Re: Respect for Durand Line: A must for peace in Afghanistan
btw,i was reading the interview of the socalled"Pakistani leader of Talebab" wanted to know what kind of following does he have among the average citizen in NWFP.
Re: Respect for Durand Line: A must for peace in Afghanistan
You guys forget the other "signficant" contribution made by pashtoons- Almost single-handedly creating the Bangladesh problem, fighting for Pakhtunkhawa for ages, living like 7th century in the 21st century, following tribal laws while ignoring pakistani laws, thinking that others- sindhi, punjabi, mahajirs are low caste ppl. Only those Pashtoons who migrated to Punjab are decent.
Re: Respect for Durand Line: A must for peace in Afghanistan
No offence but u just proved urself to be a racist person.No wonder when ppl get surprised that some o fthese tribal practises (karo kari) are based more on paganistic ideas rather than Islamic.
If ur so proud of appearances than i have news for u,the biggest sex slave workers come from eastern europe and they are damn hot.So without any progress/resources thats all that is good for.
And to be honest,historically, the subcontinent was much richer than its neighbours, all the western people did was raid it once in 25 yrs and then live off it for another 50.Read history,thats why u dont find any taj mahals or grand forts,bcoz there was no resources,no agriculture to sustain it.
EVEN THE present day afghanistan,all of it coulf never have been one country.There were dynasties being set up every 100 yrs,taking over these areas,trying to impress the Abassids and then the Saffavids.
Sorryif i went over board,but when ppl say ignorant comments,u just cant help urself.
Re: Respect for Durand Line: A must for peace in Afghanistan
BTW,i was under the impression that the afghans and ppl who lived in Peshawar are different.Peshawar was a walled city and these ppl would come in to work in the city and then had to leave at night.peshawar had local ppl and families like the parachas etc.
Re: Respect for Durand Line: A must for peace in Afghanistan
That has to be one of the most historically baseless posts ever. Afghanistan ahs been the home to many civilizations: Bactria, Arachosia, etc. Lets not forget the birthplace of the zoroastrian prophet, Zarthust, was in Balkh. The tajiks of today were the decendents of the Samanid dynasty, and if it wasn't for them the persians would have been speaking arabic by now. The samanids had a huge hadn in reviing persian culture. Sure teh subcontinent is a rich cultural place no doubt, but Afghanistan is no second place, even today many archaelogists have found ancient bactrian coins, coins during the times of sakas, etc. Afghanistan was kept politically as one area during the time of Ahmad Shah Baba, and yes for most of its time the people have enjoyed a certain amount of independence. PLus Peshawar prior to the unholy durand treaty was the winter capital of Afghanistan. The former king of Afghanistan Dost Muhammad Khan considered Peshawar an integral part of Afghan territory, in fact he considered Afghan land incomplete with its gateway Peshawar. I don't recall Abbassid ever taking control of Afghanistan, and Safavids had little control over Afghanistan, in fatc it was an Afghan(pashtun), Mirwais Hotkai Baba, who overthrew the Safavid empire.
Re: Respect for Durand Line: A must for peace in Afghanistan
I never said they were under the direct control of the Abbasid,it was dynasties who just gave nominal support to the powerless caliph,for instance the ghaznavids.When i say rich,i mean in terms of productivity and we can all agree that subcontinent was far more prosperous in this respect.btw,i might have overreacted in my last message,it was a reaction,i have alot of respect for the hard working pathans in Pakistan,i really mean it.
Re: Respect for Durand Line: A must for peace in Afghanistan
fair enough.
Re: Respect for Durand Line: A must for peace in Afghanistan
.....
Re: Respect for Durand Line: A must for peace in Afghanistan
this sounds like you are palnning to kick out not the vast majority of pakistanis but the government too.
your last sentence perfectly describes life within pakistan today.
by the way when the smuggling has stopped where wil most of you buy more expensive goods from?
when the robberies stop who wil the police take their income from? remember the pakistani police know beforehand who have committed them.
crime.
as for londabaazi. i thought this forum was a family forum not a smutty forum. i wont question how you know that most afghans are LB. i suppose thats your own private and perosnal matter :)
Re: Respect for Durand Line: A must for peace in Afghanistan
the vast majority of afghans have better things tot hink about for now.
the sad fact is that a PARTICULAR member on this forum raises issues or non-issues relating to afghans/pakhtuns in order to try slience them. what he does nt realise is that he will make pashtuns think even more negatively about pakistan.
there is little chance in the near future any pakhtun nationalist movement would start. why anitobl is so scared i do not know. well what his reasons are for continuously postins stuff about pashtuns is something i can only guess.
the most serious threat to pakistan comes from sindh and balochistan. and there isa civil war in balochistan right now.
Re: Respect for Durand Line: A must for peace in Afghanistan
i dont know why you need sexual language to help you describe the worlds affairs.
let me tel the reality. a sad reality.
the americans are KEEN and adamant afghanistan stays united and stable. their policies are of support to afghanistan.
on the other hand america and even afghanistan are issuing threats to pakistan weekly and pakistan obeys. america has no interest in making sure pakistan survives. so whose rigging who, i dont know.
Re: Respect for Durand Line: A must for peace in Afghanistan
Pashtun regions of Pakistan and Afghanistan should join to make a greater Pashtunistan/Afghanistan and the northern non-Pashtun/non-Afghan regions of presentday Afghanistan can merge with their ethnic countries bordering our north.
Pakistan can be left to a narrow stretch across the greater Afghanistan and India border and then because of idiots like antiobl Sindh will join India or become an independant state, Kashmir and northern areas will be annexed by India in their entirety because batty boy PAF wouldn't be able to defend it on their own and then all that will be left is Punjab and the sardarjis are going to com into Lahore...
Re: Respect for Durand Line: A must for peace in Afghanistan
Commie wet dreams. You lost Afghanistan and still didn't learn. 30 years on, and one foreign power or the other is ruling Afghan/pushtoon @rse. These mighty Afghan warriors then abuse their own women, destroy their own heritage in Bamyan, and commit attrocities against each other.
Go check out your shiny city of Kabul before f@arting against Pakistan.
Re: Respect for Durand Line: A must for peace in Afghanistan
Views on the issue of Pak-Afghan border:
– Following independence, the NWFP voted to join Pakistan in a referendum in 1947. However, Afghanistan’s loya jirga of 1949 declared the Durand Line invalid as they saw it as ex parte on their side since British India ceased to exist in 1947 with the independence of Pakistan. This had no tangible effect as there has never been a move to enforce such a declaration. Additionally, world courts have universally upheld uti possidetis juris, i.e, binding bilateral agreements with or between colonial powers are “passed down” to successor independent states, as with most of Africa. A unilateral declaration by one party has no effect; boundary changes must be made bilaterally. Thus, the Durand Line boundary remains in effect today as the international boundary and is recognized as such by nearly all nations. Despite pervasive internet rumors to the contrary, U.S. Dept. of State and the British Foreign Commonwealth Office documents and spokespersons have recently confirmed that the Durand Line, like virtually all international boundaries, has no expiration date, nor is their any mention of such in any Durand Line documents. (The 1921 treaty expiration refers only to the 1921 agreements.)
– Afghanistan was created in 1747 AD by the Punjab-born (city of Multan in present-day Pakistan) Pashtun named Ahmed Shah Abdali. The fact is Abdali conquered the Tajiks, Hazaras, Uzbeks, Turkmens, Baluchis, Punjabis, etc. This was a forceful occupation of various lands/peoples subdued to the Abdali monarchy. Per Encyclopedia Britannica, “Ahmad Shah began by capturing Ghazni from the Ghilzai Pashtuns, and then wresting Kabul from the local ruler. In 1749 the Mughal ruler ceded sovereignty over Sindh Province and the areas west of the Indus River to Ahmad Shah in order to save his capital from Afghan attack. Ahmad Shah then set out westward to take possession of Herat, which was ruled by Nadir Shah’s grandson, Shah Rukh. Herat fell to Ahmad after almost a year of siege and bloody conflict, as did Mashhad (in present-day Iran). Ahmad next sent an army to subdue the areas north of the Hindu Kush. In short order, the powerful army brought under its control the Turkmen, Uzbek, Tajik, and Hazara tribes”.
– Now many people can argue that Afghanistan’s creation was illegal because the land belonged to Iran-based Safavids/Sassanians/etc and India-based Mughals/Mauryas/etc until Abdali’s creation in 1747 AD. But the fact of the matter is people and its lands constantly evolve to new geo-political environments changing boundaries and nationhoods. Prior to 1747 AD, the region of Afghanistan was ruled by Persian Achaemenians and Sassanians, Greeks, Scythians, Hepthalites, Arabs, Turks, Mongols, and many others (currently by the USA). Mauryas and Mughals ruled a large portion of Afghanistan (almost all of Pashtun areas). By the way, the Muslim rulers of South Asia were “mostly” Turks originating from Central Asia who also ruled the Pashtuns.
– Afghanistan’s creation was legal in the same way Pakistan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, etc. were created later on. The boundaries between Iran and Afghanistan, Afghanistan and Pakistan, Afghanistan and Tajikistan/Uzbekistan/Turkmenistan, etc were created by the British and Russians. So the few Afghans beating the drum of Durand Line (Pak-Afghan boundary) is pointless. By the same token, all boundaries of Afghanistan are questionable. Why should only Pashtun areas of Pakistan be merged to Afghanistan? Afghanistan is a multi-ethnic country like Pakistan. Should Tajikistan lay claim to Tajik lands of Afghanistan, Uzbekistan to Uzbek lands in Afghanistan, Turkmenistan to Turkmen lands in Afghanistan, etc.?
– The ethnicity-based countries like Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, & Turkmenistan have much more stronger claims to Tajik, Turkmen, & Uzbek lands of Afghanistan because Afghanistan is a multi-ethnic country like Pakistan, so Afghanistan has no right to claim only Pashtun lands of Pakistan. How about Pakistan claiming Pashtun lands of Afghanistan instead since Pashtuns are being oppressed in Afghanistan, Pashtuns in Pakistan are comparatively much more prosperous, and Afghans are desperate to flee to Pakistan.
– If Durand Line of boundary is artificial, then not only Pashtun lands of Pakistan, but “all” of Pakistan should merge to Afghanistan because the “original” Afghanistan included today’s Pakistan and Afghanistan. And if Durand Line of boundary is artificial then how valid are the boundaries between Afghanistan and Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Iran, etc… or all countries of Middle East (Sykes-Picot treaty).. created by former European colonialists such as the British, French, and Russians. Lets not forget the “Great Game” on how the Brits and Ruskies created Afghanistan’s boundaries as a buffer zone between them. We know how the Russians (Soviets) created Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, and Turkmenistan… now on the Afghan-Iran boundaries created by the British/Russians, according to Encyclopedia Britannica, “In 1863 Dost Mohammad retook Herat from Iran with British acquiescence… The boundary with Iran was firmly delineated in 1904, replacing the ambiguous line made by a British commission in 1872”.
– In 1947 and beyond the Congressite followers of Badshah Khan continued to ask the Gandhi question “The Pathans should have had a choice between Afghanistan, Pakistan and India”. The Muslim League had correctly argued that the British had no right to ask that particular question, since they did not ask Nagaland if it wanted to join Burma, and it did not ask Tamil Nadu if it wanted to join Sri Lanka. Thus the Durand Line became the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan.
– Knowing the bitter enmity between Tajiks/Hazaras and Pashtuns in Afghanistan, Tajiks/Hazaras will never allow Afghanistan to become 75% Pashtun (from 40%) by only integrating Pashtun areas of Pakistan. The current Tajik-dominated Afghan govt has been oppressing Pashtuns in Afghanistan. In fact there are Tajik bigoted nationalists who are fiercely anti-Pashtun/Afghanistan: http://members.tripod.com/~khorasan/Miscellaneous/why.html And when the Afghan Pashtuns ruled Afghanistan under Taliban they massacred thousands of Hazaras in Mazar-e-Sharif, and others.
– The word Afghan in the past might have meant Pashtun, but that meaning evolved to another one. Today, an Afghan is defined as only a citizen of present-day Afghanistan regardless of ethnicity. There are countless other examples on how a word’s meaning evolves to a different one over time.
– NWFP of Pakistan is not all Pashtun, large areas of this land are Hindkowi, Shina, Khowari, Gujjar, etc. most linguistically related to Punjabi. Majority of Baluchistan is Baluch who also have bitter rivalry with the Afghans and do not want to be part of Afghanistan.
– Millions of Pakistani Pashtuns inhabit in the provinces of Punjab and Sindh such as cities of Karachi, Lahore, Islamabad… not to mention millions of Afghan refugees in Pakistan. Since the 1980s the Durand Line has been a porus line for men and material. During the Soviet occupation of Western Afghanistan, some portions of Eastern Afghanistan (at least the Pashtun portions) literally became part of free Afghanistan, a satellite of Pakistan. 6 million Afghans came to Pakistan as refugees. One million Afghan children were born in Pakistan.
– Pashtuns have much more in common with Pakistanis than with Afghans (plus there are much more Pashtuns in Pakistan than in Afghanistan). Pashtuns are linguistically Indo-Iranian. Pakistanis are 99% Indo-Iranian whereas Afghans are only 84% Indo-Iranian. Punjabi, Sindhi, Baluchi, Kashmiri, Urdu, Pashto, & Dari are Indo-Iranian languages which means they are related to each other and have a common origin. About 16% of Afghans are linguistically Altaic such as the Uzbeks, Turkomens, etc. These Altaic Afghans are linguistically distinct and unrelated to the Indo-Iranians. Additionally, Pashtuns are racially mostly Caucasoid. Pakistanis are also mostly racially Caucasoid (mixed with a little Dravidoid blood). On the other hand, Afghans are only 66% Caucasoids. Hazaras, Turkomens, Uzbeks, etc. are mostly Mongoloid by race.
Re: Respect for Durand Line: A must for peace in Afghanistan
Do we have to go through this again? lol come on, its been dealt with.
Re: Respect for Durand Line: A must for peace in Afghanistan
Well I think Pakistan and Afghanistan should create federation. There should be soft borders like EU conutries. People of both countries should live in peace and harmony. Afghanistan and Pakistan share so much in common. I am all for love and peace.
Re: Respect for Durand Line: A must for peace in Afghanistan
This whole debate over Afghanistan is soooo damn tired and old.. Lets say this, those who want to be Afghan, then go ahead and do it, and those that dont, then dont...
Re: Respect for Durand Line: A must for peace in Afghanistan