

but what does it mean? that i am a bad Muslim or a bad Pakistani?

the fact remains that majority of Pakistanis and our establishment conform to the religious identity of pakistan one way or the other… and are taking/endorsing steps to enhance that image and viewpoint…so obviously, most of my posts will be considered against pakistan and so forth …

now if you have problem with my viewpoint, well too bad for you and your health especially if you have a high blood pressure!!! but make sure you take your medicine on time…i dont want you to expire because of me…