Re: One thing love about Islam/being muslim
she never made people kill each other and neither is she a rascist
Feminazi doesn't mean someone who kills or is a racist.......its a term for extremist feminists..
Re: One thing love about Islam/being muslim
Peace The Player
Well since the topic is about respect for women please can you show references in Hindu scriptures how respect for women is realised?
Sure..
In ancient India, women occupied a very important position, in fact a superior position to, men. It is a culture whose only words for strength and power are feminine -"Shakti'' means "power'' and "strength.'' All male power comes from the feminine. Literary evidence suggests that kings and towns were destroyed because a single woman was wronged by the state. For example, Valmiki's Ramayana teaches us that Ravana and his entire clan was wiped out because he abducted Sita. Veda Vyasa's Mahabharatha teaches us that all the Kauravas were killed because they humiliated Draupadi in public. Elango Adigal's Sillapathigaram teaches us Madurai, the capital of the Pandyas was burnt because Pandyan Nedunchezhiyan mistakenly killed her husband on theft charges.
In Vedic times women and men were equal as far as education and religion was concerned. Women participated in the public sacrifices alongside men. One text mentions a female rishi Visvara. Some Vedic hymns, are attributed to women such as Apala, the daughter of Atri, Ghosa, the daughter of Kaksivant or Indrani, the wife of Indra. Apparently in early Vedic times women also received the sacred thread and could study the Vedas. The Haritasmrti mentions a class of women called brahmavadinis who remained unmarried and spent their lives in study and ritual. Panini's distinction between arcarya (a lady teacher) and acaryani (a teacher's wife), and upadhyaya (a woman preceptor) and upadhyayani ( a preceptor's wife) indicates that women at that time could not only be students but also teachers of sacred lore. He mentions the names of several noteworthy women scholars of the past such as Kathi, Kalapi, and Bahvici. The Upanishads refer to several women philosophers, who disputed with their male colleagues such as Vacaknavi, who challenged Yajnavalkya. The Rig Veda also refers to women engaged in warfare. One queen Bispala is mentioned, and even as late a witness as Megasthenes (fifth century B.C. E.) mentions heavily armed women guards protecting Chandragupta's palace.
Re: Respect of Women
Peace The Player
This is very interesting and good to hear, I feel that there are very chivalrous things done in Hindu lore to protect the honour of women. I don't however understand or agree that levelling whole towns for a single woman is justified. What scriptural translations do you have on the above points?
You mentioned the early Vedic times women received the "holy thread" what justification was in place to change that beautiful practice?
I don't understand how heavily armed female guards is respecting women ... I'm not saying it disrespects them either ... I just don't think it's relevant.
Re: Respect of Women
Peace The Player
This is very interesting and good to hear, I feel that there are very chivalrous things done in Hindu lore to protect the honour of women. I don't however understand or agree that levelling whole towns for a single woman is justified. What scriptural translations do you have on the above points?
You mentioned the early Vedic times women received the "holy thread" what justification was in place to change that beautiful practice?
I don't understand how heavily armed female guards is respecting women ... I'm not saying it disrespects them either ... I just don't think it's relevant.
I just gave you some diverse examples - how women were revered/protected/given equal status or higher. I will post some scriptural translations if I can find them online.
Hinduism has evolved over time to try and stay relevant in the current day & age. Unfortunately, some good practices of the past have been lost in the process to modernize.
Re: Respect of Women
Please explain SATI; when a recently widowed woman used to either voluntarily or by use of force and coercion would have immolated herself on her husband’s funeral pyre.
Ofcourse, you know which religion it was always associated with.
Re: Respect of Women
I just gave you some diverse examples - how women were revered/protected/given equal status or higher. I will post some scriptural translations if I can find them online.
Hinduism has evolved over time to try and stay relevant in the current day & age. Unfortunately, some good practices of the past have been lost in the process to modernize.
Peace The Player
You're right ... But to me it seems that Hindu scriptures are mostly a narrative of what had happened, but can you determine from them what you need to do all the time as followers? I'm looking for injunctions orders or rules or laws that can't broken. For example it makes a nice story to say so and so King did this for his wife, but does that ever translate to - this should be done by all?
Re: Respect of Women
In addition to the above, please do tell me the difference between women belonging to the following groups:
Re: Respect of Women
Peace The Player
You're right ... But to me it seems that Hindu scriptures are mostly a narrative of what had happened, but can you determine from them what you need to do all the time as followers? I'm looking for injunctions orders or rules or laws that can't broken. For example it makes a nice story to say so and so King did this for his wife, but does that ever translate to - this should be done by all?
Hinduism does not have any "rules". There are general guidelines/narratives/examples/schools of thought that people choose to follow. It is a collection of diverse traditions and does not have a single founder like Christianity or Islam do. A central concept of Hinduism is *Dharma *i.e. righteous behavior.
A common misconception about Hinduism is that there are "many Gods". That is not the case. There is only one God, who at different points in time has taken on different forms. Those stories themselves are teachings of the religion. For example one of the central themes/learnings of Ramayana is human behavior/conduct ( eg. Lord Rama's conduct as a son, husband, brother etc. Similary there are teachings/lessons in Mahabharata.
A person does not become a "non-Hindu" simply because he does not follow a certain rule. Similarly, you can chose to follow Hindu beliefs but there is no way to convert to Hinduism. You have to be born a Hindu.
Re: Respect of Women
Not sure what your question is, since you have provided an explanation of Sati here. Sati is not a religious custom, even though it is associated with Hinduism.
Pls see here for a detailed history/background on Sati -
Re: Respect of Women
Hindu religious literature, such as the Rig Veda, suggests that the original varna system was based on a flexible system, where people joined a varna and a related occupation based on their skills, qualities, and nature. However, over time, the varna system transformed into a rigid caste system, preventing the ‘lower’ classes (also called the ‘backward castes’) from rising. This caste system has gone beyond Hindus and includes Dalit or lower caste people in other religions like **Islam](Islam - Wikipedia), **Christianity](Christianity - Wikipedia), **Sikhism](Sikhism - Wikipedia), etc. in India, Pakistan](Pakistan - Wikipedia) and other countries in the **Indian subcontinent](Indian subcontinent - Wikipedia). Discrimination against classes began as a result of this rigid fixing of the caste system. Also, religious literature suggests that the inclusion of Dalits (‘untouchables’) outside of the caste system was a later addition, not part of the original system
Re: Respect of Women
it's all very confusing.
Is it correct to say that Hinduism is not a religion since there are no rules and regulations?
Also, how do you know about the Dharma (righteous conduct) when there are no rules?
Re: Respect of Women
Is it correct to say that Hinduism is not a religion since there are no rules and regulations?
Where does it say that religion needs to have rules and regulations ?
Merriam-Webster defines religion as -
1. a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices **
2.a cause, principle, or **system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
Religion is made up of beliefs, not laws/rules.
Also, how do you know about the Dharma (righteous conduct) when there are no rules?
As I mentioned in my earlier post, Hindu teachings are conveyed through examples and stories. I have a fundamental disconnect with a belief system which is so rigid that you are not allowed to question customs/practices irrespective of whether they are relevant today or not. By not having rigidity, Hinduism allows its followers the flexibility to adapt it to their daily lives which IMHO is the beauty of Hinduism.
Re: Respect of Women
Hinduism does not have any "rules". There are general guidelines/narratives/examples/schools of thought that people choose to follow.
A common misconception about Hinduism is that there are "many Gods". That is not the case. There is only one God, who at different points in time has taken on different forms.
Peace The Player
Part of having rules is to have absolutes. Something that no one can differ from. Your sentences above red and green show a strangeness that I am finding difficult to overcome. If it is acceptable for people to follow their own school of thought and one or more of the schools believe in multiple gods then making the statement "a common misconception" is wrong. It would only be a misconception according to your understanding and according to their understanding on the basis that their opinion is valid many gods are allowed. Thus we have the problem that two groups are equally valid but one says One God the other says many gods and we arrive at the paradox of how two mutually exclusive and opposite things can be true at the same time.
Even by making the statement "A common misconception ... " you are already leaning towards the concept of "rules".
Re: Respect of Women
Peace The Player
Part of having rules is to have absolutes. Something that no one can differ from. Your sentences above red and green show a strangeness that I am finding difficult to overcome. If it is acceptable for people to follow their own school of thought and one or more of the schools believe in multiple gods then making the statement "a common misconception" is wrong. It would only be a misconception according to your understanding and according to their understanding on the basis that their opinion is valid many gods are allowed. Thus we have the problem that two groups are equally valid but one says One God the other says many gods and we arrive at the paradox of how two mutually exclusive and opposite things can be true at the same time.
Even by making the statement "A common misconception ... " you are already leaning towards the concept of "rules".
No Hindu scripture talks about "multiple" Gods. God has different forms but ultimately he is one - *Brahman. *I do concede however that not having rigidity allows the common misconception amongst followers and outsiders that there are many Gods. But if one reads the scriptures or religious texts (eg. Bhagwad Geeta) it only refers to one God. One can chose to pray to God in one form (Rama) and not another (Shiva), but that will not make you less of a Hindu. This flexibility according to me is a strength and not a weakness of the religion.
And talking about misconceptions, even religions with a rigid set of rules like Islam have misconception. A common one these days is the interpretation of jehad.
Re: Respect of Women
There is no need for anyone of us to be defensive about our religions. Women were treated as objects and commodities in many cultures and that was also true in Arab culture. Islam did not bring an overnight change but made people realize that gender, color, nationality do not make anyone better than anyone else.
Plus you have to understand that within 23 years, Islam changed the Arab culture from burying their infant daughters to looking at their daughters as the doorway to paradise, and making parents proud of having daughters. That alone in my opinion was a huge mind shift and Islam should get the credit of that
THIS
Re: Respect of Women
Peace The Player
A rigid structure can have misconceptions ... hence Islam ... but a fluid structure can't have misconceptions they are all opinions ... That is the point I'm trying to make. However we are obliged to have rigidity because in the case in fluid structures when two opinions become contradictory one opinion will pervade over another. This is what you are doing ... based on a perfectly sound basis that certain concepts are scriptural and others are not the ones that are scriptural and also older or closer to source should be given greater credibility. I believe that to be a universal rule of good scholarly prudence to discern the truth.
I mean you say there are no rules, but some people will say there are rules ... You say in post #28 "there is no way to convert to Hinduism" is that not a rule? And if in scripture it can be shown that God said you must do so and so ... why is not considered a rule to follow? Or are you saying that Vedic scriptures do not say this?
I'm derailing my own thread ... but I guess talking about Hinduism is not really that easy.
Re: Respect of Women
What did you think?
it's all about derailling...
soon we will jump to the Book "Clash Of Civilization"...
Re: Respect of Women
Peace The Player
A rigid structure can have misconceptions ... hence Islam ... but a fluid structure can't have misconceptions they are all opinions ... That is the point I'm trying to make. However we are obliged to have rigidity because in the case in fluid structures when two opinions become contradictory one opinion will pervade over another. This is what you are doing ... based on a perfectly sound basis that certain concepts are scriptural and others are not the ones that are scriptural and also older or closer to source should be given greater credibility. I believe that to be a universal rule of good scholarly prudence to discern the truth.
I mean you say there are no rules, but some people will say there are rules ... You say in post #28 "there is no way to convert to Hinduism" is that not a rule? And if in scripture it can be shown that God said you must do so and so ... why is not considered a rule to follow? Or are you saying that Vedic scriptures do not say this?
I'm derailing my own thread ... but I guess talking about Hinduism is not really that easy.
I think we are getting hung up on semantics. The Hindu belief is that there is one God who has multiple forms. People are free to worship God in all or some of those forms. However, saying its a rule implies that there is a consequence for breaking the rule which is not the case here. The misconception arises when the uninitiated say that there are multiple Gods in Hinduism - thats not correct. No Hindu religious text says that there are multiple Gods. This relationship between God & his multiple forms is difficult for outsiders (and even some Hindus) to understand.
Similarly, there is no formal way to convert to Hinduism like there is for Islam or Christianity. You can argue that by adhering to Hindu beliefs one becomes a Hindu, but there is no rule/process for converting.
The only rule in Hinduism is that there are no rules. There are only beliefs & traditions.
Re: One thing love about Islam/being muslim
The proof that Islam gives respect to women is evident but in order to show that we have to agree the terms to the proof. Let's say that we compare 5 different topics of your choosing about women in 5 of the worlds major religions and ask the women which they would choose and then we have "proof" that Islam gives respect to women. That should be a good test don't you think? If so let's start another thread on this.
How about equality between men and women ? Can you show how men and women are considered equal in Islam.
Re: One thing love about Islam/being muslim
Under the main heading of respect for women, would you pls shed some light on the concept of 'Niyog' and 'Sati' in hinduism
In ancient Hindu society there existed a practice known as Niyog Pratha. Pratha means practice. A woman who was childless because her husband was impotent was allowed to conceive through her brother-in-law. The child belonged to the couple and the brother-in-law had no claim over it. In our society today, surrogate motherhood is not unheard of. Niyog Pratha was surrogate fatherhood. It was much less complicated, legally and emotionally, than surrogate motherhood.
Such practices were not unique to Hinduism. One finds references to them in the Old Testament. Deuteronomy Chapter 25 Verse 5 reads, “If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husband's brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husband's brother unto her.” Genesis Chapter 16 Verse 2 permits surrogate motherhood through the maid.
I have discussed about Sati in an earlier post.